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Behavior Around Outsiders - 9/28/2005 7:04:20 AM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline 		I thought that Rover posed a good question on another thread. The way that he approached it got it pulled. I'll see if I can reformulate the question to be in line with the posting guidelines:

If lifestyle folk (to include Goreans and others who claim to live an alternative lifestyle all the time) change their behavior around outsiders, such as friends, family, employers, etc. who don't share their lifestyle, can they truly be said to live their way of life "24/7", or are they just kidding themselves? Are they really just scene-players who have their game-face on most of the time when others aren't around?

Rover made the point that folks in the BDSM world who engage in power exchange consider it proper to behave differently around those who don't share their ways, and wondered if Goreans thought and did similarly.

I'll answer later when I have the time.

_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Behavior Around Outsiders - 9/28/2005 7:27:19 AM   
Nosathro


Posts: 1471
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline 		Tal I have read about this topic at other sites. For me, I can be Gorean 24/7...No I don't wear Tunics or carry a sword, but I can act with Honor and Respect that is what Goreans held highest. In my job if they found out what I do I would be fired, such is the real world. I think being Gorean or Master, slave or whatever is more of a state of mind.

I wish You Well

Nosathro

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Behavior Around Outsiders - 9/28/2005 7:27:55 AM   
nephandi


Posts: 3930
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		i belive to do whatever is practical, it is often werry unpractical to play up alot on the D/s dynamic in public, peronaly i dont care, as i have no job nor coworkers and most of my frinds and pepole of an aceptable nature, but for others it can cause all sorts of problems. i belive that most 24/7 relationships keeps some of the dynamic but tone it down a bit when in public. It is just like i dont go out in public normaly wearing a full black wizards robe and sporting a ritual dagger, it is must more practical to wear jeans and T shirts, and i am no less of a real magic pracitioner for it, just like i usualy dont start french kissing my Dom in public but do give him smal kisses, that dont mean i love him any less, only that one try to be a bit proper.

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Behavior Around Outsiders - 9/28/2005 7:44:48 AM   
KatyLied


Posts: 12961
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Thank you for posting this...I was curious about the content when I saw it was deleted.

(in reply to nephandi)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Behavior Around Outsiders - 9/28/2005 7:58:33 AM   
SirSix72


Posts: 347
Joined: 7/14/2005
Status: offline 		Tal,
Personally I was doing some thinking last night and brought this question into a D's discussion roo and asked there about this role play-thing. I did recieve some interesting answers since the basis of BDSM is kink,,, can you carry kink outside of the home,,,,,,and isnt kink based on sexual activity,,if so then how in the world can you carry a sexual based society outside of the home into the general population without stoping being sexual because society as a whole dosent allow sex in public,,,ie...against the laws,,,,and another question what in the world do they teach a submissive,,,,all I see in D's discussion rooms is different types of kink or toys that they will all play with,,,unlike what a kajarii is trained in many different things,,,My life with my kajarii isnt based upon kink,,,,it is to better her as I have her going to school to improve her educational level as well as have trained her to take care of the household and children upon My having to travel for work,,,she writed in her journal everyday not to tell me of the kinky desires,,,but how her day has been,,,,,, I didnt base this Master/slave relationship upon the notion of Me having sex when I wanted it,,,I think all adults know that a relationship based upon the notion of nothing more than kinky sex is doomed to fail because one will want to be more extreme and then the soft limits which are really just emotional boundries that have yet to be overcome gives the submissive a chance to top her Dom so to speak,,,ie I have seen it written and said in many places in the last decade that a Dominate may shed His role upon that the submissive is upset because of a "scene",,,ie playing in a scene is considered role playing,,,,I dont walk around in a scene 24/7 based on kinky sex,,,therefore I am no role player,,I am a Warrior,,I live by My honor and the honor of my word bond between my brothers


Master Six

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Behavior Around Outsiders - 9/28/2005 10:19:43 AM   
lisaSea


Posts: 340
Joined: 8/27/2005
Status: offline 		Greetings Masters, Mistresses and slaves

Master Six and Master Nosathro,

Thank you. Your posts illustrated so clearly how Master defines our life. It is a mindset. While each man will run his home according to the pleasures he enjoys, beneath it all, rock bottom...it is a way of life. This forum is showing me that there are so many variations within even the word of "gorean" itself...proof that men will do what men will do..in their own wonderful ways :)

One does not need kink to be gorean, so thank you Master Six for your words which said it so well. Our behavior around outsiders remains the same as it does in private because we have not slipped into any form of scene or kink.

