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All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Gorean Lifestyles >> Challenging Inquiry

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Challenging Inquiry - 9/29/2005 12:23:17 PM

Rover

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Much has been made recently regarding challenging others about what they profess or assert, and some clearly infer that "challenge" is somehow "bad" (a relative term if ever there was).

1. Haven't the "challenging" threads been the most interesting, inspiring, and stimulating?

2. Haven't the "challenging" threads elicited the greatest number of respondants, quantity of responses, and views?

3. Haven't the "challenging" threads caused more people to think, deeply, about what they believe, why they believe it, and whether it makes sense to you?

4. Haven't the "challenging" threads been the catalyst for more introspection and taught you more about yourself?

5. Haven't the "challenging" threads taught others (including myself) more about you?

6. Haven't the "challenging" threads dispelled more deeply seated myths about both BDSM and Gor?

7. Haven't the "challenging" threads been the most fun to read and participate in? C'mon, you can admit it.

Let's all of us stop the posturing of being aggrieved victims. Challenging threads are not for everyone, just like every kink is not for everyone. Yet no one suggests that because a kink is not for everyone, it should be banned.

Food for thought.

John

Post #: 1

RE: Challenging Inquiry - 9/29/2005 12:32:04 PM

KatyLied

Posts: 12961
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline

John, it's all good. Stimulation = good

(in reply to Rover)

Post #: 2

RE: Challenging Inquiry - 9/29/2005 12:41:25 PM

plantlady64

Posts: 755
Joined: 5/19/2005
Status: offline

Hello There,
I agree I enjoy being challenged. To see things from someone elses perspective helps me grow & makes me a better person.
What I'd prefer to see less of is the negative statements that try and lump people into a specific group or that try to say who they are is just wrong if it doesn't match your opinion. I've seen my fill of my way is the right way and yours is wrong. I'd like to eliminate those narrow-minded statements and I'd like to see less posturing over who's right or wrong in someone’s eyes. Can't we all behave like grown ups and just agree we disagree with some things in our own pathsthat differ from others paths?
I think especially in the kinky lifestyle, if it works for you it's not wrong or abnormal for you. If it doesn't work for you then you should respect that people have their own desires and preferences and just leave it at that.
Sincerely,
sub suzanne

(in reply to Rover)

Post #: 3

RE: Challenging Inquiry - 9/29/2005 12:54:04 PM

SirSix72

Posts: 347
Joined: 7/14/2005
Status: offline

I have to admit the recent threads has made Me look more deeply into what im involved in and the retrospect of others have bruoght out many different ideas,,I do enjoy a good debate,,,sometimes I tend to get too wrapped up in it I admit

Master Thomas

(in reply to plantlady64)

Post #: 4

RE: Challenging Inquiry - 9/29/2005 6:40:12 PM

krys

Posts: 611
Joined: 8/24/2005
Status: offline

1. No. Its a pissing contest. I do not find those inspiring.
2. Quantity does not make quality.
3. No. It has pointed out who's posts I can scroll past, because it will invariably be the SOS.
4. No.
5. No, see #3.
6. No.
7. No.

People attacking everything someone has to say is not challenging, its being a pain in the ass. I once mentioned to my friend that her Master could post that the sky was blue and the grass was green and people would argue just for the sake of doing so. I was kidding. Unfortunately, I was also correct. Look back carefully over the "challenging" threads. I see arguments that if something happens once, it is not an aberration, arguments over semantics and the whole I'm more real than you are, you're only online, blah blah blah. They have actually not seem to do anything other than prove that Godwin's Law is true.

_____________________________

Krys

(in reply to Rover)

Post #: 5

RE: Challenging Inquiry - 9/29/2005 6:56:32 PM

Rover

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Joined: 6/28/2004
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I too have an issue with Leodinas' open statement that he is the arbiter of who is "real" Gorean and who is not. I imagine most Goreans would have an issue with that as well.

