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Human Error - 10/4/2005 9:57:12 AM

aurea

Posts: 2
Joined: 10/4/2005
Status: offline

I have a question that I cannot seem to reconcile in my own mind. I have been told that perfection is the goal of all kajira, but on the same note I have been told that Gorean men do not expect perfection. The question is, when a slave does something incorrectly, she is punished..seldom does it matter the cause just that the action was found displeasing, so if a Gorean Master understands that perfection is not attainable..then why are the expectations and ramifications of less than punishable? Is there no allowance for human error? Are slaves girls expected to achieve the unattainable?

aurea

Post #: 1

RE: Human Error - 10/4/2005 10:11:20 AM

Lexii

Posts: 7
Joined: 9/14/2005
Status: offline

All humans err. From dominants to children. The goal with punishment is to help the "offender" see what went wrong and strive to not make the same mistake twice. If someone is not disciplined for their actions, how will they learn and be able to strive for perfection. So, no it's not attainable, but as a kajira - wouldn't she want to try?

(in reply to aurea)

Post #: 2

RE: Human Error - 10/4/2005 10:12:41 AM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

Set your goals at the unattainable and you will reach the unimaginable... The unattainable just gets further away..... Basic goal setting 101.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to aurea)

Post #: 3

RE: Human Error - 10/4/2005 10:38:08 AM

Raphael

Posts: 263
Joined: 5/10/2005
Status: offline

Punishment is negative feedback. Both positive and negative feedback are sometimes helpful. No, perfection is not possible, or expected. But that's no excuse to quit improving. And responding to feedback is how you improve.

I prefer positive feedback, I'd suspect most sane Masters do. But neglecting negative feedback, in the long run, isn't being nice - it's being lazy, and really it's shortchanging the girl. There are times when there is just nothing as effective as a raw, aching bottom to help a girl remember and focus on what's important.

(in reply to aurea)

Post #: 4

RE: Human Error - 10/4/2005 11:10:45 AM

nephandi

Posts: 3930
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline

i am towards perfection in all i do, that way i will aways do my best, even if that is not perfection.

(in reply to Raphael)

Post #: 5

RE: Human Error - 10/4/2005 11:46:27 AM

lisaSea

Posts: 340
Joined: 8/27/2005
Status: offline

Greetings Masters, Mistresses and slaves...

aurea,

Interesting question :) I wish to respond to one portion of your post, speaking only for how things are done at Masters home, of course.

The question is, when a slave does something incorrectly, she is punished..seldom does it matter the cause just that the action was found displeasing

Not here. Example; When I received a phone call telling me that my father was dying and while taking that call my mind was on the news being told me and not his burning dinner...that was not something done intentionally, Master understood that I was not being lazy and ignoring his meal. If I had been yakking on the phone with a girl and totally forgot his meal, then yes, I would feel the whip.

It all depends on what the man in each particular house finds displeasing. Masters rule is simple.. if it was something I knew beforehand not to attempt, or by being unattentive in the mode of being lazy..these are things he finds displeasing and more then not, will cause punishment. So here, the cause is relevant.

While I continually strive for that elusive goal and some days it feels like I am doing the moonwalk..(three steps forward, five back)... to give up would be the end of our relating. This I have been told flat out, the day I cease to "attempt" pleasing him, is the day the collar comes off and we part ways. He asks only that I continue to try.

Hoping this helps with your query a little...*smiles*

lisa{Sea's}

_____________________________

I prefer to think of it as aged to perfection, rather then just plain getting older.

http://www.geocities.com/house_of_sea

(in reply to aurea)

Post #: 6

RE: Human Error - 10/4/2005 3:58:30 PM

Webmaster60

Posts: 396
Joined: 9/10/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: aurea
The question is, when a slave does something incorrectly, she is punished..seldom does it matter the cause just that the action was found displeasing, so if a Gorean Master understands that perfection is not attainable..then why are the expectations and ramifications of less than punishable? Is there no allowance for human error? Are slaves girls expected to achieve the unattainable?