*smiles brightly*

Thank you.

lisa{Sea's}

_____________________________

I prefer to think of it as aged to perfection, rather then just plain getting older.

http://www.geocities.com/house_of_sea

(in reply to SirSix72)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Behavior Around Outsiders - 9/28/2005 11:20:13 AM   
Belladonna82


Posts: 171
Joined: 7/14/2005
Status: offline 		Greetings Masters and Mistresses

bella is SirSix72's slave and she really enjoyed reading the topics here.The Gorean lifestyle is a mindset and can be quite a beautiful lifestyle.Living the lifestyle comes with some amount of decrestion.It can not be shown to all,for not everyone understands.bella hopes all new to this lifestyle takes to study the old ways,cause as history tells us...History can make or break the future.bella wishes all a happy life and may the lifestyle always live on.

Forever in servitude,
bella

_____________________________

Blessed be!

(in reply to lisaSea)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Behavior Around Outsiders - 9/28/2005 1:21:18 PM   
SirSix72


Posts: 347
Joined: 7/14/2005
Status: offline 		Tal,

I thought I would update my previous post on the subject of Role Playing. I said that I didnt base the relatioship I have with my kajarii. This dosent mean that i'm not kinky by anymeans. There are certain things that in the BDSM realm of things I do like. I apply them when teaching My kajarii to pleasure Me. There seems to be some great debate that if We as Goreans find things kinky then We should be classified as being under the BDSM umbrella. As I see that alot of the Gorean people are trying to break out from underneath this wide Umbrella of BDSM. This is neither here nor there for Me. Just because I may find somethings that are a practice within BDSM dosent give anyone a right to say that because we as Goreans adopt some of your kinks when we teach our kajarii that we all of the sudden fall under the big BDSM umbrella. To each his own is what I try to say as much as I can. The only thing I do preach is that no matter where you decide that your needs and desires will take you, try and educate yourself outside of the premisis of a chat room where role playing is a 24/7 operation. Im not saying anyone in paticular because there are just as many Gorean Chatrooms that have the same thing spinning off in them as does BDSM chatrooms. I believe that there we are about as equal as equal can get. The main problem is finding those few that have the ability to seperate role play from reality. If you have been around any of the lifestyles for more than a couple of years then you can start to distinguish those that have this ability. It is a great thing to be kinky, play with toys and others, but you can only carry kink and fetishes outside of the home only so far.This is what seperates role playing from reality. Those that tend to role play lose a sence of what they were looking for in the first place because all the focus is on the scene they wish to enact with a partner. This is a particular kink or fetish only for play. Then they go searching for the "one" that fits into that tight little box of playfulness they wish to fill. Then once the scene is over they shed their roles as either Dominant or submissive talk about what each others needs and desires are and began searching for the next scene that will fulfill the combined desires. Here is another point in which I can pick out a role player, when a submmissive or slave types or says "my Master" or "my Dom" this shows ownership of the named person. When I first came into this realm a long time ago I was looking for something in my life that was missing in being kinky. What I was searching so hard to find is Honor. When you find people that can honor their words or their places in life then you begin to make life long relationships that focus on the structure that comes along with being Gorean. I tend to look for something life long and not from scene to scene or partner to partner.

Master Six

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Behavior Around Outsiders - 9/28/2005 1:25:26 PM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Is it ok if I'm answering some of these as a non-gorean?

For me it is because who I am isn't about behavior, it's about orientation. Someone isn't more slavely because they sleep on their left side versus their right and they aren't more slavely because they work at a corporate job versus staying at home naked all day.

To me the point of slavery is to allow another's authority to rule over yourself. This authority is present no matter where you are or what you are doing. If the owner involved wants the slave to behave productively and positively no matter what environment she is in, then she'd be disobeying if she caused a ruckus or negativity by behaving inappropriately.

