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Questions about Serving - 7/16/2004 4:57:22 PM

Posts: 843
Joined: 6/2/2004
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i have questions regarding "serving." All too often, i see a sub (always a male) post a message stating he's looking for a Domme/Mistress to serve. The posts vary to some extent but the replies he receives almost invariably include something along the lines of "your profile says nothing about what you will do and focuses only on what you want." Even i get occasional responses to discussions i start or engage in where the advice is similar.

i think "serving" is a bit ambiguous and open to interpretation and is perhaps the best argument for being more specific about what a sub is offering. Some Dominants may simply want a nice fleshy canvas to lay a few "brush" strokes on, others may want personal services (such as a manicure, pedicure, or massage), still others are looking for domestic services, and depending on the level of intimacy...some form of sexual service may be part of the picture. All of this can overlap as well, naturally.

This is not meant to overlook the most critical aspect of serving...the sub's mind. One of the stumbling blocks almost all subs have that are new is shedding their preconceptions. In the process of doing so, i think this more than anything else reveals whether they are truly submissive or not...not only to Dommes but to themselves if they are open to honest self-reflection.

my own attitude towards serving is "all of the above." i anticipate having whatever skills and resources i currently possess made use of and improved upon through training and discipline. i also foresee new skills being required of me to learn and develop, and i see myself generally being conditioned and shaped into the servant that my Owner wishes to see at Her feet. Maybe i'm naive but to me this is what serving means.

So, may i ask the Collarme members their view on what is serving? And while on the subject, consider the following...should a sub come ready made and need no training as much as possible? Or is it better to be a clean slate, eager to learn and quick to remember? Some Dommes complain they don't want to work at training a slave while others say it's necessary for getting to know the sub.

It might be educational for some of the new subs in the lifestyle to be able to read what others have to say on the subject.

anthrosub

_____________________________

"It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde

RE: Questions about Serving - 7/18/2004 1:48:10 AM

MistressZanthia

Posts: 88
Joined: 7/2/2004
From: Seattle, Washington, USA
Status: offline

One way to look at it is this: What does it mean to your prospective dominant? We all have different flavors so it's a good bet you'll get a few different ideas and definitions to your question.

Serving to me is pretty much every thing you listed, depending on the depth of the relationship. Professional is limited, personal is not. My personal boy is a "service type submissive" as opposed to the ever popular "must be used slutty CD" or "diehard masochist" type (though it's possible to be a blend too). "Service" can mean everything from personal care to household chores to errands and sexual service. It depends on my mood and my needs.

As for "clean slates" and the seasoned server, it matters not to me. If he doesn't have the basic skills (cooking, cleaning, fetching, foot rubs/massage, oral skills, etc) I generally don't mind teaching him the basics... and as for cooking if the man can order & pickup really good takeout, I'll live. Some things of course are negotiable.

I'd like my current one to have better pedicure skills, but I don't mind if he takes me to the salon for it, hires a maid to clean if those aren't his areas (but it's cute when he cleans and I love it), you get the idea. But some things, well I am just high maintenance and he's fabulous at making me feel "served" and that's what counts. Pamper me and I am a happy lady.

The best thing you can do here is ask her, the one who counts what it means to her. As for a "getting to know the sub" thing, it can be, but for me it depends on the sub and what type of sub they are, male submissives come in assorted flavors and not all are "service" oriented.

_____________________________

~*Zan*~
www.zanthia.com

(in reply to anthrosub)

RE: Questions about Serving - 7/18/2004 3:49:40 AM

Posts: 544
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub
So, may i ask the Collarme members their view on what is serving? And while on the subject, consider the following...should a sub come ready made and need no training as much as possible? Or is it better to be a clean slate, eager to learn and quick to remember? Some Dommes complain they don't want to work at training a slave while others say it's necessary for getting to know the sub.

