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Absolutes in Gor? - 3/20/2008 7:59:06 AM

ameenah

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Greetings Masters & Mistresses,
greetings girls,

ameenah begs a question. Are there absolutes in Gor? For example, is there one definite idea of 'honor' that all Goreans would agree on? Or 'honesty'. Or 'truth'?

Respectfully,
ameenah{Orion}

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RE: Absolutes in Gor? - 3/20/2008 10:20:47 AM

Trevelyan

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ameenah

I believe there are absolutes in Gor; by which I mean values that define whether someone is Gorean or not. They are not general words like honor, honesty or truth however. Expressed in terms used by the dominant culture on Gor they are values like Home Stone, Clan, Caste, keeping one's word, the Gorean Morality and the order of nature. In other posts I have talked about the meanings of almost all of those values in much greater detail.

Trevelyan

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RE: Absolutes in Gor? - 3/20/2008 11:15:21 AM

ameenah

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Master Trevelyan,

Thank you for your response. Yes Master, I understand about Home Stone, clan, caste, etc. I think I am thinking more along the lines of things like: goodness, justice, etc...

The reason why I ask is that Plato said that there is something outside of ourselves that is 'good'... we might come to understand some aspects of it, but it is outside of us. I'm thinking Goreans might not agree with this, and they may be more inclined to say that there is no absolute thing called 'good'- and perhaps each man defines that for himself?

Not sure, but just wondering.

Respectfully,
ameenah{Orion}

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RE: Absolutes in Gor? - 3/20/2008 11:21:18 AM

Stephann

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Gorean morality doesn't necessarily adhere to absolutes. In fact, I would suggest that part of being Gorean embraces the expectation that my morality might not necessarily be your morality (regardless of if you're Gorean or not.) No two Goreans will define Honor exactly the same, yet there's likely to be a common thread between all Goreans, in terms of Honor.

Stephan

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RE: Absolutes in Gor? - 3/20/2008 11:51:56 AM

Luther6

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ameenah:
I would say that Goreans do have a generally agreed definition of "good" in its aspect as a moral term and as opposed to its opposite "bad." Now, they may differ on which actions meet that definition, but that does not mean their definition of "good" is different.

Luther

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RE: Absolutes in Gor? - 3/20/2008 12:54:37 PM

Trevelyan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ameenah

Master Trevelyan,

Thank you for your response. Yes Master, I understand about Home Stone, clan, caste, etc. I think I am thinking more along the lines of things like: goodness, justice, etc...

The reason why I ask is that Plato said that there is something outside of ourselves that is 'good'... we might come to understand some aspects of it, but it is outside of us. I'm thinking Goreans might not agree with this, and they may be more inclined to say that there is no absolute thing called 'good'- and perhaps each man defines that for himself?

Not sure, but just wondering.

Respectfully,
ameenah{Orion}

Here is a quote to consider from Chapter 1 of Marauders which discusses the Gorean Morality. Keep in mind that a "morality" is "a system of ideas of right and wrong conduct."

"Many Earth moralities encourage resignation and accommodation; Gorean morality is bent more toward conquest and defiance; many Earth moralities encourage tenderness, pity and gentleness, sweetness; Gorean morality encourages honor, courage, hardness and strength."

Have you read the books ameenah? I don't recall a lot of emphasis on goodness and justice in them.

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RE: Absolutes in Gor? - 3/20/2008 1:08:08 PM

Trevelyan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

Gorean morality doesn't necessarily adhere to absolutes. In fact, I would suggest that part of being Gorean embraces the expectation that my morality might not necessarily be your morality (regardless of if you're Gorean or not.) No two Goreans will define Honor exactly the same, yet there's likely to be a common thread between all Goreans, in terms of Honor.

Stephan

Stephan,

You are a great guy but I disagree with you. There is a definitely a Gorean Morality. It is very well explained in Marauders and illustrated in action through the series.

The common thread between all Goreans in terms of honor, as near as I can tell, is just the manly chest thumping of guys that hang out in Gorean chat rooms. Most of them have never read the books, so it is easier for them to just blab about a cool sounding word with varied meanings to different people. It kind of reminds me of the "Death before Dishonor" tattoos that privates get during their first pass from basic - you know, the guys who then get an article 15 within the next 6 months and eventually get out with a less than honorable discharge.