This is one Masters thinking. Mine.
If a girl goes something incorrectly I ask myself:
Did the slave know what was expected, Did she fully understand my intent?
Is the slave Capable of doing it correctly?

If the answer is no to either of the above, then the fault is mine. I must rethink the training the slave has had, and find another way to deliver to her mind my intent in a way that can be accomplished by the slave.

Were there any matters of mitigation in the failure? If yes, this may determine the type of "redirection".

Anything else... careless, unmotivated, apathetic, would apways result in punishment.

Perfection girl? No. Trying each day to be better than the day before? absolutely. does a girl sometings need to be reminded of that goal? Yes.

Master Michael

_____________________________

Master Michael
~~~~~~~~~~
"To sin in silence when he should
speak makes cowards of men"

(in reply to aurea)

Post #: 7

RE: Human Error - 10/4/2005 4:15:49 PM

Leonidas

Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline

quote:

I have a question that I cannot seem to reconcile in my own mind. I have been told that perfection is the goal of all kajira, but on the same note I have been told that Gorean men do not expect perfection.

Perfect obedience is the duty of all kajirae. In that way, you are perfectly in accord with your master's wishes. That is the only perfection to which you must aspire as a kajira. To say that there is some universal standard of perfection would be to say that every man wants exactly the same thing in a slave girl, which is obviously false.

quote:

The question is, when a slave does something incorrectly, she is punished..seldom does it matter the cause just that the action was found displeasing, so if a Gorean Master understands that perfection is not attainable..then why are the expectations and ramifications of less than punishable?

Yes, slave girl, you are subject to being disciplined if you displease your master, or if you fail to fulfill the duty of perfect obedience that I mentioned above. If you are a smart girl, you will come to know fairly quickly that which pleases him, and that which does not and so you'll end up being disciplined less frequently. If you aren't so smart, it will take longer.

quote:

so if a Gorean Master understands that perfection is not attainable..then why are the expectations and ramifications of less than punishable? Is there no allowance for human error?

A Gorean master expects you to obey him, and please him. When you fail to do so, he'll most likely be strict, and harsh with you. If you are a lucky girl he will make few if any allowances. The day that he does start making allowances is the day that he has started to lose interest in you.

quote:

Are slaves girls expected to achieve the unattainable?

If you truly feel that obeying and pleasing your master is unattainable, it's time to beg him to sell you, or let you go. Until that day, you can expect that he will guide you toward being able to do so. His guidance may be more harsh and uncompromising than you are used to. He's not a typical man. He doesn't make excuses for himself, and he will accept precious few from you.

Serve well, slave girl.

_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to aurea)

Post #: 8

RE: Human Error - 10/4/2005 9:08:21 PM

kisshou

Posts: 2425
Joined: 2/11/2005
Status: offline

greetings aurea,

Thank you for posing such an interesting question. Perfection is not my goal and never has been, what I strive for always is to be found pleasing. The Owner has two requirements: absolute obedience and exquisite beauty. From reading your question it seems like you have combined/confused the two.

If a slave is anything less than absolutely obedient , the slave will be punished. As for exquisite beauty I do my best always to create an environment of beauty for the Owner in all ways. Beauty is subject to what the Owner finds it to be. It is more than outward appearance of the slave , it is her movements, voice, how his home is kept, his meals in taste, arrangement and service and a multitude of other things.

When I try my best to be found pleasing I am punished yet when I do my best to be found pleasing , He is pleased and I am fulfilled.

well wishes
kiss

(in reply to aurea)

Post #: 9

RE: Human Error - 10/5/2005 7:32:08 AM

lisaSea

Posts: 340
Joined: 8/27/2005
Status: offline

Greetings Master Leonidas,

The following words in your post struck a chord and I pray my response is found not only pleasing, but adds a little something to the thread

.

His guidance may be more harsh and uncompromising than you are used to. He's not a typical man. He doesn't make excuses for himself, and he will accept precious few from you.

I wonder how many households forbid the word, "but"...or "I didn't mean to"... *smiles*