Living with a femdom has really been an eyeopener in this regard. The number of men professing to want to "serve" is staggering, yet when asked what that means the bulk of them list off their personal kinks. How is that serving anyone but themselves? They're looking for a life support system for a cunt and a whip it seems, not a way to enhance someone's life with their efforts.

I used to think "get a submissive guy to do it; they're always offering to do domestic service, etc " when things at home got overwhelming. Living with Suz really changed my opinions about that one. Imx, it takes more time to have these "service submissives" do something than it would take to do it yourself. First you have to show them how to do it, because they generally don't have the necessary skills. Then they want constant kudoos during the process, to keep them focused. When it's over, they expect to be played with as compensation. And then you have to go back behind them and do it again anyway, since they haven't done it right in the first place. I could do it myself with much less effort and time spent. There are exceptions, of course, but this has been the bulk of my experience with submissive men offering "service".

I remember one man who offered to come and do domestic service for Suz when we first started sharing living space. She had to make up a list of rules for him to follow - how to address each of us, expectation, etc. Then he wanted to strip and be "inspected" before starting. He cleaned the bathroom wearing only a cockring, and the tile in the shower did indeed shine when he was finished. But it took him FOUR HOURS to do it, and even with that he never got around to base of the toilet, the window ledges, the top of the mirror, etc. His initial offer had been to clean the house, but by the time he was done with the bathroom (which wasn't particularly dirty to begin with) he had had enough and went home, complete with one of her cockrings that I don't think was ever returned.

My advice is not to think you're doing her a favour when you offer service, because more often than not you're simply creating more work for her. Be honest about what skills you have and what you expect to get in return for them. "Training" is a significant investment of time and energy on her part. Take a cooking class; learn massage; go get a professional pedicures yourself so that you know what a *good* one is; know how to change the oil in a car.

There will always be personal thing to learn about her (like how she takes her tea, etc), but the more useful skills you bring to the table that might enhance her life, the better your chances are of being noticed. And don't bring up sex/play/kink until she indicates that she's interested in discussing that with you.

_____________________________

-- Sherri

Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity.

(in reply to anthrosub)

RE: Questions about Serving - 7/18/2004 8:17:32 AM

Posts: 1881
Joined: 1/1/2004
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I usually tell people who have managed to catch my attention that their best bet is to hang around and figure out ways to 'fit in and contribute.' Then I leave it to them to do so. I never set appointments to meet new people on the premise that they want to 'serve' anymore. If we are a match then that will evolve quite naturally out of 'normal' interactions. If they want it to evolve then they will find a way to endear themself to me, usually by figuring out what needs to be done and doing it. To me, that shows me that they are primarily interested in making my life easier, as opposed to getting their kink needs met. This I find VERY attractive and will make time to cultivate. But I won't sift through the haystack looking for the needle. The needle has to be someplace I can trip over it.

As Sherri has pointed out, training is time consuming. Before I bother with it I need to know that it's worth the trouble. Someone who has taken some initiative to be helpful without need of the trappings is someone I will find worth the trouble.

As for skills I would find useful, well...everyone is different and I much prefer to assess what an individual's strengths and weaknesses are, then try to make use of the strengths and (in time) cultivate or improve upon the weaknesses. Some people come to the table with excellent carpentry skills but couldn't tell you which end of a toilet bowl brush to use. Others are excellent with domestic duties but would have to take the car to have the oil changed because they don't know where the bolt or the filter is located (or how to check it, for that matter). I've had subs who were trying to 'fix' something they knew nothing about who ended up breaking things I subsequently had to take to get fixed. This is not helpful.