John

(in reply to krys)

Post #: 6

RE: Challenging Inquiry - 9/29/2005 7:06:49 PM

krys

Posts: 611
Joined: 8/24/2005
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Hmmm, you assumed incorrectly Rover. Interesting.

_____________________________

Krys

(in reply to Rover)

Post #: 7

RE: Challenging Inquiry - 9/29/2005 7:07:12 PM

JohnWarren

Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: krys
They have actually not seem to do anything other than prove that Godwin's Law is true.

I don't read all the posts so I missed where someone called someone else a Nazi. Could you give me a clue as to where to look?

_____________________________

www.lovingdominant.org

(in reply to krys)

Post #: 8

RE: Challenging Inquiry - 9/29/2005 7:11:56 PM

krys

Posts: 611
Joined: 8/24/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

quote:

ORIGINAL: krys
They have actually not seem to do anything other than prove that Godwin's Law is true.

I don't read all the posts so I missed where someone called someone else a Nazi. Could you give me a clue as to where to look?

Page 7 of "What's with the hostility from without"

quote:

Recently, a famous politician made brilliant speeches about the natural order. He even proposed laws to enforce the natural order. He was german.

I'm not comparing anything. Just reminding something.

_____________________________

Krys

(in reply to JohnWarren)

Post #: 9

RE: Challenging Inquiry - 9/29/2005 7:16:50 PM

Lordandmaster

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Joined: 6/22/2004
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That actually DISPROVED Godwin's Law, because Godwin's Law claims that as soon as someone refers to Hitler, everyone will start arguing about Hitler, and the thread will be over. Well, the thread is far from over, and no one has referred to Hitler since then.

But of course, it's all just semantics, isn't it. Feel free to scroll past this post.

< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 9/29/2005 7:18:20 PM >

(in reply to krys)

Post #: 10

RE: Challenging Inquiry - 9/29/2005 7:27:21 PM

krys

Posts: 611
Joined: 8/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

That actually DISPROVED Godwin's Law, because Godwin's Law claims that as soon as someone refers to Hitler, everyone will start arguing about Hitler, and the thread will be over. Well, the thread is far from over, and no one has referred to Hitler since then.

But of course, it's all just semantics, isn't it. Feel free to scroll past this post.

Ummm... Well there is semantics and just plain incorrect.

Godwin's Law

quote:

... since the actual text of Godwin's law does not claim that such a reference or comparison makes a discussion "old," or, for that matter, that such a reference or comparison means that a discussion is over.

_____________________________

Krys

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 11

RE: Challenging Inquiry - 9/29/2005 7:30:15 PM

kisshou

Posts: 2425
Joined: 2/11/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

I too have an issue with Leodinas' open statement that he is the arbiter of who is "real" Gorean and who is not. I imagine most Goreans would have an issue with that as well.

John

With all due respect you either did not understand what you read or put your own interpretation on it. No one would have an issue with this because all Gorean Free judge and decide for themselves who else they consider to be Gorean. This is not something decided lightly , I don't believe there is a parallel in the BDSM community so maybe that is why you do not understand.

(in reply to Rover)

Post #: 12

RE: Challenging Inquiry - 9/29/2005 7:30:47 PM

Lordandmaster

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Joined: 6/22/2004
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As the original law is stated, it is perfectly trivial, because as an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving ANYTHING approaches 1. That's not a useful statement. Godwin's Law isn't useful unless the point is supposed to be that referring to Hitler is necessarily a thread-killer.

And it wasn't.

Of course, this is just semantics too.

(in reply to krys)

Post #: 13

RE: Challenging Inquiry - 9/29/2005 7:34:16 PM

Rover

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Kewl, then you folks probably would want to drop all the implied victimization when others judge you as well. It's (evidently) nothing you're not used to, nor anything you do not (plainly) accept consensually.

I used to feel such judging of Goreans was inappropriate (I judge what individual people say, not entire groups). Guess that's no longer an issue.