(Two phrases that can remove the smile from Masters face in a heartbeat) While he may determine that my actions were not done with intent, it is not up to me to bring this to his attention. Nor does he view it favorably. There have also been times when I felt my actions were an honest mistake and he felt differently and punishement followed. Such is life.

Howabout crying.."not fair?".... *buzzer sound*. Once again, not wise words to allow out of ones mouth,

There will be times undoubtedly when things seem VERY unfair..harsh or uncompromising, however, that is why we are here, no? Personally, If I wished a "yes dear" kind of man, they are a dime a dozen and available on any street corner.

lisa{Sea's}

_____________________________

I prefer to think of it as aged to perfection, rather then just plain getting older.

http://www.geocities.com/house_of_sea

(in reply to Leonidas)

Post #: 10

RE: Human Error - 10/5/2005 10:20:42 AM

caitlyn

Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline

This isn't meant to be another one of those "cause drama with the Gorean guys" posts.

These are honest questions asked in the spirit of learning, and the "you" used in these questions doesn't apply to anyone in particular. Lets call "you", Master X.

Should you ask perfection of others, if you are not yourself perfect?

If that is true, who makes sure you are perfect?

If you punish those that fall short of perfect, who punishes you when you fall short?

Again, this is totally not a "bash the Goreans" post. I clearly don't get this whole thread, and equally clearly admit that in advance. There is no real point to saying, "Caitlyn, you don't get it." Trust me, I'm way ahead of you on that one.

I don't understand how you get to the "there" expressed in this thread, and even more so, don't understand why anyone would want to even go there in the first place.

Thanks ... caitlyn

P.S. Please, lets not let this turn into something where the Moderators have to step in.

(in reply to lisaSea)

Post #: 11

RE: Human Error - 10/5/2005 10:42:38 AM

Leonidas

Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline

quote:

Should you ask perfection of others, if you are not yourself perfect?

Well, I don't see anyone here (except the OP) suggesting that perfection (if there were such a thing) is expected of a slave. What I said is that the expectation is perfect obedience . Do I have the right to expect perfect obedience from a slave that I own? I think so, and I think that most other Goreans think so too.

Why do I have the right to expect that? When a slave kneels and submits to the collar (at least in the case of a Gorean collar) she surrenders her personal autonomy. She puts her life in her master's hands, and when he accepts her submission, the responsibility for the outcomes in her life (what happens to her, and what she becomes) falls to him. To carry out that absolute and awesome responsiblity for the life of another human being, he must have absolute authority. Any disobedience on the part of the slave subverts that authority, and takes the outcomes for which the master is responsible out of his hands.

A concrete example is edana's (my slave's) feed and conditioning schedule. She eats only, and exactly, what I prescribe for her. She exercises according to a schedule that I give her. If she deviates from either, even a little, without permission, I'm likely to punish her. If you think about what I wrote above, you'll understand why. How she looks, and her health, are my responsibility. She surrendered control over those things when she knelt and was collared.

quote:

If you punish those that fall short of perfect, who punishes you when you fall short?

Reality. The realities of life punish me if I fall short. I am free (not a slave) so the outcomes that I achieve in my life are up to me, not someone else. If I don't eat right or exercise, I'll be unhealthy and look bad. If I don't pay my bills, I'll lose what I have. If I don't work, I'll be broke. I am the captain of my own boat, in other words. Edana isn't. She is a submitted slave, so the outcomes that she achieves are up to me and because of that, she owes me her obedience.

quote:

I don't understand how you get to the "there" expressed in this thread, and even more so, don't understand why anyone would want to even go there in the first place.

I'm not quite sure where you think "there" is. Maybe you can explain a little more.

_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 12

RE: Human Error - 10/5/2005 11:45:49 AM

EmeraldSlave2

Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

Just also to iterate that this issue isn't necessarily a gorean one as well, many non-gorean relationships have the same standards and perspectives in this regard.

I get so confused by people who say they want the dom to have the authority and make the rules and then get upset when it actually happens.

(in reply to Leonidas)

Post #: 13

RE: Human Error - 10/5/2005 12:33:38 PM

Raeesha

Posts: 2
Joined: 9/30/2005
From: South Carolina
Status: offline