For Goreans in the books, honor is very specific: maintaining one's individual sovereignty, upholding one's oath of allegiance to the Home Stone of one's city, keeping the Code of one's Caste, and keeping one's word.

I wish you well

Trevelyan

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RE: Absolutes in Gor? - 3/20/2008 1:53:43 PM

ameenah

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Greetings Master Trevelyan,

Yes Master, I have read many of the books, but not all of them yet. As a matter of fact, I just used that quote from Mauraders in one of my recent posts. I guess I just didn't want to jump to conclusions... and here's why... your post is saying that Goreans are not concerned with goodness, and Master Luther's post is saying there is a general idea of goodness. Another Master says that each man will have his own definition of goodness. So although we've all read the books, there doesn't seem to be a clear answer on this.

I'm asking this because most of Western philosophy is based on Plato's assertion that there are qualities men cannot fully know, because they are not within themselves. He called them 'the forms'... Good was a form that was 'out there', an absolute perfect 'good' that was the same for all and unchanging. It was an absolute. It was outside of man. Man could strive for it, but never achieve it. They might recognize aspects of it, but they can never fully 'know' it.

Aristotle, Plato's student, I believe disagreed and he believed that all things are in this material world... not "out there" ... and we can come to know it.

So these are two very different ways of viewing the world, and mankind, and I'm wondering which is the Gorean way. Master Luther has mentioned Plato often, but if Gorean philosophy doesn't follow the most basic assertion of absolutes, unattainable and never fully known to man, then I would think that we cannot assume any of the Gorean philosophy to be based on Plato.

I took some philosophy courses a few years ago, and I'm trying to remember and apply what I learned to Gor. A few things Master Leonidas said in one of his posts to Master Luther in the other thread got me to thinking that the whole Plato thing may not apply because of this underlying premise.

Respectfully,
ameenah{Orion}

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RE: Absolutes in Gor? - 3/20/2008 4:04:43 PM

Karynn

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Tal ameenah,

When anyone attempts to apply absolutes to life, that seems to narrow the path, and to me the path a Gorean takes isn't necessarily narrow. I also think that the concept of quoting from the books to support a particular argument has its positive points and its weak points.

If you look at the books as a series, and you study one character's growth, Tarl Cabot, you see the way he processes every culture he's presented, and how he evolves as a result. In some cases, those moments of evolution display a man you nor I would think very much of, and in other moments, he excels.

If you look at the books as individual studies on varied cultures from Earth, from different centuries and the history and philosophy particular to one area, a completely different picture is painted. "All" Goreans were not in essence reflections of Roman society and thus did not espouse text that reflects Aristotle or Plato. If you study the Wagon People's perspective, a different picture might be gleaned. If you studied the essence and teachings of the Northern countries, again man's approach to living is cultivated quite differently.

Either approach takes a lot of data and expects an intelligent mind to process it. Accepting absolutes in Gor is one of those statements that we learned as irony: There are absolutely no absolutes in Gor. == An absolute.

I think it's an interesting way to approach the diversity that is Gorean, but without accepting that Gor is multi-cultural and multi-layered, a society based on extensive study done by a professor who spent most of his life studying and teaching history, one can never really grasp the absolute lack of absolutes.

My best,
K

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RE: Absolutes in Gor? - 3/20/2008 4:54:49 PM

Aswad

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Tal Trevelyan,

I'm wondering whether keeping one's word is indeed an absolute. Or, rather, whether it is a simple absolute, or a complicated one; arguably, it is one of the important foundations for building alliances and trust, along with being something most men value, so I would suppose it's absolute in the sense of probably being an intrinsic thing. But I'm not convinced that it's a simple absolute, as the Assassins (for instance) must clearly have ended up in situations where they have given their word falsely, in order to uphold their previously given word. A matter of priorities, or one dealing with concentric circles, or a question of chronology, or something else...

Care to comment and/or speculate regarding this?

Health,
al-Aswad.

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RE: Absolutes in Gor? - 3/20/2008 9:04:48 PM

Trevelyan

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Tal Aswad,

In my posts in this thread, I was not using "absolutes" in the way that ameenah intended, namely Plato's forms such as the idea of perfect "good."

Rather, I was using it a quality, value or habit that is characteristic of Goreans. Goreans in the books see keeping one's word as an element of honor. If you keep your word, you are behaving honorably. If you fail to keep your word, you are behaving dishonorably.

