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Political differences. - 10/8/2005 11:16:28 PM   
JustaTop


Posts: 511
Joined: 10/5/2005
Status: offline 		I've seen something of a trend, I thought I'd point out.

Most of the Goreans I have interacted with seem to be quite conservative in nature.

You often hear them speak of yearning for old times,when men had more control,and things were more nautural. The preponderance in bdsm scenes seem to be liberal to the point of almost being radical-and the more conservative amoung THEM often tend more towards D/s relationships with structure,rather than merely sexual play ones.

It's almost like watching fundamentalists going round and round in a brawl with hippies.

As anyone else noticed this political difference? Liberal,vs conservative?

And do you think it could be one of the reasons there is so much dissension between the two groups?

< Message edited by JustaTop -- 10/8/2005 11:17:13 PM >
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RE: Political differences. - 10/9/2005 12:40:24 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		Im not really familiar with the US political ins and outs and frankly I'm not that interested unless they impact in the weekkneed Government we have here... However I'm neither liberal or conservative (as I understand them) I'm proudly a Royalist and long for they days or Aristocrats and serfs. Yeah it will nave happen again in my life time but I'm entitled to wish. The problem with the bloody Soviet block was that after WW2, they took over one of the family castle thingies and looted it then demolished it. So much for going to the world court and getting my property back like a few of my Polish friends have done successfully. Even if I could get it all back, there is no damned way the government would give me back the peasants to work the fields... Ohhh yea! Politics suck....

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RE: Political differences. - 10/9/2005 1:18:05 AM   
SirSix72


Posts: 347
Joined: 7/14/2005
Status: offline 		I can say that I understand where you are coming from though.......I can see a liberal explosion but lets look at it this way....a civilization or culture is built upon foundations and structure like is anything in this world is if it is to survive........ im not trying to rob the thread here either.............but if you base a culture on nothing more than mere play and sex then is that foundation and structure going to withstand the test of time or will it crumble.....I try not to base my opinoin on the political difference.....there used to be Mentors among the Old guard and ones that were called the elders....they were the one that developed this...there were traditions that The Old Guard established and these traditions were embraced as the doctrine among the leather folk...now there is a huge explosion of new comers to BDSM that have merely been here for a matter of months....and the mentorship and doctrine has blown out the window........I had two Mentors among my arrival into this lifestyle one a Dominant and the other a slave.....they were old enough to be my parents but I learned a hell of alot from them both...

im off the soapbox now

Master Six

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RE: Political differences. - 10/9/2005 5:16:09 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10836
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		JustaTop, I think I know what you mean, and there must be something to it. But it's more complicated than that. I wasn't a very political person until the Bush regime, and I still wouldn't call myself a leftist. Right now, I'm more of an anti-rightist. I disagree with a lot of standard left-wing positions, and I'm definitely not a hippie.

Also, there are lots of different kinds of Goreans. (You might not get that impression from this forum, but it's true.) Although we've seen several posts longing for the good old days when men did their jobs and women knew their place (and predictably, these have caused a lot of disagreement), you don't have to take any particular political view in order to be Gorean.

So I think there are many reasons for the antagonism, and politics is only one of them. Some BDSMers like to bash Goreans for patterning their lives after a body of fiction, but I don't find that kind of attack very appealing. Many people, consciously or not, pattern themselves after something they've read. If the Gor books offer some people a meaningful ideal, what's wrong with using them as a guide? So I think there is some hypocrisy coming from the BDSM crowd. After all, they read the Story of O and the Marketplace series and God knows what else.

Another standard BDSM criticism you hear is that Gor is all about absurd chatroom-inspired protocols. The perfect example for me is when Lamspeach was kicked out of a Gorean chatroom because she wasn't using the right font. If that were really all that Gor is about, I'd agree with that criticism too, but it's clear that there are Goreans who are not just online creatures. (In fact, I'm pretty sure the Goreans in this forum would be quick to dismiss the online-only Goreans as "fakes.")

The most common criticism of BDSM that I've heard from Goreans is that it's all superficial play, and that the sub is always in control. To tell you the truth, I sympathize with a lot of that sentiment. The munch-and-play-party culture really leaves me cold. I don't go out of my way to bash people who enjoy that, but it's definitely not for me. Where I think these Goreans err is in assuming that this is all BDSM has to offer. In fact, BDSM is one of the most diverse movements you'll see, with all kinds of different people in it. (It's one of the reasons why I'm convinced it's simply inborn: you find people of all races, all socioeconomic backgrounds, and all religions.) Many people who identify with the BDSM life rather than the Gorean life are looking for the same kind of absolute dominant and submissive relationship that Goreans treasure. The only difference is that they don't assume the male has to be the dom and the female has to be the sub--and, of course, they don't use the Gor books as a model.

The last thing I'd like to say about this, although I've said it before, is that I really hadn't seen much antagonism between the BDSM and Gorean populations until this forum. And I've been in the life since I was 20. So maybe the antagonism has as much to do with individual personalities as anything else.

< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 10/9/2005 5:17:30 AM >

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RE: Political differences. - 10/9/2005 5:31:16 AM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Most of the Goreans I have interacted with seem to be quite conservative in nature.


I've known Goreans of every political stripe.

quote:

It's almost like watching fundamentalists going round and round in a brawl with hippies.


Had to laugh at this one. I voted for Reagan. I have long hair and a beard. I'm a fairly staunch environmentalist. I think Rush Limbaugh is brainless finger-puppet, and that Pat Robertson and Gloria Steinem are just about equally evil. Which camp would you put me in?

quote:

And do you think it could be one of the reasons there is so much dissension between the two groups?


No, I think that there are lots of reasons for dissention between the two groups (which are big, toothy, sleeping dogs that are better allowed to lie) but that politics isn't really one of them.

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RE: Political differences. - 10/9/2005 6:21:37 AM   
JustaTop


Posts: 511
Joined: 10/5/2005
Status: offline 		I tend to be a Moderate Leonidas. And believe the best man or woman is the one to do the job-not the best party. Unfortunately, we have seen a massive polarization in both. So it's very hard to really like either party,if one looks at the welfare of the people overall. For niether has a practical outlook that actually works.

LOM makes some good points about a culture based entirely on sex as well. There's very little cohesiveness in such a dynamic,and let's face it-sex gets boring fast,then you could find it extremely easy to find an excuse to bail out,and find someone else to have new thrills with. Which explains the musical chairs thing-where they constantly change partners.

It really is pretty shallow and superficial overall. Which makes me laugh-since this same group now decides to bash Gor?

< Message edited by JustaTop -- 10/9/2005 6:22:09 AM >

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RE: Political differences. - 10/9/2005 9:42:01 AM   
SirSix72


Posts: 347
Joined: 7/14/2005
Status: offline 		I agree with the analogy of the musical chairs type of mentality makes it hard for alot of new comers and old timers to find what they are looking for. But the depth of a persons integrity is what counts the most as far as im concerned. Many ask why I am Gorean I answer the same I find integrity inside of this lifestyle. The ability to be honest with yourself and others around you. Many of us lose the player mentality cause honestly a player either plays or gets played.

Master Six

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RE: Political differences. - 10/9/2005 9:55:03 AM   
JustaTop


Posts: 511
Joined: 10/5/2005
Status: offline 		The average bdsm "relationship" seems to fizzle out at anywhere from 3 to 6 months. A year in that community is seen as quite successful,and two to five years is like,forever, how did you DO that?

I cannot say I have much admiration for that sort of thing. So when I see these people knocking folks like vanillas,or goreans who manage to stabilize thier interactions-it sort of makes you wonder. And I do think it is because they really put hedonism to the forefront-sort of a selfish dynamic where when the thrills stop-you move on without much remorse.

But I guess it is also about the general break down of ethical behavior in a "me society" in general. It just gets concentrated more in a group of people that intensify and attract more of a percentage of dysfunctional personalities to begin with.

< Message edited by JustaTop -- 10/9/2005 10:09:13 AM >

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RE: Political differences. - 10/9/2005 10:29:18 AM   
SirSix72


Posts: 347
Joined: 7/14/2005
Status: offline 		You like I have found the same things over the years that yes people with a certian personality disfunction to have a tendacy to gravitate twords one another................and I have seen many many relationships just fizzle out because of the interest in one another has faded because the relationship was based merely on sex........like so many before me have stated if you base a relationship on just sex how long do you actually think it will last................sex will become mundane after a time of being together................I always try to get to know the person on a level outside of the sexual context..................then we have something other than sex to rely on to stablize our relationship...........ask some of the Doms/Masters about their slave/sub and see if you ask them about the person they own/Dominate..most will simply tell you they can take a spanking very well or they love niple clamps........I would hope t hat there is more to a person that just the ability to have sex or commit to some certian sexual act that makes up the very fiber of the being.........the emotional and physical well being of any slave/submissive depends on more than the sexual gravitation of the person there is a life outside of the bedroom........take for instance my slave bella............I made bella go back to school to further her education and become something better than she was before..........anyways im off the soapbox again

Master Six

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I wish you well

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RE: Political differences. - 10/9/2005 10:37:05 AM   
JustaTop


Posts: 511
Joined: 10/5/2005
Status: offline 		I look at personalities before kinks now-even if kinks align,it's no guarantee you will have anything else to do once the lust wears off. Ideally, you want someone who will stay with you and work towards common goals. That's a lot more fun and fullfilling overall,than just making the beast with two backs.

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RE: Political differences. - 10/10/2005 2:49:34 PM   
luvdragonx


Posts: 388
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JustaTop

The average bdsm "relationship" seems to fizzle out at anywhere from 3 to 6 months. A year in that community is seen as quite successful,and two to five years is like,forever, how did you DO that?

I cannot say I have much admiration for that sort of thing. So when I see these people knocking folks like vanillas,or goreans who manage to stabilize thier interactions-it sort of makes you wonder. And I do think it is because they really put hedonism to the forefront-sort of a selfish dynamic where when the thrills stop-you move on without much remorse.