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Behavior Around Outsiders - 9/28/2005 1:57:01 PM   
SirSix72


Posts: 347
Joined: 7/14/2005
Status: offline 		I have to give you some props emeraldslave,,,well said little one

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Behavior Around Outsiders - 9/28/2005 3:05:24 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		BDSM is not based upon kink. BDSM is an umbrella term that includes two main branches, sensation play (the Bondage/Discipline and Sadism/Masochism) and power exchange relationships (the Dominance/Submission). Ergo, sensation play is based upon kink.

I guesstimate that fully 75 % of BDSM practitioners are in it for the kink, and only 25 % have ongoing power exchange relationships. Lifestylers online tend to give a false impression, since they (nearly) all identify themselves as Dominants and submissives (implying a power exchange relationship) rather than Tops and bottoms (implying sensation play).

One explanation may be that sensation play is difficult to achieve online, while some form (you make the call) of online control (ie: power exchange) seems plausible.

John

(in reply to SirSix72)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Behavior Around Outsiders - 9/28/2005 3:19:13 PM   
SirSix72


Posts: 347
Joined: 7/14/2005
Status: offline 		Ok well it would seem that the subject matter of this post is still be skated around,,,the word play,,,ie... there is a difference in between playing and living,,,,that is unless you live to play and how many people do you know that can playfully live 24/7 without at sometime having to shed their role when one or the other gets upset at the extreme play that is sometime associated with either Gorean or BDSM,,,I have read many many times that a Dominant may shed his role and become the submissives equal in order to comfort her,,,ie play,,,kink,,,role play,,,,, hopefully ive coverd all the loop hole that can be jumped through or skated around.........

and we all know that the majority rules in a democracy
since that there is a gift to be given in the BDSM umbrella of terms this gives everyone an equal ground to " play " upon.

Master Six

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Behavior Around Outsiders - 9/28/2005 4:00:11 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		"there is a difference in between playing and living,,,,that is unless you live to play and how many people do you know that can playfully live 24/7 without at sometime having to shed their role when one or the other gets upset at the extreme play that is sometime associated with either Gorean or BDSM"

1. You're correct in noting that no one can engage in sensation play 24/7, and that play cannot rise to the level of constituting a dynamic for living one's life.

2. However, power exchange relationship dynamics are certainly 24/7 (we can both agree that some BDSM folks role play at this, just as some Goreans do). The very feature that distinguishes a power exchange relationship from role play is that it IS ongoing.

3. Why do you assume control (a Gorean or BDSM power exchange relationship) necessitates "extreme play" (or play of any kind)? Is that a requirement to be Gorean, because it's not a requirement for power exchange relationships. In fact, power exchange relationships can (and do) exist that are devoid of B/D S/M (sensation play).

"I have read many many times that a Dominant may shed his role and become the submissives equal in order to comfort her,,,ie play,,,kink,,,role play,,,,, hopefully ive coverd all the loop hole that can be jumped through or skated around"

1. Guess it just goes to show that you can't believe all that you read. Information is only as good as the source, and I hope not to be the first one to tell you that some internet sources are less than credible.

2. I'm not aware of any lifestyle Dominant (or submissive) that is capable of being anything else than what and who they are (unless they are engaged in role play and pretending to be Doctor and nurse, for example).

3. Lifestyle Dominants are multi-faceted, real people, without any stereotypical ideal of what we are supposed to be (ie: we are not all alike, each is an individual).

4. Does comforting a submissive (caring for one's toy in your parlance) require that a power exchange cease? The submissives I have known would be horrified, repulsed and insecure if that should happen. When they need consolation and comforting, they need it from their strong, in control Dominant.

5. Why do you think I'd need a loophole?

"and we all know that the majority rules in a democracy"

As I have said previously on this board (I'd be pleased to point it out for you if you wish), power exchange relationships are not democracies with no place for "fairness". As a Dominant, I am the majority.

"since that there is a gift to be given in the BDSM umbrella of terms this gives everyone an equal ground to " play " upon."

I'm not certain what this was intended to mean, unless you're referring to the oft mentioned "gift of submission" (which is really a misnomer, because a submissive, just as a Gorean slave, expects something in return.... to be Mastered).

If I can be of any further help to you in understanding the BDSM culture as it is actually practiced real time, please do not hesitate to write again.