There is an incident in one of the later books, the one in which Tarl is a prisoner of the army of Ar and is forced to go on the expedition into the delta of the Vosk. I forget the details, but basically Tarl's guard said he would do something if Tarl did something. Tarl kept up his end of the bargain, but the guard did not. Tarl angrily told him he was dishonorable, and the guards comrades agreed that his conduct was dishonorable. Much later, in another book I think, Tarl meets up with him, I think in connection with the Delta Brigade, and tells him that he has regained his honor through his actions.

There are other examples, but that seems to me to be the plainest example of the importance of keeping one's word as a matter of honor.

I should emphasize I am saying "keeping one's word" not "telling the truth." In my mind, Goreans are much less concerned about truth, and frequently use deception to accomplish their ends.

As to whether keeping one's word is a simple absolute or a complex absolute, I have no idea.

I wish you well,

Trevelyan

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RE: Absolutes in Gor? - 3/20/2008 9:16:02 PM

Trevelyan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Karynn

Tal ameenah,

When anyone attempts to apply absolutes to life, that seems to narrow the path, and to me the path a Gorean takes isn't necessarily narrow. I also think that the concept of quoting from the books to support a particular argument has its positive points and its weak points.

If you look at the books as a series, and you study one character's growth, Tarl Cabot, you see the way he processes every culture he's presented, and how he evolves as a result. In some cases, those moments of evolution display a man you nor I would think very much of, and in other moments, he excels.

If you look at the books as individual studies on varied cultures from Earth, from different centuries and the history and philosophy particular to one area, a completely different picture is painted. "All" Goreans were not in essence reflections of Roman society and thus did not espouse text that reflects Aristotle or Plato. If you study the Wagon People's perspective, a different picture might be gleaned. If you studied the essence and teachings of the Northern countries, again man's approach to living is cultivated quite differently.

Either approach takes a lot of data and expects an intelligent mind to process it. Accepting absolutes in Gor is one of those statements that we learned as irony: There are absolutely no absolutes in Gor. == An absolute.

I think it's an interesting way to approach the diversity that is Gorean, but without accepting that Gor is multi-cultural and multi-layered, a society based on extensive study done by a professor who spent most of his life studying and teaching history, one can never really grasp the absolute lack of absolutes.

My best,
K

Tal Karyn,

I disagree with you.

I feel that there are Gorean absolutes as described in the books, that go across all of the cultures described. For example, the two concepts which underlie "Home Stone" are individual sovereignty in one's territory, and allegiance to the larger group to which one belongs. Those are values held by the "Gorean" culture. But I think they are also held by the Wagon People, the Rencers, the Panther Girls, the Torvaldslanders, the Tribesmen of the Tahari, the Red Hunters, the peoples described in "Explorers", and the Red Savages.

In his description of these various peoples, I think that Norman was not so much focusing on the differences in their cultures, but how people living a more "natural" existance than that of late 20th Century America tend to share remarkably similar values despite the differences of their cultural practices.

I should also add that if I understand her correctly neither the sort of absolutes I am talking about, nor the ones you are denying are the kind of absolutes that ameenah is talking about.

I wish you well,

Trevelyan

< Message edited by Trevelyan -- 3/20/2008 9:21:56 PM >

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RE: Absolutes in Gor? - 3/21/2008 4:58:41 AM

Aswad

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Tal Trevelyan,

I do agree that it appears to be a universal element of honor in the books. For comparison to Earth history, it appears to have been so in Western cultures, and certainly in Japanese culture (I am not sufficiently familiar with other Asian cultures' histories to comment), but it was not so in cultures over the board. For instance, there are African cultures that do not have that element. Since I have some interest in digging for the roots, that is an interesting discrepancy.

To pose a hypothetical scenario that illustrates the simple/complex element I referenced, assume we have someone that has given his word to perform a covert mission. In the course of this mission, he gets into a situation where he has to give his word to do something contrary to what he has already given his word to do. Failing to give his word will blow the mission. Failing to uphold it will not. We can assume some possible outcomes from such a scenario, e.g.:

Give his word falsely, with no intent of upholding it, in accordance with his previously given word.
Refuse to give his word, and thus fail to uphold his previously given word (an "honest" failure).
Suicide to escape the paradox/dilemma of choosing between two dishonors (Japanese).
Give his word, and uphold it after the mission, thus violating the spirit of both.
etc.