If you want to acquire skills while you're waiting to find that special someone then I recommend learning things in a broad way. Example: Massage is a wonderful skill to bring to the table, but some people prefer swedish (superficial and light) massage while I personally prefer deep tissue. Swedish massage pisses me off as a waste of my time, but deep tissue can down right hurt if you don't know what you're doing. So learn the anatomy of a human and how that relates to massage - this is information that you can use across the board. If you're going to learn manicures and pedicures then go to a salon and have both done professionally; and go more than once so you can see that everyone has their own techniques. Reflexology is a nice enhancement to these skills. Yes, gentlemen do get manicures and pedicures and the salon will not bat an eye if you go in there to get yours done. Learn how to french braid hair (even if her hair is short she may find use for this skill in other ways). Learn some topping skills - if you accompany her out and she plays with someone else you will have more insight into how to 'assist' her if the need arises. Learn how to square corners when making a bed, just in case she prefers it that way (many do not). If you're going to learn to cook then do some research on different diets. Do you know what the difference between complex and simple carbohydrates is? Do you know the difference between 'good' fat and 'bad' fat? One woman may do atkins or southbeach diets while another may prefer plenty of complex carbs but NO simple sugars/carbs. Could you prepare an entire vegetarian meal, if needed, that would be not only tasty but also nutritious? Can you set and serve a formal dinner table? Do you know which fork to use if you're sitting at a formal table with her? Can you hang pictures, curtains, blinds so they hang straight? Do you know how to tell which furniture gets the non-wax polish and which should get the oil/wax?

I could go on, but I hope you get my drift.

_____________________________

“The more you love, the more you can love—and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.”
- Robert Heinlein

(in reply to anthrosub)

RE: Questions about Serving - 7/18/2004 9:39:34 PM

Posts: 264
Joined: 6/6/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MizSuz

I usually tell people who have managed to catch my attention that their best bet is to hang around and figure out ways to 'fit in and contribute.' Then I leave it to them to do so. If we are a match then that will evolve quite naturally out of 'normal' interactions. If they want it to evolve then they will find a way to endear themself to me, usually by figuring out what needs to be done and doing it. To me, that shows me that they are primarily interested in making my life easier, as opposed to getting their kink needs met. This I find VERY attractive and will make time to cultivate.

From a service submissive's point of view, this works well for me. I don't like a long list of rules coming in the door. A short list is a better start. You may have me so busy doing one thing that you miss out on other things I can do better and would serve you better. I like knowing preferences. I love surprising someone just by listening and following through. I like to feel I'm enhancing my partner's life - that has never been about kink for me. The kink stuff is a bonus :-)

However, I've been told my attitude is rare by past partners.

--bailey

_____________________________

Dance like no one's watching and
Love like you've never been hurt.

(in reply to MizSuz)

RE: Questions about Serving - 7/18/2004 10:08:43 PM

Posts: 1675
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Tidewater, VA
Status: offline

quote:

However, I've been told my attitude is rare by past partners.

My most dear girl-

Add your current, if distant, partner to the list.

Stay warm,
Lawrence

_____________________________

-there is no remission without blood-

(in reply to baileythorne)

RE: Questions about Serving - 7/19/2004 12:03:59 AM

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Joined: 4/26/2004
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Hello,

I personally keep my house a certain way. I wouldnt call it an anal retentive's dream, but I really dislike the bed being unmade, dirty dishes in the sink when I make coffee in the morning, etc.

I am not sure I agree with the point about "It usually takes longer to explain how to do it..."

A person who is really submissive will be more than willing to learn how to do it, and will make the effort to do it.

A "Do-me" submissive wont. I think they will tend to do things to the level they perceive as "good enough" to get beaten.

Just me, could be wrong.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to topcat)

RE: Questions about Serving - 7/19/2004 2:50:21 AM

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Joined: 5/10/2004
From: New Castle, PA
Status: offline

(not in reply to sinergy, but a general observation made from reading the thread)

what reading the posts in this thread brought to my mind is the character in the first Marketplace book who wants to be a pleasure sub, and is shocked to find that it does NOT just entail being a good lay

sort of like the 'do me' subs who say 'let me serve you' while expecting their kinks to be met

not sure how relevant this is, but thought I would share it anyway

Apply usual caveats here

_____________________________

Apply Usual Caveats Here

An expert is somone who has made all the mistakes there are to be made

(in reply to Sinergy)

RE: Questions about Serving - 7/19/2004 2:26:57 PM

Posts: 891
Joined: 4/17/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SherriA
Living with a femdom has really been an eyeopener in this regard.

