RE: Absolutes in Gor?

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RE: Absolutes in Gor? - 4/6/2008 2:36:53 PM

Aswad

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I'm not sure if this is covered in what you said above, K, but in case it wasn't:

It should be considered that the internal reality is indeed the only one we can perceive. From a solipsist position, it could be the only thing that does exist, and there is no way to determine that. Even assuming the existence of an objective and independent reality, and assuming that science is correct about the structure of the brain, you're left with the point that you still have no way to know if you're perceiving reality or not, as the only thing your conscious and subconscious mind is interacting with, is the internal representation of what you sense (except scent, which takes a shortcut, but you could inject a signal there, too).

Hell, you could be God, and we could be your daydream.

As was noted by one scientist, one of the explanations that account well for the nature of our universe, is that we're in an MMO, and unaware of it, much like what would be the case with a Matrioshka (sp?) brain. Quite simply put, the external universe would be of a scale that makes it feasible to simulate one of the scale we are observing, and certain oddities, such as the speed of light and its relation to causal ordering, merely represent limitations of the computer architecture that is driving the simulated reality. In connection with a feasability study on a particular kind of MMO, those exact approaches were what we considered for cutting down on the processing power required to sustain the desireable level of realism in a world of the intended scale.

In any case, in such a view, the soul would be the player that is logged on, for those of us who aren't NPC units.

While the assumption that what we perceive has substance to it makes sense, it's by no means a given.

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al-Avatar.

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From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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RE: Absolutes in Gor? - 4/6/2008 4:05:53 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

It should be considered that the internal reality is indeed the only one we can perceive.

Well not really. The picture of external conditions that our minds present to consciousness is indeed built on associations which will be unique to each individual. But, that is also true of the picture of internal reality that our minds present to consciousness. We can perceive neither accurately.

This is why, from the Siva Sutras to Patanjali to Zen, we are repeatedly warned in various ways not to confuse the mind with consciousness. And this why all meditative disciplines (excluding special purpose techniques) seek to quiet the mind, because only when the mind is sufficiently quiet can we experience reality directly.

YMMV,

Kirata

< Message edited by Kirata -- 4/6/2008 4:08:00 PM >

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RE: Absolutes in Gor? - 4/6/2008 9:36:04 PM

Aswad

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I'm familiar with the Zone, the Void, Nibbana, Zen, Mushin, Fudoshin, whatever you wish to call it.

And I do agree with regards to its utility, insofar as it goes.

Which, again, excludes the point that, regardless of the locus and focus of perception, anything other than being consubstantiate with reality itself will preclude any certainty of the accuracy of that perception beyond itself. Think of it a black box (or compress the box to a point, if you posit that it is empty), which receives input. The junction at which this input is received represents the absolute boundary beyond which one cannot be certain of the accuracy: perception. Or, perhaps more accurately, reception. In any case, note that, as a consequence, the source of the input is unknown and unknowable. If we return from the abstract (which applies to spiritual models) to the concretes of science, there is the matter of how the input from the eyes, and indeed all sensory organs, pass through isolated preprocessing circuits that could easily have been interfered with (given adequate technology), and we'd not know it. But even if you posit a non-corporeal locus of perception, the abstract boundary still applies.

Quod dixi et erat demonstrandum.

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al-Aswad.

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From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
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RE: Absolutes in Gor? - 4/6/2008 9:43:53 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

Which, again, excludes the point that, regardless of the locus and focus of perception, anything other than being consubstantiate with reality itself will preclude....

And in your view we are not consubstantiate with reality?

K.

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RE: Absolutes in Gor? - 4/6/2008 10:06:56 PM

Aswad

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I should elaborate that I meant "consubstantiate with the totality of reality," i.e. being all of reality. That said, I have no opinion on it either way, although I'm working from the assumption that what I perceive myself to interact with has consequences that are likely to have a causal relationship to my actions. Which is about as much as I do assume on that front. Some have accused me of excluding too few possibilities from consideration, though. I tend to view it as fluidity. YMMV.

IWYW,
al-Aswad.

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From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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RE: Absolutes in Gor? - 4/7/2008 6:02:21 AM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

I meant "consubstantiate with the totality of reality," i.e. being all of reality.

Ah, well, I guess it doesn't make much sense to bother with any of that meditation stuff then. It may have some "utility, insofar as it goes," but beyond that it looks doomed to be just another loser in the long run.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 4/7/2008 6:05:16 AM >

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RE: Absolutes in Gor? - 4/7/2008 6:21:19 PM

Aswad

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Err... color me confused. How did you get from A to Z here?

Never said it wasn't worth bothering with; I do use that mental space myself.

In the face of entropy, absent a means to suspend it, everything is "a loser" in the long run†.

Does that mean life is not worth living, and that we should all just allow ourselves to succumb to nihilism?

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† ♪ …just dust and bones… ♫

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RE: Absolutes in Gor? - 4/7/2008 6:34:39 PM

Kirata

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Well, you said it had some limited "utility" but.... sort of like exercise, I guess, was how I gathered you would rate it, not something on your list as a way to actually know anything.

K.

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RE: Absolutes in Gor? - 4/7/2008 8:32:20 PM

Aswad

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Its importance in my life cannot be overstated.

We on the same page then?

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al-Aswad.

Edit: I wasn't contradicting your argument in the first place, but elaborating on it.

< Message edited by Aswad -- 4/7/2008 8:37:17 PM >

_____________________________

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From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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RE: Absolutes in Gor? - 4/7/2008 9:13:29 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

Its importance in my life cannot be overstated.

Would that make it an absolute?

Kirata

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RE: Absolutes in Gor? - 4/8/2008 9:33:57 AM

Aswad

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It's absolutely important, at least.

Health,
al-Aswad.

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"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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Post #: 131