This appears to be a dilemma that has no good resolution, as in the simple view, he will be dishonored no matter what he does, simply as a matter of circumstance, thus making his honor contingent on chance, not choice. In a more "complicated" or fluid view, there are other resolutions, such as holding the chronology of the word given as important, or going by the hierarchy (the concentric circles of allegiances, centering on the Home Stone), etc. Which raises the question of what determines the measure of this seemingly universal (in Gorean lifestyles, at least) element of the metric of honor.

It seems to me that the measure of a man should not be what life throws at him, but how he faces it.

And, obviously, whether he does so on his feet, or on his knees, or on his belly.

Health,
al-Aswad.

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From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
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RE: Absolutes in Gor? - 3/21/2008 5:07:09 AM

Luther6

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Tal ameenah:
    You stated: "...if Gorean philosophy doesn't follow the most basic assertion of absolutes, unattainable and never fully known to man, then I would think that we cannot assume any of the Gorean philosophy to be based on Plato."

   Why is that true? Why can't Gorean philosophy borrow aspects of Plato without following Plato completely? Why is it absolutely necessary to embrace the forms of Plato too? I see no reason why any of that must be true.

   First, it is undeniable that Norman did borrow at least some aspects of The Republic. For example, the ring of Gyges story originated with The Republic. There was no other source for Norman to take this story so he had to have taken it from The Republic. Second, I certainly have never said that the Gorean philosophy is exactly what is presented in The Republic. In my essay on the topic on my website, along with all the similarities, I point out a number of differences between The Republic and Gor. Third, one can borrow virtue ethics from Plato yet not accept his belief in the Forms. Aristotle certainly did so. As did Nietzsche and a number of modern philosophers too. Why not Norman as well?

Luther

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RE: Absolutes in Gor? - 3/21/2008 7:07:52 AM

AsmodeusGM

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Greetings,

How about 'absolute' obedience, as in, the duty of a slave?
I would consider that an absolute.

I wish you well,

Asmodeus.

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RE: Absolutes in Gor? - 3/21/2008 7:11:50 AM

ameenah

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Greetings Master Luther,
My thinking is that Plato was more along the lines of thinking of 'men always falling short'... There is an absolute truth, out there, outside of man, that we can come to know partially, but never fully know. Many religions try to 'fill in this gap' by preaching to us what 'truth' is. Then people just accept (take for granted) what they are told and that they walk around feeling they 'know' what 'truth' is. Of course, truth is beyond them, they will never fully achieve it.

Aristotle rejected that and was more along the lines of 'men can achieve'... Truth is here, we can come to know it in this material world. We understand it through experiencing it. Virtues are within man, not 'out there' and man can experience them, come to know them through experience, and achieve them himself. This is more of a master morality as well. Man is fully capable of experiencing it, coming to know it, and achieve it through his own means. Whereas a slave morality is 'preached' what 'truth' is, and then is 'put down' whenever they 'fall short'.

From Maruaders...

"One thing seems clear to me, that a morality which produces guilt and self-torture, which results in anxiety and agony, which shortens life spans, cannot be the answer.

Many of the competitive moralities of Earth are thus mistaken.

But what is not mistaken?

The Goreans have very different notions of morality from those of Earth.

Yet who is to say who is the more correct?

I envy sometimes the simplicities of those of Earth, and those of Gor, who, creatures of their conditioning, are untroubled by such matters, but I would not be as either of them. If either should be correct it is for them no more than a lucky coincidence. They would have fallen into truth, but to take truth for granted is not to know it. Truth not won is not possessed. We are not entitled to truths for which we have not fought.

Do we not learn to live by doing, as we learn to speak by speaking, to paint by painting, to build by building?

Those who know best how to live, sometimes it seems to me, are those least likely to be articulate in such skills. It is, not that they have not learned but, having learned, they find they cannot tell what they know, for only words can be told, and what is learned in living is more than words, other than words, beyond words. We can say, "This building is beautiful,' but we do not learn the beauty of the building from the words; the building it is which teaches us its beauty; and how can one speak the beauty of the building, as it is? Does one say that it has so many pillars, that it has a roof of a certain type, and such? Can one simply say, "The building is beautiful?" Yes, one can say that but what one learns when one sees the beauty of the building cannot be spoken; it is not words; it is the building's beauty.

Aristotle and Plato had a different way of understanding virtues... and ameenah is thinking Aristotle is actually more accurate to equate with Gorean morality than Plato.

