RE: Branding of slaves, a further division?

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RE: Branding of slaves, a further division?

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RE: Branding of slaves, a further division? - 9/29/2005 3:02:10 AM

LordODiscipline

Posts: 995
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover
Yes, we all fall under the BDSM umbrella term. No, we are not all alike. Sensation play is the B/D S/M, power exchange relationships is the D/S. One may engage in any of the three, together, or separately. And the VAST majority engage in the B/D and S/M, not the D/S.
John[/font]

Two things:

1. First, I would expect that (as with Leonidas) your figures are subjective and based on your experiential/subjective data.... (but, then we cannot know what the 'vast majority' in the clubs are [truely] unless we can go home with them - and,I tried... they simply do not want me in the car)
2. Apparently - as demonstrated in more than a few threads on this board - the Goreans are as diverse and fractured in their belief as BDSM'ers are. No matter what the rheotric appears to state, there is significant division amongst even the people who claim "Gor" as their "kink"... (and, even those who claim it as their lifestyle/avocation)

~J

(in reply to Rover)

Post #: 41

RE: Branding of slaves, a further division? - 9/29/2005 5:53:31 AM

Rover

Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline

Passive Arts Studios ( http://www.passivearts.com/# ) lists absolutely nothing but play sessions with professional Dommes, submissives, etc. Typical pay for play stuff. Calling one's self a Dominant or submissive for the purpose of play doesn't make it so. In this context, they're Tops and bottoms (those who engage in play), not Dominants and submissives.

The Wet Spot ( http://www.wetspot.org/schedule.htm ) has a very extensive monthly schedule. Could you point out the power exchange related topics? Is it belly dancing? Massage? Whipping?

The Lair de Sade's website ( http://www.lairdesade.com/ ) describes (in detail) their play parties (emphasis on play) and play equipment available for use. Their calendar lists five types of events, four of which are for play, one for vendors and shopping. The upcoming workshops are listed, and maybe the tantra, S/M or vaginal fisting are the power exchange topics you were referring to?

Now, I'm not saying these places do not EVER have a power exchange relationship topic, but for crying out loud, you'd think that at least one of them might be visible. Any objective reading of their websites, including the events calendars, would lead one to conclude that they are typical play dungeons and clubs. Nothing wrong with that, of course. But it's a far cry from being places that (as you asserted) "have regular workshops, etc. for those involved with power exchange."

(In the interest of understanding, people involved in power exchange relationships may very well attend demos and workshops oriented with play. "We" engage in play time as much as anyone else, including Goreans, though (just like Goreans) it is the ongoing control dynamic that defines us as power exchange relationships)

"Seems to me that what you learn at events (and I've been to some, a lot, actually, both lifestyle related and related to my profession) is how people behave at events, and in front of people. I'd much rather look a man in the eye in an intimate setting and have a conversation with him when he doesn't have his party hat on. I think you learn more that way about what people are really about, not what they represent about themselves. Not to knock your way, but I prefer mine."

1. At events I have the benefit of listening to nationally recognized practioners discussing their field of proficiency, speak with them (privately, or in the group workshop, or both), and listen to the questions posed by others (and the answers given).

2. Anyone putting on a "game face" at an event will do so in your home. In fact, it's much easier with such a small audience.

3. I look everyone in the eye when I speak with them, at an event, in my home, at my business, at the grocery store, etc. Was that supposed to be something unique?

4. At events, many intimate conversations take place. With other attendees, or with presenters.

5. I fully endorse "your way" and didn't feel that you had "knocked my way" at all. Just mischaracterized it (perhaps you did not understand it).

What I said:

"I can say without reservation, that a collar is the traditional and historical symbol of ownership (dating to the leathermen S/M days), and that the overwhelming majority of power exchange relationships continue to view it that way." (emphasis added)

What you said in reply:

"Well, if you are primarily leather culture, that would explain why you think that collars always represent ownership among those in power exchange relationships. I think that a lot of folks in power exchanges outside of leather culture do associate collars with ownership, but, again, in my experience, there are a large enough number of folks who don't that to say it's universal among folks in power exchanges is a pretty big stretch." (emphasis added)

How did "overwhelming majority" become translated into "always" and "universal"?