The question is, when a slave does something incorrectly, she is punished..seldom does it matter the cause just that the action was found displeasing, so if a Gorean Master understands that perfection is not attainable..then why are the expectations and ramifications of less than punishable? Is there no allowance for human error? Are slaves girls expected to achieve the unattainable?

Tal and Greetings,

This poses an interesting position. I do not believe it is so much the Masters/Mistresses that expect perfection of the girl, I believe it is the girl themselves that expect perfection. It has been My experience that a slave is harder on themself than any Master or Mistress could be. The mere thought that an Owner is dissapointed in them can crush a girl. It is then the Owners responsability to reaffirm for the slave that yes they made a mistake, must be punished so they learn from it, and that in turn teaches them what is truly expected of them.

Just My own two cents worth.

I wish You well

Raeesha

(in reply to aurea)

Post #: 14

RE: Human Error - 10/5/2005 1:18:04 PM

caitlyn

Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas

I'm not quite sure where you think "there" is. Maybe you can explain a little more.

Actually, you answered this question with the answers you gave to the others. Thank you very much for the information and thank you again for being patient.

(in reply to Leonidas)

Post #: 15

RE: Human Error - 10/5/2005 1:20:38 PM

nephandi

Posts: 3930
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline

Ok to take an examle form my favorite occult book, Modern Magick by Don Kreig. In it he tells of how a frind of his, another magician came to him whit a text she had written on magick, Kreig emidiatly did see that it was not her best and he told her so and she said yes, she had gone for what she belived to be adequete, no he said, he best way to go aboute writing a good text, or working magick or anything is do your best, make sure that the effort you give out are your best, then it do not matter how good the result are, for you did your best. The same i think is true for slavery.

(in reply to Raeesha)

Post #: 16

RE: Human Error - 10/5/2005 3:16:39 PM

ownedjulia

Posts: 218
Joined: 10/5/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raeesha

The question is, when a slave does something incorrectly, she is punished..seldom does it matter the cause just that the action was found displeasing, so if a Gorean Master understands that perfection is not attainable..then why are the expectations and ramifications of less than punishable? Is there no allowance for human error? Are slaves girls expected to achieve the unattainable?

Yes. a slave should always strive for perfection in any task her Master sets her. To do less is to insult the Master.

Perfection cannot always be achievied and this must be recognised but if the task is done wrong or not completed with the goal of being perfect then the slave should be punished.

_____________________________

~julia
owned slave and proud of it!

(in reply to Raeesha)

Post #: 17

RE: Human Error - 10/5/2005 6:53:39 PM

warlok762

Posts: 22
Joined: 4/10/2004
Status: offline

you know emerald slave I read alot of posts on here and I don't know what it is about you, but the few things I do know is one you never have anything nice to say to anyone. Its like your always just so angry. I think you need to look within yourself for the issues before you go and start attacking posts from others.

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)

Post #: 18

RE: Human Error - 10/5/2005 10:15:13 PM

Nosathro

Posts: 1475
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: online

Tal Now this is an interesting topic. As a Master do I demand perfection from a slave, a goal to work for but diffcult to achieve. I do not think kajiars were expected to be perfect...beautiful and obedient was the goal. As a Master that does not mean I do not challenge a slave to continue to try to imporve herself. I only punish when there is willful disobedence, and encourage and praise her for her efforts, and always guide her.

I Wish You Well

Nosathro

(in reply to aurea)

Post #: 19

RE: Human Error - 10/5/2005 10:45:00 PM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10836
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

The cause (or I would say the REASON) matters, and any master who doesn't take the circumstances into account cannot administer effective punishment. The purpose of punishment is to show a mistake and prevent it from occurring again. If a master does not know the reasons for the mistake, no punishment can prevent it from occurring again.

quote:

ORIGINAL: aurea

The question is, when a slave does something incorrectly, she is punished..seldom does it matter the cause just that the action was found displeasing

(in reply to aurea)

Post #: 20

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