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RE: A Gorean Romance ~~<~~**** - 9/30/2005 4:12:01 PM

Leonidas

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quote:

And I would further note that (in my personal opinion) there is only a total power exchange, for if it is an on again, off again sort of thing then it is (again, in my personal opinion) role play.

Well, at the risk of starting another jihad, TPE (As Stephen defined it) is a power exchange where there is no agreed to impediment to the exercise of the owner's authority. So in other words, no contracts, no safewords, no negotiations, no stated limits. Steven always said, and I always agreed, that this is more of a process than an end-state. That of course the enslavement of another human being takes time, and progresses in stages. Some people would say that means that there are "hidden limits" there that the owner is "pushing" but in TPE (and Gorean slavery) those limits are percieved by the owner and addressed on his schedule, as he sees fit. There is even a Gorean dance (the chain dance) that symbolizes this process and affirms that enslavement begins with a collaring, rather than ending there.

Something on-again off-again wouldn't even qualify as a power exchange at all, as i understand the term. A power exchange that is not "total" is simply one where there are some "agreed-to impediments to the exercise of the owner's authority" as in the examples that I gave above. It still entails the real surrender of some part of the submissive's personal autonomy, and real acceptance on the part of the dominant of the responsiblity for the submissive's wellbeing because, having surrendered autonomy, they are no longer empowered to be responsible for it themselves.

We always knew that Jon was a nut-case. He was a brilliant nut-case, though, and gave us lots to think about.

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 9/30/2005 4:16:31 PM >

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RE: A Gorean Romance ~~<~~**** - 9/30/2005 4:31:41 PM

Rover

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Whether limits are stated or understood, they always exist. Violate a limit (even one unspoken or unknown) and you'll know. Perhaps you wouldn't enjoy a mutilated toy, but some folks do enjoy simply the exercise of power, even to mutilate, and the visual reminder that remains.

Similarly, bottoms/slaves/submissives can often be heard to express pleasure for many days after a scene, because they can continue to see the bruises, welts, etc.

Point is, every relationship has its limits whether they are beastiality, children, scat, dismemberment or death, they are very real (I know all the theortical arguments to the contrary, but life isn't theory, it's reality). Just because no one ever tries to take a bottom/slave/submissive beyond a limit does not mean that they cease to exist.

As for the nature of submission/slavery in the evolution of a relationship (Gorean, power exchange, or whatever), I wholeheartedly agree that it is not like a light switch where one is able to go directly from fully off to fully on (I've written articles about this). I see it more like a dimmer switch, in which there are gradients between on and off. That's why I (personally) do not collar a girl until we have reached that point at which I feel her submission is complete, and that I truly own all of her (conensually, of course, as is the case in any relationship).

John[/b]

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RE: A Gorean Romance ~~<~~**** - 9/30/2005 4:38:23 PM

darkinshadows

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I just wanted to say edana, you are such a beautiful person through your words, such an honour to read them!

And just to add, I do love romance. However, Like Leonidas - I do not find romance in that sunset, I find it stunning and awesome, but to me it isnt romance.

Romance is the moment when He offers a rose just because He knows it will make me smile.

Romance is not love, but it is the gift He gives me, in what ever way that is.(and no - I am not speaking of that 'Gift' of Dominance or submission as I dont believe in it). Because I do not expect it. When He feels it will allow me to grow, He gives me the romance, it isnt my choice to decide what that romance is - because I gave that up the moment I accept being His.

I have moments when I look into His eyes, or He is playing football with His Child, or He cooks me a meal because He is spoiling me, or allowing me to eat from His fork that I feel that glow of complete love for Him. But it isnt romance - its awe and love and devotion to Him knowing that what He allows, He is allowing so that I can grow and be more of wat I am. Without Him, I wouldnt be who I am. And to have allowed me that is a very, very special Man.

Peace and Love

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RE: A Gorean Romance ~~<~~**** - 9/30/2005 4:48:04 PM

darkinshadows

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Its running a fine line in speaking of unmentionables but I am going to place over a view.

Those unmentionables are not limits.At least - Two of them are not. Because they are not completely consensual. How can something be a limit without consent? I never ever understand listing them as limits, even hard ones. Limits are things you wont do. A limit is something that you approach and cant proceed with. Its a boundry. An end. How can anything unconsensual in that sense even be a limit?

Peace and Love

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RE: A Gorean Romance ~~<~~**** - 9/30/2005 4:57:08 PM

tarnishedhalo777

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I enjoyed this posting.It reminds me of so much in my life.
Yes i am free to pursue higher education,it is indeed a freedom I love and pursue it I do,lol.
My having higher education has given me better career choices and pay,which in turn gives me greater freedoms to enjoy the comforts of life for my self and family. Not to mention the confidence and self-esteem to succeed.
I spent many years at the hands of a drug-addicted abusive man...(had I lived in the 1800's,shooting him would have been my out,and then the mercy of who knows what.)
Now I give others the tools for self-sufficiency should they choose to use them.
Even with all I have achieved, strangely enough I still feel lost....
i have been submissive, I have topped...considered myself a switch too.........I am strong and in control in day to day life.I have been a homemaker and a now power player in the work force helping others to achieve but I miss the guidance of an honorable strong man(maybe b/c I never had it).
Not sure i could ever give up anything I have gained and go back to the life I had before 6 years ago.
maybe that is why I have such a hard time w/ the labels of top, bottom,switch.domme,master,sub,slave...sure I know the basic definitions but finding my nitch,lol.......
Finding one's way is such a journey of growth but I dont want to ever see women going back to no choices.
enough rambling from me....

