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Women in general. - 10/7/2005 3:14:27 AM

nephandi

Posts: 3930
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline

Some resent discussions have lead me to this topic. In the Gor books, free women were respected, surly the men considerd themself superior yes, but they were not rude to a free woman. Free women were fellow men`s mothers, sisters, daugthers and compannions.

The Goreans one often meet online, and i am not talking RPG sites, i am talking sites like this one is often werry rude to women, but basicaly all women that are not a slave, are free. Now i am not saying they should act the way some feminists want, the sensible Goreans i have met act more like oldfashiond gentlmen, making sure a woman get safely home, and things like that, and for me that is an oldfshiond girl that is just charming not rude.

What i mean by rude is that some Gorean men call all women slut, now in the books if you call a free woman slut, one of three things is likely to happen, a bitchslap, her walking away head held heigh to show how little your coment means for her, or if she is rich, you getting a not to frindly encounter whit her guards.

In the Gor books women is considerd below men in rank, and they are considerd to be the ones that are ruled, not the ones the rule, but they are not considerd less worth than the men, there is a differance, many Gorean men i have talked whit have the women is weaker than men, women need to be lead and protected, mutch like the Victorian women and children first mentality, this is fine, but some seam to think I am Gorean therefore all women are slaves and all women must obey me for I have a penis.

It was mentiond erlier pepole not learning the lifestyle, just adopiting thing from online, well this tendency to be rude or even cruel to women in general is one of the only things i have found to be a problem whit it in my opinion.

Post #: 1

RE: Women in general. - 10/7/2005 4:37:24 AM

krys

Posts: 611
Joined: 8/24/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: nephandi

Some resent discussions have lead me to this topic. In the Gor books, free women were respected, surly the men considerd themself superior yes, but they were not rude to a free woman. Free women were fellow men`s mothers, sisters, daugthers and compannions.

The Goreans one often meet online, and i am not talking RPG sites, i am talking sites like this one is often werry rude to women, but basicaly all women that are not a slave, are free. Now i am not saying they should act the way some feminists want, the sensible Goreans i have met act more like oldfashiond gentlmen, making sure a woman get safely home, and things like that, and for me that is an oldfshiond girl that is just charming not rude.

What i mean by rude is that some Gorean men call all women slut, now in the books if you call a free woman slut, one of three things is likely to happen, a bitchslap, her walking away head held heigh to show how little your coment means for her, or if she is rich, you getting a not to frindly encounter whit her guards.

In the Gor books women is considerd below men in rank, and they are considerd to be the ones that are ruled, not the ones the rule, but they are not considerd less worth than the men, there is a differance, many Gorean men i have talked whit have the women is weaker than men, women need to be lead and protected, mutch like the Victorian women and children first mentality, this is fine, but some seam to think I am Gorean therefore all women are slaves and all women must obey me for I have a penis.

It was mentiond erlier pepole not learning the lifestyle, just adopiting thing from online, well this tendency to be rude or even cruel to women in general is one of the only things i have found to be a problem whit it in my opinion.

You have brought up this icident several times, being referred to as "slut", over quite some time though it appears to have only occured once when you went to one chat room. One man and one incident does not a pervasive Gorean behavior make.

As I said, it appears this occurred in a chat room. Your profile states that you are a submissive woman. If you walk into a Gorean chat room, lowercase nick, and submissive profile, saying you wish to learn, most people are going to assume that you are looking to learn to be a slave. The fact that you are submissive, you are owned, and you are in a Gorean chat room, but you expect to be treated as a free woman is sending confusing and mixed messages. Its up to you to make the mixed signals clear. "Slut" is usually considered a compliment amongst Gorean slave girls. A girl is prized for her sexuality, her heat, and "slut" acknowledges that. Its hardly cruel.

Kajira do not subscribe to the "I am a slave, but I am not YOUR slave" mentality. We are slaves. That's it, no qualifiers. For example, if I travelled to my best friend's house without my Master, her Master would treat me as a slave, even though I belong to someone else.