Sincerely,
ameenah{Orion}

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RE: Absolutes in Gor? - 3/21/2008 7:43:11 AM

fairerthanshe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AsmodeusGM

Greetings,

How about 'absolute' obedience, as in, the duty of a slave?
I would consider that an absolute.

I wish you well,

Asmodeus.

Greetings Master,

Great to see you! This was the only absolute I could think of - thanks for posting it.

well wishes ~ fairer than she

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RE: Absolutes in Gor? - 3/21/2008 7:56:27 AM

Luther6

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Tal ammenah:
   First, I disagree with your fall short/can achieve characterization. Both Plato and Aristotle understood they were dealing with ideals in virtue ethics, and that it was unlikely anyone would achieve perfection. But that did not mean for either philosopher that man should not try. Their primary difference was over Plato's Forms, and those Forms are not necessary for virtue ethics. So it comes down more to the means of defining Good, and whether it exists as a Form or not. Both basically agree though on the means to achieving Good, through virtue ethics.

   Second, virtue ethics is a master morality, both with Plato and Aristotle. A rules based morality is more likely to be a slave morality. Just the fact that Plato includes Forms in his theory does not mean it is not a master morality.

   Third, the passage from Marauders is much closer to Nietzsche than either Plato or Aristotle. Though Nietzsche also calls for virtue ethics and based some of his beliefs on the ancient Greeks. I think the key is understanding Gorean morality is a form of virtue ethics. And then working from there.

   Fourth, Aristotle has quite an extensive list of virtues, far more than the basic four proposed by Plato. And some of Aristotle's virtues would not be fitting on Gor. For example, one Aristotilean virtue is considered "friendliness" which would entail being friendly to strangers. That is clearly not a Gorean virtue. Plato's four virtues seem a better starting ground for Gorean morality.

Luther

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RE: Absolutes in Gor? - 3/21/2008 9:23:16 AM

ygraine

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Fast reply to the OP and all,
I don't like the term "absolutes", it smacks of dogma and how things MUST be. That starts sounding like a fundamentalist religion. In the end, you will be judged by the peers you chose to be with, and by your own measure. Are they absolutes? Perhaps if you chose to be with such a dogmatic group of people, or if you have absolutes within your own worldview. The older I get, the grayer things become. Absolutes become less and less true and less and less important.
Y

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RE: Absolutes in Gor? - 3/21/2008 10:28:16 AM

barelynangel

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Greetings everyone, hope everyone is enjoying a day off today,

Even the concept of absolute obedience isn't a realistic concept that is practiced and the concept of absolute obedience being achieved is always among debate within extreme concepts of slavery among Goreans, and the aspect of absolute obedience even if it "sounds" as if its technical and non-interpretational, is a concept of interpretation based on who is determining what absolute obedience of a Man's slave is. Usually that concept is within the relationship of Master and slave, that filters into the masses and that is when it becomes questionable as to what the absolute is. Even in the books you never had absolute obedience achieved and many times, it was arbitrary between Men what that actually meant and the situation that it presents.

Attempting to find absolutes in a concept of interpretation which in reading anothers writinges expecially a work of fiction that has philosophies and many historical concepts and cultures integrated into it and you don't have the Man who wrote the series here to say yeah or nay, all you have is interpretation and within interpretation you can have no absolutes for not everyone will come to the same absolute interpretation.

I never understood having to have absolutes, to me a person who sets themselves up for absolutes will find themselves failing more than succeeding at anything they do so with for the simple fact that life is not an absolute no matter what belief you understand because your specific life is always changing and by the nature of same your perception is constantly changing, while basics may have a common theme they never really stay the same either. If you have absolutes others NEED to achieve to be associated with you or for you to bring them into a part of your click, you will probably have a lonely existance because everyone fails at achieving absolutes at some point, and if you demand an absolute, you will eventually need to compromise that absolute when others don't live up to it, or live in the world alone, and more than likely have egg on your face when you don't reach the absolute yourself.

And to me, if you actually reach an absolute than to me you have served your purpose and well, what more is there to strive for, so the question then becomes, do you really want to reach the absolute you deem necessary to define something? To me i would seriously question the humanity of someone being that perfect because while the observation may see they have reach the absolute, what did they do to get there?

angel
angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 3/21/2008 10:29:33 AM >

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