You're far too intelligent to have misread that passage so badly, and seem far too honest to have purposely mischaracterized it in order to make a (fraudulent) point. In point of fact, I was not the one making "a pretty big stretch". That is plainly evident.

"Glad to know that some folks really have seen your face. Sometimes I get into these arguments with people online only to find out that they're paper tigers who live an online fantasy existance, and just live to stir up trouble on the playground."

Amen, brother!!!! Amen.

John

< Message edited by Rover -- 9/29/2005 6:30:44 AM >

(in reply to Leonidas)

Post #: 42

RE: Branding of slaves, a further division? - 9/29/2005 6:02:46 AM

Rover

Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline

Michael, this is a controversial lifestyle we are involved with. Why do you think that bulletin boards would be any less controversial?

If you were to eliminate all topics that bother someone, you'd be reduced to discussing "Happy Birthday", unicorns and roses (and surely someone from PETA would be upset about the unicorn).

Everyone (including yourself) is free NOT to read what someone (like myself) may write. But those who do not enjoy intellectual discovery should not demand that we all fall to the lowest common denominator.

John

(in reply to Webmaster60)

Post #: 43

RE: Branding of slaves, a further division? - 9/29/2005 6:29:24 AM

Rover

Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
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1. I fully concur that my figures (BDSM being comprised of 75 % sensation players and 25 % power exchange relationships), are entirely subjective, and utterly without any scientific basis whatsoever. Just my personal guesstimate.

2. I believe that humans are diverse, and that even within a narrow subculture, that diversity will (eventually) become evident. Consequently, I am not surprised in the least that both BDSM and Gor demonstrate considerable diversity within their ranks.

John

(in reply to LordODiscipline)

Post #: 44

RE: Branding of slaves, a further division? - 9/29/2005 6:47:08 AM

Leonidas

Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline

quote:

You're far too intelligent to have misread that passage so badly, and seem far too honest to have purposely mischaracterized it in order to make a (fraudulent) point. In point of fact, I was not the one making "a pretty big stretch". That is plainly evident

No, I wasn't trying to slight you. It does seem evident though that there is a real difference of opinion between us. You think that the "overwhelming majority" of those involved in lifestyle D/s equate "collar" with "property". I don't think it's anything like an "overwhelming majority". I'm not even sure it'd be a majority, but again, neither of us has done a "statistical analysis". As I said earlier, my experience of those engaged in power exchange (lifestyle D/s) is that some see a collar as a symbol of ownership, and some don't, and it's a pretty even mix (nothing like an overwhelming majority). Where we do agree is that the collar, historically, is a symbol of ownership (going back to the original post-war leathermen). I can tell you that it is universally a symbol of ownership among Goreans. I suspect that, if a lot of your experience has been with NLA and similar groups, your perception about how people see and use collars may be a little skewed toward what leathermen do.

Maybe we ought to let this thread get back to the subject of branding, waddaya think?

_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to Rover)

Post #: 45

RE: Branding of slaves, a further division? - 9/29/2005 6:56:45 AM

miikaawaadizi

Posts: 134
Joined: 11/19/2004
Status: offline

with regards to brands, these links might be of use:

http://www.goreanwhispers.com/markings/tass.html
http://www.goreanwhispers.com/markings/nyla.html

one alternative that's been mentioned before is etching,

http://www.ringsofdesire.com/etching.html

as for me, I was branded when transferred to my current Owner ... it was a multi-strike branding, that lasted quite clearly for 6 or 7 years before it began to splurge. my apologies that I don't have a picture of it when it was in good condition, if Master Alex, Master MidnightWriter or Mistress Phoenix read this and have pictures from that night perhaps they'd be willing to post them?

~miika
proud collared and marked property

We are the most powerful planet on Earth.
Dan Quayle

Attachment (1)

(in reply to Webmaster60)

Post #: 46

RE: Branding of slaves, a further division? - 9/29/2005 7:19:09 AM

plantlady64

Posts: 755
Joined: 5/19/2005
Status: offline

quote:

The other thing to note, as I have said elsewhere, those who practice strict forms of TPE are a miniscule minority of the pansexual BDSM rainbow. "BDSM" is such a catch-all that many who practice "BDSM" have little in common with each other, much less Goreans.