On a final note, if you are expecting Gorean men to adhere to your expectations for their behavior, I'm afraid you will be highly disappointed. Each will individually behave as they see fit, whether you like it or not.

_____________________________

Krys

(in reply to nephandi)

Post #: 2

RE: Women in general. - 10/7/2005 4:48:26 AM

nephandi

Posts: 3930
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline

It have happend several times, did i mention the chat room episode this time, no, nor am i the only one that ahve this problem, and in eatch event i have replied politly, i am not Gorean, nor do i wish to be, i am just here to learn, and as i said it is not just chatrooms, it is also in mails i get, and it is not just me.

Also, while Goreans as well as others can say and do what they wish on an online forum, and pepole frequently use that as an exuse to insult others, i do see that kind of behavior as a problem, from anyone, also it seam to be a bit strange that the Goreans are quik to point out that somone use such and such word wrong, but seam to like to ignore other aspects of the books, like for example a general politness towards one another, even to women that go though most of the charecter intereactions in the books.

(in reply to krys)

Post #: 3

RE: Women in general. - 10/7/2005 6:49:45 AM

nenakajira

Posts: 221
Joined: 7/14/2005
Status: offline

You're right... the free were, generally though not always, polite to each other. But now you run into our definitions vs yours. You are owned. By definition then, you are not Free. That automatically puts you being treated in the same ways that slaves might be treated. There aren't any "in between" definitions.

If it offends you so much, don't talk to Gorean men.

(in reply to nephandi)

Post #: 4

RE: Women in general. - 10/7/2005 7:27:59 AM

starshineowned

Posts: 1551
Joined: 4/19/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline

Greetings..~smiles~

Neph..if anything you have seen or heard from those who profess to be Goreans being online or elsewhere is rude..then I can show you in a heartbeat a place where BDSM rules, and what you are called there and thought of is timid compared to your examples. Many a time at this place you dont even get the luxury of being called a "slut"..your just a "it".

Explore explore explore

starshine
Happy slave of Master Delvin

(in reply to nenakajira)

Post #: 5

RE: Women in general. - 10/7/2005 7:35:39 AM

Nosathro

Posts: 1476
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline

Tal Now, here is were I do have trouble with my fellow Goreans, especailly the onlines one. Gor is a highly structured society. It is not that Men are superior to Women it was just that there was on order and Men were at the top, well close to it. Gorean Males did not enslave the Women, in the mythology Men and Women had a battle and the Women lost, The Priest Kings rather then kill them made them beauitful and made them slaves.

Of course there is an expection to every rule, even on Gor. Free Women did have rights, even one City was ruled by a Woman and a counsel of Women. The Free Woman was above a slave but that could change if she violated any of the rules. In fact some Men had their Free Champion in a collar for a time to show her what she had to lose. In some Cities a time collar was used on Free Women as a punishment.

I Wish You Well

Nosathro

(in reply to nephandi)

Post #: 6

RE: Women in general. - 10/7/2005 7:46:52 AM

nephandi

Posts: 3930
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline

Thank you for the replies all of you.

nena, would you consider me Gorean? no, by the Gorean definition would i be a slave? no. Goreans can go on quite a bit whit how they are different from BDSM pepole, and i agree, at least to some extent they are, well since i am into BDSM not Gor, what do it matter if i am submissive or not?

(in reply to Nosathro)

Post #: 7

RE: Women in general. - 10/7/2005 8:20:48 AM

JustaTop

Posts: 511
Joined: 10/5/2005
Status: offline

I have little respect for masters who show so little emotional control as to call ANYONE slut. It reeks of insecure posturing,and an inability to behave with restraint. Tact is a nessecary social lubricant,and those who supposedly control need to realize it begins with them-or they won't be in that position amoung peers for long.

If one of these idiots dared to address other men in this fashion-they would find themselves tasting steel in an arena in short order. And the same could easily occur from insulting the free companion of another. So this probably comes more from mere misogynists who role play masters-not actual ones.