John

(in reply to SirSix72)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Behavior Around Outsiders - 9/28/2005 4:43:56 PM   
DemonAngel


Posts: 36
Joined: 5/1/2005
Status: offline
quote:

If I can be of any further help to you in understanding the BDSM culture as it is actually practiced real time, please do not hesitate to write again.

John


How you practise BDSM and the culture that both surrounds and ecapulates BDSM in life is an individual experience,so you can be helpful in expanding how you practise it and how you see it.But that isnt what is actually practised in the entire culture.In fact, no one can explain what BDSM is exactly.Its all personal see?Bdsm,Gor,Sm in fact any practice is different for each person.Sure there will be crossovers and similarities,but no one can claim to know it all or insinuate they know all about everything for all.
Its like Gor.Sure,some people will practise one way.Some will practise Gor 24/7.But people here can only inform us non Goreans how Gor works for them and how Gor works in their lives, not other Goreans or Gor on the whole.Otherwise its like us non Goreans meeting a Gorean and basing all of Gor on their behaviour.It just shouldnt work like that as this isnt a productive way of learning anything.
Well, thats my thought anyway.

_____________________________

Demon

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Behavior Around Outsiders - 9/28/2005 5:05:12 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		Far be it for me to imply that I know it all, Demon. I don't. As I have stated in other threads (be happy to point them out for you, if you like) I cannot speak for the entirety of the lifestyle (no one can). On the other hand, I have not even suggested that I can explain how each unique relationship exists (please correct me if I'm wrong), only described in broad terms the various (recognized) components of BDSM (ie: B/D, S/M and D/S) and how they are distinguished.

However, it does not seem to require a Phd to infer that I can add to the sum total of real time knowledge about BDSM in some (many?) of these threads. I think that would be fair to say, don't you?

John

(in reply to DemonAngel)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Behavior Around Outsiders - 9/28/2005 5:12:35 PM   
Guest
 Lets all keep on topic and avoid remarks on how much knowledge everyone on the forums may or may not have.

(in reply to Rover)
  Post #: 16
RE: Behavior Around Outsiders - 9/28/2005 5:31:23 PM   
miikaawaadizi


Posts: 134
Joined: 11/19/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas
If lifestyle folk (to include Goreans and others who claim to live an alternative lifestyle all the time) change their behavior around outsiders, such as friends, family, employers, etc. who don't share their lifestyle, can they truly be said to live their way of life "24/7", or are they just kidding themselves? Are they really just scene-players who have their game-face on most of the time when others aren't around?


how I behave around anyone else doesn't really change the fact that I'm slave to my Master, I don't think. neither does how he behave around others change who (or what) he is. is a baker no longer a baker when he's not in front of an oven? a soldier not a soldier when he's out on the town?

in anthropology, there's the concept of the time coming when it's time to rub the blue clay in your belly button ... adopt local customs so as to fit in with the culture. being "vanilla" around outsiders, in my mind, is simply the same thing ... we behave as is appropriate to our environment, but it doesn't affect who or what we are - just how we express ourselves to be acceptable.

the demarcation point, I think, is that those who can "turn it off" internally when they're out in public, or similar, might be the ones playing a role. when I act appropriate to the environment, in ways that might not be considered "canonically" the actions of a slave, it doesn't necessarily follow that I'm not still a slave internally. my primary motivation, regardless of the environment, is still "am I pleasing my Master?" ... it pleases my Master not to embarass him (or myself) by acting inappropriately unless the circumstances require it (and displeases him to not act appropriately when the circumstances do require it).

as one of the wisest (albeit literary) Men ever once said - "no matter where you go, there you are." in the case of any 24/7 lifestyle practitioner, I think the paraphrase "if no matter where you go, there you still are" would work.

an important question is, perhaps, just how far should we go in rubbing that blue clay in, as opposed to remaining true to our own personal practices? the answer to that one is more likely to be the individual one.

~miika
proud collared and marked property

Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm.
Winston Churchill

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Behavior Around Outsiders - 9/28/2005 8:49:27 PM   
Delvin


Posts: 151
Joined: 8/23/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline 		ykiok

Good day A/all,

Fantasy, Reality and Illusion.