John

(in reply to kisshou)

Post #: 14

RE: Challenging Inquiry - 9/29/2005 7:35:39 PM

krys

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Joined: 8/24/2005
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You can use the link in my post where the words "Godwin's Law" appear to read the wikipedia description of Godwin's Law, where the last quote came from.

_____________________________

Krys

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 15

RE: Challenging Inquiry - 9/29/2005 7:36:30 PM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10836
Joined: 6/22/2004
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Yes, I just did that. Did you understand what I wrote in response? If you didn't, just say so, and I'll explain it to you. It requires some knowledge of statistics and probability.

(in reply to krys)

Post #: 16

RE: Challenging Inquiry - 9/29/2005 7:40:18 PM

krys

Posts: 611
Joined: 8/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Yes, I just did that. Did you understand what I wrote in response? If you didn't, just say so, and I'll explain it to you. It requires some knowledge of statistics and probability.

I assumed you were not actually going to imply that you know better than the Wikipedia definition. Or at least I HOPED you were not going to. Guess I was wrong.

Having read through the posts I don't think there is anything useful you can teach me, but thanks for the offer.

(By the way, it means the person has LOST the argument, not that they won't keep flailing away at the dead horse nonetheless.)

< Message edited by krys -- 9/29/2005 7:41:53 PM >

_____________________________

Krys

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 17

RE: Challenging Inquiry - 9/29/2005 7:41:41 PM

nenakajira

Posts: 221
Joined: 7/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

Kewl, then you folks probably would want to drop all the implied victimization when others judge you as well. It's (evidently) nothing you're not used to, nor anything you do not (plainly) accept consensually.

I used to feel such judging of Goreans was inappropriate (I judge what individual people say, not entire groups). Guess that's no longer an issue.

John

This could, possibly, have an analogy in racial figures. I am Jewish by birth. My friends and I normally would play with the racial insults of that group amoung ourselves.. such as kike. It was not meant as anything bad, just a way of accepting the terms and remaking them. African americans in the U.S. do that as well.. with the 'n word that I shall not say'. Other groups do as well.

What they do not accept is outsiders doing it instead. Going into an area that has one racial or social grouping and shouting out imprecations against it is a good way to get lynched.

And while you do not feel you are doing it.. when everyone else feels you are perhaps you should take a step back and reevaluate the way you are "discussing" things. If one person says youre an ass.. its probably them.. if everyone says it.. it might be because that is how you are portraying yourself to the group you are speaking to.

-nena{R}

(in reply to Rover)

Post #: 18

RE: Challenging Inquiry - 9/29/2005 7:42:58 PM

Lordandmaster

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Joined: 6/22/2004
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Ever read this? It's more informative than wikipedia:

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/legends/godwin/

Edited to add: You can read what Mike Godwin himself has to say about Godwin's law here. (Of course, it's more complicated than wikipedia, and it involves a lot of that pesky semantics stuff.)

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/2.10/godwin.if_pr.html

< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 9/29/2005 7:51:27 PM >

(in reply to krys)

Post #: 19

RE: Challenging Inquiry - 9/29/2005 7:52:25 PM

krys

Posts: 611
Joined: 8/24/2005
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And the horse beating goes on... and on.... and on....

Okay, from your OWN link

quote:

As a Usenet discussion gets longer it tends to get more heated; as
more heat enters the discussion, tensions get higher and people start to
insult each other over anything they can think of. Godwin's Law merely
notes that, eventually, those tensions eventually cause someone to find
the worst insults that come to mind - which will almost always include a
Nazi comparison.

quote:

So, what this means in practical terms:

o If someone brings up Nazis in general conversation when it
wasn't necessary or germane without it necessarily being an
insult, it's probably about time for the thread to end.
o If someone brings up Nazis in general conversation when it
was vaguely related but is basically being used as an insult,
the speaker can be considered to be flaming and not debating.
o If someone brings up Nazis in any conversation that has been
going on too long for one of the parties, it can be used as
a fair excuse to end the thread and declare victory for the
other side.

See dead horse reference above.

_____________________________

Krys

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 20

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