(in reply to nephandi)

Post #: 8

RE: Women in general. - 10/7/2005 8:28:23 AM

JohnWarren

Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JustaTop

If one of these idiots dared to address other men in this fashion-they would find themselves tasting steel in an arena in short order. And the same could easily occur from insulting the free companion of another. So this probably comes more from mere misogynists who role play masters-not actual ones.

Just how many serious combats have you seen in the Gorean community? I would think that the police might take action in such an event. After all this IS Earth.

This does seem to be a big difficulty for the purists: just how much can one take from admittedly fiction books and how much has to be dropped as inappropriate.

In my time here on CollarMe, I've seen some serious, rational discussion about this problem among people who seem to be working hard to make a workable lifestyle ... and then we get this kind of comment.

It is a bit confusing

_____________________________

www.lovingdominant.org

(in reply to JustaTop)

Post #: 9

RE: Women in general. - 10/7/2005 8:33:15 AM

edana

Posts: 594
Joined: 10/13/2004
Status: offline

quote:

I have little respect for masters who show so little emotional control as to call ANYONE slut.

Greetings,

my master refers to me as "slut" usually in the sentence of "my" and "little". a term that used to be emotionally harmful to me when i was growing up, no longer is. the fact that i am a slut is no longer a weapon that can hurt me.

If another man called me a slut, i would most likely laugh and nod my head and say "you have NO idea." Like i said, it is no longer a weapon that can hurt my feelings.

The feelings the word causes in me has changed, why? Because i accept that i am a very hightly sexed female. I am now no longer ashamed of it. Thanks to my Master.

< Message edited by edana -- 10/7/2005 8:35:31 AM >

_____________________________

In service,

edana

"Discipline turns talent into ability"

(in reply to JustaTop)

Post #: 10

RE: Women in general. - 10/7/2005 10:32:50 AM

nenakajira

Posts: 221
Joined: 7/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: nephandi

Thank you for the replies all of you.

nena, would you consider me Gorean? no, by the Gorean definition would i be a slave? no. Goreans can go on quite a bit whit how they are different from BDSM pepole, and i agree, at least to some extent they are, well since i am into BDSM not Gor, what do it matter if i am submissive or not?

We have fewer catagories. There is no "oh, shes submissive and wants to study us but shes not a slave" catagory. Sorry. If you are a woman.. and owned.. and state that you are submissive you will be treated in certain ways. If you actually *want* to learn about us then stop being offended by it or expect us to curtail our actions to your expectations. There is no reason to do so.

When I go to BDSM places, online and offline, I do not expect them to act differently because I am Gorean. When in Rome.....
When BDSMrs go to Gorean places they should not expect us to act differently just because you might not like it.

If the men offend you so greatly then stop trying to study us. I'm sure you can find something better to do with your time so that you are not constantly offended. After all, what's the point of that?

-nena{R}

(in reply to nephandi)

Post #: 11

RE: Women in general. - 10/7/2005 10:45:37 AM

nephandi

Posts: 3930
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline

Well then, then i guess none of the Goreans here would be ofended if i treat them like any other BDSM pepole, after all you are on a BDSM site.

What you just said simply make no sense nena, one can study Gorean lifestyle and not wish to join it as one can everything else. Also either you acept yourself as the same as D/s pepole in general or you dont, you dont say oh we are not BDSM pepole, but all BDSM submissives we see as slaves, if the argument that you are not part of the BDSM comunity that you are different, somthing that i to belive, is to hold any meaning, you must act it.

(in reply to nenakajira)

Post #: 12

RE: Women in general. - 10/7/2005 10:48:08 AM

JustaTop

Posts: 511
Joined: 10/5/2005
Status: offline

The point I was making is that if you WERE in Gor,there would be actual consequences John. But here, the worst that can happen is what? You get banned from a *chat room* for being an ass?

Really,the only recourse people have to control bad behavior is consensus and censure. Because you can't get away with EVERYTHING they do in the books.