The moral majority would love to sit in on any of these conversations and pick apart how sick and disgusting we are, no matter what "kink" we have in our life, as it does not fit in their view of how a man and a woman should live.

For me, common curtousey dictates how I may "act" outside my home. I do call men Sir, women Ma'am, I will open doors for ladies, mind my language around others and generally open and honest with my life as long as it will not offend someone. Why ?....well, why not, what do I get out of it, to offend someone, sitting them down and driving home my lifestyle to someone ? Nothing. Now let me set aside one exception, the making of Laws in our land. Yes, I will be outspoken and very direct when someone is attempting to create or alter a law that will dictate how I should live from day to day. Otherwise, there isn't a need to go around and loudly proclaim who and what I am.

I wake up in the morning, knowing full well who I am, what I am and why I am. Each morning my slaves wake up knowing who they are, what they are and why. Beyond that, why should it matter if Mrs. Smith knows who we are, what we are and why ? Should I hide it from the outside world ?..(Fantasy). Should I deny it when confronted ? (Illusion) or should I accept that not everyone on this large planet has the same views as I do, and I do not have the same views as others, yet we all seem to want to be happy, healthy and free (reality).

:)

D

(in reply to miikaawaadizi)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Behavior Around Outsiders - 9/28/2005 10:26:13 PM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline 		Hey, a relatively civil and on topic conversation (only one warning so far). Refreshing!

Here's what I think on this subject:

Hiding who you are and what you do and respecting the views and sensibilities of others aren't the same thing. Now, being a Gorean, much of my way of life can be lived right out there in plain sight, all the time. In fact, much of the ethos to which I subscribe puts me at a competitive advantage in the business world and enriches the various roles that I fulfill in my life.

But, what about the master/slave stuff? My views on slavery (and edana's views on being a slave) would be controversial at best as dinner conversation among non-Goreans. So, do we put it "out there" in the face of everyone we meet, or know? No, we don't. My way of thinking (and by extension my guideline for edana's behavior) is that putting it in people's face would make us no less annoying than the fundamentalist christian who asks you "have you accepted Jesus as your personal savior?"

But is that being a "real" Gorean? Think about it this way: What would Marcus of Ar's Station do? I have mused at having a bumper sticker like that made. If a small band of Goreans (from Gor) got stranded here on earth what would they (at least the smart ones) do? Most likely, they'd blend in. They'd become known as exceptionally dominant personalities, and their characters would set them apart, but they'd blend. They'd do pretty much what we do. They'd enjoy their own customs among themselves, and cherish each other's company even more than when they were on Gor, but they'd adapt, and get along.

What do I (and edana) actually do? Well, we more or less follow the rule of not imposing ourselves on others that we are pretty sure would be uncomfortable with our ways. Other than that, don't really change much around others. All of the members of my household, including those of mine and edana's that must not be mentioned here, know full well what edana's role in the household is. Those of mine who must not be mentioned have grown up around it, and are quite comfortable with that culture at home. In public settings (truly public settings like airports and resturaunts) we observe more or less the same protocol that we do at home. Edana still refers to me as Master. She greets me on her knees when I arrive at an airport and she's picking me up. She heels to me wherever we walk. It might suprise you, but in those kinds of settings, nobody really notices or cares. I could be her new-age spiritual guru for all they know. People have stepped around her in airports while she was on her knees like she wasn't even there.

She wears a stainless steel collar all the time, even to work, where she is a relatively well paid professional. Most of her co-workers know her status, as does her boss who I once overheard on the phone telling her "ask your Master if you can go to happy hour". I guess my point is that many people will be a lot more accepting than you think they will if you give them a chance.

So, in answer to Rover's original question, yes, I think that modifying your behavior around those who you would make uncomfortable (within reason) is just common courtesy and respect. It doesn't change who you are in the slightest, it just means that you are smart enough to live in a society where the dominant culture isn't your own.

_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Behavior Around Outsiders - 9/29/2005 5:02:06 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		I see that as being realistic, and (despite the Mod's perceptions) my original post was an invitation to clearly demonstrate that realism.

No one (in any lifestyle) is transparent. There are always issues, beliefs, practices, that people choose (for good reason) to remain private. And for the most part, I'm grateful for that (who doesn't get a twinge thinking of their parents..... ya know).

John

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 20
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