What I've come to understand, Rover, from what you have written about safe-words and other issues is that you may have more in comon with Goreans than you have differences (again, where the keeping of slaves is concerned). How representative you are of "BDSM", though, is a different matter. For example, you said in your post that a collar denotes property. I'm not even sure that is the majority view in "BDSM". It's certainly how Goreans see collars. There are a number of self-described lifestyle slaves on this site for whom a collar is nothing more than a fashion statement or something onto which a leash is attached. I haven't been hyper-active in the BDSM community, but I do attend functions from time to time, and I'd say that for most of the people that I've seen, a collar is more a play-time accessory than anything else.

Hello All,
I am relatively new to BDSM in general and have just recently added trying to understand the differences between gorean practices and mine at home with my Master. The more I search the more similarities and parallels present themselves to me.
This thread about branding your slave also fits into my path though at this point it's not a gorean one.
I opened my mind to pleasure and pain mixed together 2/24. I took my Master's Training collar in March. Only he may take it off or put it on. I wear it 24/7 even in front of all our relatives at family funerals we've attended. I tell most people in my vanilla life that ask; that it means Rick owns me. My analogy of the collar is much like your pets get collars to prove they are owned and cared for. Master Rick's collar signifies ownership of me as his pet slave. There is nothing that matters as much to me as my Master being content.
On 2/24/06 I take his full ownership locking collar and from that point on I'll fully be in his leather family as his and will have enough knowlegde to never bring shame to his house.
During my collaring ceremony my Master will brand me with a BSDM symbol on my butt. We're going to a club in TX called the Sanctuary where they have an area of their dungeon set up for that. It's a very huge symbol of my devotion to him in my eyes and in his to let him brand me.
I may not consider myself Gorean but rather Old Guard, but I honestly feel most of the things I've heard from Gorean people and how their homes are run is very much the same world we live in my home.

I agree a lot of people don't get branded in general. I don't agree you have to be Gorean to understand the significance of the ceremonial burning, or the gift my Master gives me when he allows me to live under his collar.

So again I say we are more similar than most would agree. I'm finding the more I research and understand what we do instead of accepting generalizations the more I find common ground is shared.
Sincerely,
sub suzanne

(in reply to Leonidas)

Post #: 47

RE: Branding of slaves, a further division? - 9/29/2005 7:35:14 AM

Webmaster60

Posts: 396
Joined: 9/10/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover
Everyone (including yourself) is free NOT to read what someone (like myself) may write. But those who do not enjoy intellectual discovery should not demand that we all fall to the lowest common denominator.

What do you find intellectual about trying to prove who is the authority or who is real and who is not? Where is the intellect of statements like You're far too intelligent to have misread that passage so badly, and seem far too honest to have purposely mischaracterized it in order to make a (fraudulent) point. ?? What journey of discovery are you piloting?

You think its just ME thats damned tired of the tirade? You have successfully gone OFF thread on every tangent you undertake.. and engaged in character assassination in almost every post that opposes your opinion.

Take a moment to back up.. Take a fe deep clensing breaths and review your posts of late. If you don't SEE it, I.... never mind.. deleted in the interest of taste..