I'll give a for instance of a cultural difference that drives a lot of subs batty when they see it. Kajira will be default ,call any free male "Master". No hoops were jumped through,it is a simple statement of status. Nor does the individual NEED to be respected-it is not seen as the place of slaves to judge the status of individuals.

It's not a matter of "Oh,I LIKE you,so I will give you a title."

And edana makes a very good point about the impact of simple words. They lose shame with the proper conditioning.

And if a Master then calls a girl a slut? It's an affirmation of something desireable-not one of being not so.

< Message edited by JustaTop -- 10/7/2005 10:51:15 AM >

(in reply to JohnWarren)

Post #: 13

RE: Women in general. - 10/7/2005 11:00:59 AM

nephandi

Posts: 3930
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline

For me it is not a word, it is the total lack of respect that is somtimes shown, i dont care if somone call me a slut, other than think it is funny, hum... i have had sex whit one person and flirted whit two i wonder how many you ahve had sex whit...i think, but that do not matter, anyway what i was discussing was more that irony of complaing of a wrong used word but never complaing aboute behavior that go stright againt the books in other ereas.

(in reply to JustaTop)

Post #: 14

RE: Women in general. - 10/7/2005 11:12:01 AM

plantlady64

Posts: 755
Joined: 5/19/2005
Status: offline

Hello All,
I am just on the threshold of finding new dimensions within my life and myself. I have found my Master in February and am his full slave though I don't necessarily consider myself Gorean at the moment. In this process of finding my place I'm learning many avenues. I am someone very curious about the lives of Gorean people as I find a lot of similarities between my way of living and yours.
In this thread I hear of free women. I have not heard this term before. Are free women still submissive to their own Man at home? Do they incorporate the pain and pleasure in their time spent with their mates? How do they behave in society?
These and any other answers that would help me understand their position in the life would be greatly appreciated.

Sincerely,
sub suzanne

(in reply to nenakajira)

Post #: 15

RE: Women in general. - 10/7/2005 11:12:06 AM

nenakajira

Posts: 221
Joined: 7/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: nephandi

Well then, then i guess none of the Goreans here would be ofended if i treat them like any other BDSM pepole, after all you are on a BDSM site.

What you just said simply make no sense nena, one can study Gorean lifestyle and not wish to join it as one can everything else. Also either you acept yourself as the same as D/s pepole in general or you dont, you dont say oh we are not BDSM pepole, but all BDSM submissives we see as slaves, if the argument that you are not part of the BDSM comunity that you are different, somthing that i to belive, is to hold any meaning, you must act it.

Okay, let me try this a different way... though I hate bringing religion in as an example....

I'm jewish. When I used to go to temple I was expected to act and dress a certain way. I had to wear a skirt.. it had to be of a certain length. I had to look nice. I had to be polite and respectful. I had to keep my distance from the "male side of the temple". I had to accept their laws. Some of them, quite honestly, sucked. But.. if I wanted to go to a good temple.. I had to swallow my dislike of some of the laws and act appropriately. If I brought a friend along, even if she was not jewish, she was expected to act the same way. It's a Jewish temple.. end of story. When I visited Christian and Catholic churches out of curiousity, other behaviors were required of me. If I wanted to see what they were doing, if I wanted to study it, I had to behave in appropriate ways. I had to accept that what they were doing was *right* in that place and time. Perhaps it wasn't right for me.. but it's not my religion.. and I could not expect them to change just because I wanted to study them. When one of the priests actually called me "my child" afterwards when I was asking questions.. I could not snap back "Im not your child dammit". That would have been inappropriate.

Now, Goreanism is not a religion. It is, however, a belief system in its own right. When you decide you want to study us on our own turf you cannot expect us to change just because we are being studied. What you want.. or don't want... does not affect us or influence us. It's rather beyond the point, actually.