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RE: A Gorean Romance ~~<~~**** - 9/30/2005 4:59:33 PM

tarnishedhalo777

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Both of you ladies are lucky to have found someone special,that takes the time to help you reach your potential...to me that is romantic...someone seeing that potential and helping you to realize it.

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RE: A Gorean Romance ~~<~~**** - 9/30/2005 5:11:40 PM

tarnishedhalo777

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not sure what exactly it is I am wanting to say,,,except I UNDERSTAND....I guess I can identify strongly w/ your past. It is difficult being a caretaker type of person to those that aren't worthy and the all or nothing ideal.(i still so hate expressing myself on the net,lol)
Continued blessing to you and yours.

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I will not die the death of loneliness by being afraid to love and afraid to get hurt. I will not commit figurative suicide by leaving my potential underdeveloped because I am afraid to take risks.

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RE: A Gorean Romance ~~<~~**** - 9/30/2005 5:20:24 PM

Rover

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Angel, if you consent to something, how can it be a limit?

John

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RE: A Gorean Romance ~~<~~**** - 10/1/2005 10:02:44 AM

darkinshadows

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I apprecitate your questions,however I respect edena and I am not prepared to hijack a thread, I simply commited on your statement. If you decided to start a thread elsewhere on CM I will endeavour to respond.

Peace and Love

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RE: A Gorean Romance ~~<~~**** - 10/3/2005 8:53:29 PM

caitlyn

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Well, edana sort of invited everyone to offer up how they felt about Gorean romance and romance in general ... even non-Gorean, un-Gorean, un-slaves, or whatever. Thinking she meant to include the unstable, I'm answering.

I used to drive this half beater Pontiac Grand Am. It didn't run very well and the CD player didn't work, but it was mine. My property, mine to possess. When I got it I was thrilled. It was a tank and didn't require much attention. There wasn't any sense taking extra special care of it, because it was really just a beater. You could park it anywhere. I rarely even locked it.

Earlier this year, the foster parents bought me a brand new car ... a really nice car, an expensive car ... far better than I probably deserve. It has shiny paint and bad ass rims, GPS and XM satellite radio. It's a fast car, but you really have to take care of it. It is a little high maintenance, and I spend a bit of time taking good care of my new car ... pamper it in fact. I watch where I park it, because I don't want anything to damage it.

Now, both these cars were/are my possessions, the way Gorean Masters view slaves as possessions. The fact that I "maintained" one, and "pamper" the other, doesn't mean that the latter is any less a possession than the former. The former got what it needed to keep it going. The latter needs a little more and gets it.

I've had some bad times and been that beater. I don't see how someone that is pampered a little is any less a possession that someone that's just a beater. I don't think you have to be a beater, to prove that you are a possession. My idea of romance, is to be treated as well as someone would treat a brand new, fast, expensive, high-maintenance car.

< Message edited by caitlyn -- 10/3/2005 8:56:00 PM >

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RE: A Gorean Romance ~~<~~**** - 10/4/2005 10:53:34 AM

edana

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quote:

I don't see how someone that is pampered a little is any less a possession that someone that's just a beater. I don't think you have to be a beater, to prove that you are a possession. My idea of romance is to be treated as well as someone would treat a brand new, fast, expensive, high-maintenance car.

hi caitlyn

Thank you for speaking from your heart; this was an interesting analogy you gave. I love analogies!

I will not speak for my master, (a lesson i have had taught to me recently) but i think that i am a pretty high maintenance girl.

People are different in many respects. some people are simple, and others not so much. Some people need drama, and others not so much. Some people need attention, and others not so much. there are many many more ways in which the personalities of people effect how we interact with and around them.

finding a master who is suited to possess you the way you need to be possessed is the key.

(edited because my chosen humor was not proper behavior for a slave)

< Message edited by edana -- 10/4/2005 11:56:20 AM >

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RE: A Gorean Romance ~~<~~**** - 10/4/2005 12:20:07 PM

plantlady64

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quote:

My idea of romance, is to be treated as well as someone would treat a brand new, fast, expensive, high-maintenance car.

Hello There,
I agree with this thought process as well. My Master often equates some of the things he does for me to a Ferrari. He says a fast, hot, strong car needs to be maintained to run well and needs to be waxed & buffed to be able to shine.
Varoom Varoom's what I say. I love being his Ferrari & he loves to drive me where ever he chooses knowing I won't let him down or leave him on the side of the road due to a lack of maintenance as He's careful to keep up with the oil changes & squeeks when he's supposed to.
Sincerely,
sub suzanne

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