Your post was eyeopening for me, too. Thanks, Sherri.

January

_____________________________

[link: http://www.bookstrand.com/miss-you-sir] Miss You, Sir by January Rowe is available from Siren now! It's my latest smokin' hot bdsm romance.[/link]

(in reply to SherriA)

RE: Questions about Serving - 7/19/2004 2:47:37 PM

PassionateNights

Posts: 49
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

i'll throw in my two cents worth as well. i know how hard it can be to be a Dominant, the last thing in the world i want to be is another thing on her checklist (right out instructions for sean to clean this, do this). i think that a good submissive spends a lot of time observing his Dominant and paying attention to details. Submissive does not have to translate into "cannot function without instructions". if she comes home and looks tired, perhaps the offer of a foot rub, or a scented bath.....perhaps i suspected this when i talked to her on the phone..lit a few candles put on some "relaxing music..whatever works for her" and let her know when she walks through the door she is special. - yes i'm making decisions, dictating the tempo of the evening....she'll correct me if i'm wrong or out of line. i store up good ideas....notes on things she lingered over when shopping....music she comments on....plays or events she tals about....i think the nuts and bolts are different...but is about being observant and figuring out how and where to be usefull, in whatever parameters your Dominant desires. Once the parameters are set....be proactive, until corrected.
But, my fundamental need is to please.....getting that "good boy" or "awww sweetie" are the selfish indulgance that is the food for my submissive soul.

so there's my perspective

(in reply to Thanatosian)

RE: Questions about Serving - 7/19/2004 5:10:57 PM

Posts: 1881
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PassionateNights

i'll throw in my two cents worth as well. i know how hard it can be to be a Dominant, the last thing in the world i want to be is another thing on her checklist (right out instructions for sean to clean this, do this). i think that a good submissive spends a lot of time observing his Dominant and paying attention to details. Submissive does not have to translate into "cannot function without instructions". if she comes home and looks tired, perhaps the offer of a foot rub, or a scented bath.....perhaps i suspected this when i talked to her on the phone..lit a few candles put on some "relaxing music..whatever works for her" and let her know when she walks through the door she is special. - yes i'm making decisions, dictating the tempo of the evening....she'll correct me if i'm wrong or out of line. i store up good ideas....notes on things she lingered over when shopping....music she comments on....plays or events she tals about....i think the nuts and bolts are different...but is about being observant and figuring out how and where to be usefull, in whatever parameters your Dominant desires. Once the parameters are set....be proactive, until corrected.
But, my fundamental need is to please.....getting that "good boy" or "awww sweetie" are the selfish indulgance that is the food for my submissive soul.

so there's my perspective

Now see??? THAT'S a post that gets my attention!

Well said.

_____________________________

“The more you love, the more you can love—and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.”
- Robert Heinlein

(in reply to PassionateNights)

RE: Questions about Serving - 7/19/2004 5:15:55 PM

Posts: 1881
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: baileythorne

I like to feel I'm enhancing my partner's life - that has never been about kink for me. The kink stuff is a bonus :-)

However, I've been told my attitude is rare by past partners.

--bailey

It's a rare quality, indeed. It's the sort of spark that gets my interest.