Master Michael

_____________________________

Master Michael
~~~~~~~~~~
"To sin in silence when he should
speak makes cowards of men"

(in reply to Rover)

Post #: 48

RE: Branding of slaves, a further division? - 9/29/2005 7:35:50 AM

miikaawaadizi

Posts: 134
Joined: 11/19/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: plantlady64
So again I say we are more similar than most would agree. I'm finding the more I research and understand what we do instead of accepting generalizations the more I find common ground is shared.

I came up with a theory a while ago (big surprise, huh? :P) about this ... I have the feeling that there are sets of universal "constants" out there, regarding some facets of the activities practiced amongst the different lifestyles. this is supported by history - many things, whilst they continue to be suppressed by various societies, still manage to keep cropping up. John Norman's writings consolidated and collated a lot of historically based concepts, created a framework around them and based on them, and rebadged them as "Gor", but I think that other lifestyles also collate and consolidate those same "constants", and rebadge them as "Old Guard", or any of a slew of other 24/7 lifestyles.

regardless of the ethical, moral, intellectual, and/or visceral framework that is created, those "constants" are shared. you can look at two different houses in two different parts of the world, and they'll be built differently, of different materials, but they have one thing in common (if they're built right) - they have a "foundation". those "constants", I believe, are a "foundation". whether they have different names, or different focuses, and the "house", the lifestyle built on them, is totally unique, those constants are still there.

the discussion involving collars I think also proves this to a certain extent ... whilst there is debate on the meaning of a collar, the "constant" is the concept of a collar to begin with. the conversation regarding branding, and the meaning of it, the constant is the concept of "marking permanently".

then again, I also sometimes overthink things :P

~miika
proud collared and marked property

Things I'd Do If I Ever Became An Evil Overlord
I will not turn into a snake. It never helps.
Peter Anspach, "Evil Overlord"
http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html

(in reply to plantlady64)

Post #: 49

RE: Branding of slaves, a further division? - 9/29/2005 7:52:30 AM

Rover

Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline

Michael, you're right. There is no sign of intelligent discussion between you and I.

John

(in reply to Webmaster60)

Post #: 50

RE: Branding of slaves, a further division? - 10/3/2005 4:45:58 AM

NewlyBruised

Posts: 22
Joined: 9/20/2005
Status: offline

I really don't know what "realm" of any sort of BDSM culture I fit... nor do I care!

Whatever Master has found in me when He collared me is lovely. He told me He wants to brand me, and I said I would accept His brand - it simply shows ownership; that I am His, for His use and pleasure.

It's just part of being owned, I think... in any part of "this" lifestyle. And I am, so a brand seems to fit.

(in reply to Rover)

Post #: 51

RE: Branding of slaves, a further division? - 10/3/2005 6:19:34 PM

nephandi

Posts: 3930
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline

Why, i am asking why do so many discussion end up in arguments over whatever or not BDSM and Gorean lifestyles is the same, basicaly, some Goreans practice D/s Dominance and submission, those that keep slaves, a few practive other forms of BDSM but definitly not all, and what is the point of arguing aboute it, let eat think, do and live their lifestyle as he or she will as long as they dont hurt anyone else.

Why can we not discuss the topic of the tread and not argue, pleese, all this arguing make myhead hurt.

(in reply to NewlyBruised)

Post #: 52

RE: Branding of slaves, a further division? - 10/4/2005 2:59:54 AM

Gem

Posts: 100
Joined: 2/11/2004
Status: offline

Brightest Blessings

The difference that I see between Gorean and BDSM ( shudders at that term but goes on LOL) is that Goreans mark slaves as slaves, M/s (ers) seem to mark slaves as personal property. Sort of like Goreans put a universal serial number upon the slave, M/s(ers) put a property of mark on the slave.

My Owner had looked into branding and found that that many times the branding faded, or became stretched and disfigured after a few years. So he went with a tattoo. He does on too many occasions to count do cuttings and carvings to mark me as well.

For us it is not barbaric, more spiritual than anything else. It seemed to make sense that he would permantly mark me as owned property. I know many folks that perfer the mark of ownership over the collar. *Shrugs* I have both and each has it's own meaning.

Blessed Be
Gem

(in reply to Webmaster60)

Post #: 53

RE: Branding of slaves, a further division? - 10/4/2005 8:00:11 AM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

I have a preference for a tattood "brand". patrtly because of the clarity and neetness of it as well as because it allows colour to be added if required. Havong said this, I would seriously consider an electric brand in the form of a kef if I found the right person to do it.

I can airbrush well and engrave the delicate patterns of celtic knot work or morphic designs.. tattooing .. Yeah well I'd have to buy into a tat studio before they would teach me. Electrionic branding.. Hmmm depending on the costs involved, I'd like to learn this .... Sadly the best place to learn appears to be in the US.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to Gem)

Post #: 54

RE: Branding of slaves, a further division? - 10/4/2005 3:19:35 PM

Wildfleurs

Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Webmaster60

Granted, I conducted the branding at APEX with several onlookers (after a debate as to WHY I should be allowed to do it there) and it was quite successful. The event was not as indifferent as it was in the books, but was nearly a spiritual event for myself and the slave. Do many of you feel that the branding of a slave is barbaric and in keeping with the traditional (perceived) notion that Goreans are "out there"? Or is it a wonderful experience that consumates the bond between Master and slave?

Master Michael

I don't have a problem with the idea of branding, in fact my owner has branded me. I don't think that the idea is inconsistent within the BDSM community, but I do think you'd find a lot more acceptance for it (in general) within the M/S subset of the BDSM community. i have found the misconceptions about branding to be very funny and sometimes very revealing about the person stating them. So I think that branding isn't a very common practice and its a very misunderstood practice in general.

For me the experience was wonderfully bonding. My owner did the branding so it wasn't so bonding for him because he was hyperfocused on the details and making sure that the branding occured properly. For us, him doing the branding was absolutely key to it becuase who else to mark his property than him?

C~

_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

(in reply to Webmaster60)

Post #: 55

RE: Branding of slaves, a further division? - 10/4/2005 4:56:37 PM

JohnWarren

Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs
. My owner did the branding so it wasn't so bonding for him because he was hyperfocused on the details and making sure that the branding occured properly.

This is the reason that when I do a scene account I usually do it from the point of view of the submissive. Frankly, what's going through my mind is more like a German railroad engineer than someone overcome by passion, but it's necessary because someone has to work to make sure the scene move well and is reasonably safe.

Even though a number of people liked my "whipping to the blood" account, for at least one person, it seemed disappointing and passionless simply because I was recounting the things I had to do to keep it hot and safe for Carol.

_____________________________

www.lovingdominant.org

(in reply to Wildfleurs)

Post #: 56

RE: Branding of slaves, a further division? - 10/4/2005 5:05:49 PM

Leonidas

Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline

quote:

Even though a number of people liked my "whipping to the blood" account, for at least one person, it seemed disappointing and passionless simply because I was recounting the things I had to do to keep it hot and safe for Carol.

It's a dirty job, keeping it hot and safe for the masochist, but someone has to do it. I'm glad it's someone not me. There's a butt for every seat, as the saying goes.

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 10/4/2005 5:06:20 PM >

(in reply to JohnWarren)

Post #: 57

RE: Branding of slaves, a further division? - 10/4/2005 6:34:34 PM

Petrus

Posts: 17
Joined: 10/4/2005
Status: offline

Greetings,
I have not used a brand myself, preferring for various reasons to use a tatoo, but this
URL contains much practical information from someone I respect and know has done this.

http://www.gorean-portal.com/brand/thebrand.html

It answers the question of how to stop the secondary heat build up in the flesh that does not require it, and so stops the brand spreading.

Whether it should be done, how it should be done, where it should be done is only for the people concerned. I do not believe it to be solely the province of the goreans, but the marking of property is a deep tradition within the community.

However it should be a point that usually the brand only marks her as a slave, not specifically YOUR slave, the collar is traditionally for that purpose, but as in all things there presumably were exceptions. This could be a difference in viewpoint between goreans and other philosophies.

I wish you well
Petrus

(in reply to Rover)

Post #: 58

RE: Branding of slaves, a further division? - 10/6/2005 11:47:43 AM

sub4mistressnsir

Posts: 89
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Quivver

Barbaric? . . . not even in my un-Gorean mind. Then again I say un-Gorean mostly due to lack of information. Brands used to identify ownership are acient, used yet today especially across the US in livestock, and pets. I've branded some myself using a freeze branding iron, I've assisted with hot branding. The consern you mention with the heat searing is what causes the design to loose form, usually caused by leaving the contact too long. I dont know what you use to create your brands, the size and so on. But there are professional irons that can be made to your design on the market. Here is one such link: http://www.lhbrandingirons.com/ and yes they do come in smaller sizes. On the human and possible recieving end of a brand? It's a bond.............

Just Q's .02

? for ya... what is a freeze branding iron? Is it just a branding iron that you have frozen (ie like in dry ice)?
Any info would be much appriciated.. TY

(in reply to Quivver)

Post #: 59

RE: Branding of slaves, a further division? - 10/6/2005 11:56:27 AM

nephandi

Posts: 3930
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline

i once watched a set of cows on a farm i was visiting get freese branded, basicaly the way it was explained to me the cold is so intense it kills the things in the cells that make collor, thereby leving a white mark, they used it becouse it was less painful for the cows and it did less damage to the skin.

(in reply to sub4mistressnsir)

Post #: 60

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