Another example... out in the street... my Master certainly does not call the mail woman "slut". However, if a submissive woman of any kind entered the house she would be expected to generally follow the rules of the house. If she didn't like that.. she doesn't have to come. By coming into the Gorean chats and the Gorean side of the message board.. in some ways you have entered the "house". You've brought yourself, on purpose, to our side of the fence. You've identified yourself as an owned woman. So, generally, you will be treated like what you say you are. Now, alot of allowances have been made for you.. you're not expected to actually *be* a Gorean slave nor to follow all of our rules.. but to take offense when men act like they would to any other woman.. is silly.

-nena{R}

(in reply to nephandi)

Post #: 16

RE: Women in general. - 10/7/2005 11:12:45 AM

SirSix72

Posts: 347
Joined: 7/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JustaTop

I have little respect for masters who show so little emotional control as to call ANYONE slut. It reeks of insecure posturing,and an inability to behave with restraint.

Im not here to conform to any social restraints that might imply that someone has an emotional boundry of the word slut being used. Again this is an emotional boundary,,maybe some would say this is a limit but never the less it is an emotional boundary.
To see it as insecure is really quite entertaining that this is a case of flipping the script,,topping from the bottom,,,the insecurity is that of the person whom has the problem of being called this.

Master Six

_____________________________

I wish you well

(in reply to JustaTop)

Post #: 17

RE: Women in general. - 10/7/2005 11:23:11 AM

nenakajira

Posts: 221
Joined: 7/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: plantlady64

Hello All,
I am just on the threshold of finding new dimensions within my life and myself. I have found my Master in February and am his full slave though I don't necessarily consider myself Gorean at the moment. In this process of finding my place I'm learning many avenues. I am someone very curious about the lives of Gorean people as I find a lot of similarities between my way of living and yours.
In this thread I hear of free women. I have not heard this term before. Are free women still submissive to their own Man at home? Do they incorporate the pain and pleasure in their time spent with their mates? How do they behave in society?
These and any other answers that would help me understand their position in the life would be greatly appreciated.

Sincerely,
sub suzanne

There are two catagories of women in the Gorean belief structure. Free and slave. A Free woman is.. just that. A woman who is not a slave. As Goreans still use a patriarchail structure Free women are still submissive to some extent. To a slave.. they are the Mistresses of Gor. As they are free.. they are a million steps above us, to say the least.

They are the mates and mothers of Gorean men. They are normally required to be a bit more circumspect than Free men. Their status is not a permanent thing in some ways. If they show slave tendencies they won't be accepted as what they claim to be.

As for relationships with men.... they're mates. Yes, they are still submissive as the man is the head of the household. As for sexual practices? Well, what happens behind closed doors is noones business so I would assume that it varies couple to couple.. but I havent exactly taken a poll to try to find out. I'll probably get beaten sooner or later for trying to take one.

-nena{R}

(in reply to plantlady64)

Post #: 18

RE: Women in general. - 10/7/2005 11:25:29 AM

JustaTop

Posts: 511
Joined: 10/5/2005
Status: offline

I wasn't making a point about the words, just boorish conduct in general. if slut is used as a term of affection in a culture,so be it. But showing blatant disrespect to a category of persons, just because of thier status, tells me that an individual has *issues* with that class.

THAT comes across as posturing,and insecure.

See the difference? If you ARE, why else do you think you have to SHOUT it?

(in reply to SirSix72)

Post #: 19

RE: Women in general. - 10/7/2005 11:32:38 AM

Belladonna82

Posts: 171
Joined: 7/14/2005
Status: offline

Master calls me slut and i do not find it offensive.If you wish to get tech,the vanilla worlds consider many of those who are living in the BDSM/Gorean lifestyles slutty or not as correct as those not living in those lifestyles.Normaly a submissive/slave do tend to act more lol erotic or slutty then the norm. So if it offends try thinking of it as a compliment,they are accepting you into their lifestyle and treating you as they would their own.you learn more being involved then you to standing on the side lines.So smile and learn....or try studing around group.Either way,i hope your time studing will be informative.
Forever in servitude,
bella
Property of SirSix72

_____________________________

Blessed be!

(in reply to nephandi)

Post #: 20

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