_____________________________

“The more you love, the more you can love—and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.”
- Robert Heinlein

(in reply to baileythorne)

RE: Questions about Serving - 7/19/2004 5:16:50 PM

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

i'll throw in my two cents worth as well. i know how hard it can be to be a Dominant, the last thing in the world i want to be is another thing on her checklist (right out instructions for sean to clean this, do this). i think that a good submissive spends a lot of time observing his Dominant and paying attention to details. Submissive does not have to translate into "cannot function without instructions". if she comes home and looks tired, perhaps the offer of a foot rub, or a scented bath.....perhaps i suspected this when i talked to her on the phone..lit a few candles put on some "relaxing music..whatever works for her" and let her know when she walks through the door she is special. - yes i'm making decisions, dictating the tempo of the evening....she'll correct me if i'm wrong or out of line. i store up good ideas....notes on things she lingered over when shopping....music she comments on....plays or events she tals about....i think the nuts and bolts are different...but is about being observant and figuring out how and where to be usefull, in whatever parameters your Dominant desires. Once the parameters are set....be proactive, until corrected.
But, my fundamental need is to please.....getting that "good boy" or "awww sweetie" are the selfish indulgance that is the food for my submissive soul.

so there's my perspective

Hello,

I have to agree with this, but I did want to add my two cents.

I had a submissive who wanted me to micromanage her life down to when to go to the restroom, and what she should be doing at any particular part of the day.

This request (which I did not agree to do) I personally view with quite a bit of distaste. I have enough I am trying to keep track of in my life that I found being asked to manage hers somewhat irritating.

I am a very giving person. I buy my partner gifts, I pick wildflowers to give her, I love giving her footrubs. Taking care of my toy is something that really makes me happy.

I like being given a nice glass of wine. I like having my coffee made the way I like it and brought to me. I like having her call me frequently to let me know she is ok. I find adding management of her life to my to-do list to be very similar in my mind to my attitude toward a "do-me submissive." I like to care for my submissive, I do not see this as a synonym for providing her absolution from the responsibilities which go along with life.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to PassionateNights)

RE: Questions about Serving - 7/19/2004 5:30:09 PM

Posts: 1881
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

This request (which I did not agree to do) I personally view with quite a bit of distaste. I have enough I am trying to keep track of in my life that I found being asked to manage hers somewhat irritating.

<snipped by Suz>

......I like to care for my submissive, I do not see this as a synonym for providing her absolution from the responsibilities which go along with life.

Sinergy

The first paragraph reminds me of one variation of what I call 'enslaving with slavery.' If dominating you means I have to increase my agita/ stress factor, as opposed to having pleasant reminders of why I take the trouble (as all relationships can at one time or another be a kind of 'work') to have someone special in my life, then you've removed more than half of the reason why I would bother. That pretty much leaves me with a whole lotta 'why bother?'

Micromanagement is not for me. The down side to not micromanaging is that some often will assume that, because you don't make demands often or regularly, the demands that you do make are liquid and mutable. Bad assumption.

_____________________________

“The more you love, the more you can love—and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.”
- Robert Heinlein

(in reply to Sinergy)

RE: Questions about Serving - 7/19/2004 8:09:42 PM

Posts: 264
Joined: 6/6/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

I had a submissive who wanted me to micromanage her life down to when to go to the restroom, and what she should be doing at any particular part of the day. This request (which I did not agree to do) I personally view with quite a bit of distaste.

I have come to the conclusion that there are two broad classes of Masters or Dominants:
1) those that micromanage 2) those that want to give direction and leave the details to their partner.

There are slaves / submissives that crave each style.

Neither is right or wrong. The trick is to determine your preference and find a partner with the complimentary style.

--bailey

_____________________________

Dance like no one's watching and
Love like you've never been hurt.

(in reply to Sinergy)

RE: Questions about Serving - 7/19/2004 9:01:52 PM

TallDarkAndWitty

Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: baileythorne
I have come to the conclusion that there are two broad classes of Masters or Dominants:
1) those that micromanage 2) those that want to give direction and leave the details to their partner.

Being amongst the micromanaging lot (sorta kinda), I still demand that my slave think for herself and act on her own. I like to create the rules and structure of the relationship and then have fun within it. Yet thinking outside the box and between the lines is highly encouraged and rewarded.

Yours,
Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.

My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to baileythorne)

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