But I guess it is also about the general break down of ethical behavior in a "me society" in general. It just gets concentrated more in a group of people that intensify and attract more of a percentage of dysfunctional personalities to begin with.


Ok, I gotta ask: Does every single Gorean relationship work out perfectly the first time? How about 'vanilla'? Personally, I've observed more committed relationships involving BDSM than I have non-BDSM folks.

That microwave, instant gratification characteristic is specific to one group only - people. There are folks like that everywhere, regardless of what they call themselves or what group they associate with. Another question: how old are the people in these 'quickie relationships'? How old are the people in the longterm relationships? How much introspection and thought have they done before entering into a relationship with another person? (By the way that's not specific to Gor, it's called maturity).

Your generalization of the BDSM community reminds me of similar generalized assumptions people have made about me.

For example, people assume I ride horses and live in the country just because I'm a Texan - I live in the suburbs and drive a car, been on a horse twice.

People assume that I know how to braid hair and know all the Rap/R&B artists just because I'm black - I can't braid and I prefer alternative, hindi and new age.

And people assume that because I identify as a BDSMer, I am dysfunctional, only in it for the sex and have no concept of commitment and honor.

Sometimes people assume incorrectly.



< Message edited by luvdragonx -- 10/10/2005 2:50:50 PM >

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RE: Political differences. - 10/10/2005 2:56:37 PM   
JustaTop


Posts: 511
Joined: 10/5/2005
Status: offline 		I stand corrected on the generalizations. (I should know better by now,and it's IS probably due more to immaturity overall,then mere lifestyle choices.)

Outisde of that,what do you have to venture on the political differences you see between the groupings?

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RE: Political differences. - 10/10/2005 3:07:44 PM   
luvdragonx


Posts: 388
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline
quote:

I stand corrected on the generalizations. (I should know better by now,and it's IS probably due more to immaturity overall,then mere lifestyle choices.)




I think that's it, honestly. It takes a certain level of maturity to read the books, interpret what is written and apply it to life. You just can't live as a Gorean when you aren't grown up enough to handle it. Not to say that one who doesn't choose Gor isn't mature, but immaturity and a strict code don't work well together. BDSM with it's many facets is highly adaptable to almost anyone. Being Gorean isn't.

quote:


Outisde of that,what do you have to venture on the political differences you see between the groupings?


Honestly, I can't really pinpoint a particular political orientation of any group. Actually what I've noticed is that most people who participate in an 'alternative lifestyle' don't subcribe to any one set of political beliefs. Right and Left are supposedly in opposition, but neither adequately address or uphold the desire for personal freedom that most alternative lifestylers seek.

< Message edited by luvdragonx -- 10/10/2005 3:17:28 PM >

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RE: Political differences. - 10/10/2005 3:17:03 PM   
JustaTop


Posts: 511
Joined: 10/5/2005
Status: offline 		Hmm,interesting....many I have spoken with seem to think M/s people are more conservative,another urban legend,perhaps? Maybe it's more that I have yet to meet one who was as flamingly LIBERAL as many people I met out in the scene.

The squeaky wheels DO tend to get the grease!

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RE: Political differences. - 10/10/2005 3:22:29 PM   
luvdragonx


Posts: 388
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JustaTop

Hmm,interesting....many I have spoken with seem to think M/s people are more conservative,another urban legend,perhaps? Maybe it's more that I have yet to meet one who was as flamingly LIBERAL as many people I met out in the scene.

The squeaky wheels DO tend to get the grease!


Urban legend....hmm, maybe. Could it be that M/s folks more closely identify with the conservative ideal of hierarchy?

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RE: Political differences. - 10/10/2005 5:23:12 PM   
JustaTop


Posts: 511
Joined: 10/5/2005
Status: offline 		I think it may well boil down to a difference of prefference between freeform and structure,yes. (and it took me a while to get past my former fetish for tight structure-you can see I still suffer from it a bit-not to say that I prefer chaos any more than the latter..Somehow,moderation doesn't seem to work well in this-very confusing.)

But you know,many forms of conservatism (and fundamentalism) are linked inextricably to a pretty rigid overall philosophy. (rulesets) And rulesets seem to spawn some pretty intense structure junkies. Appearances mean nothing, in this regard. You look at the degrees of control they want to excersise on those close to them.

Thier attitudes towards those who do NOT use rulesets and structure (seldom positive,the way muslims despise "decadent westerners") and fundamentalism is almost NEVER linked to a liberal attitude. So I am still of the opinion that M/s practicioners fall more to the right overall,than the left.

Poeple can say whatever they wish,thier behaviors are always the telling part.

(By thier deeds,you shall know them)

< Message edited by JustaTop -- 10/10/2005 7:28:37 PM >

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RE: Political differences. - 10/15/2005 8:37:46 AM   
Manawyddan


Posts: 696
Joined: 1/2/2005
From: Petaluma (Northern California)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JustaTop
But I guess it is also about the general break down of ethical behavior in a "me society" in general. It just gets concentrated more in a group of people that intensify and attract more of a percentage of dysfunctional personalities to begin with.


[ flameproofing on] Funny, that's about exactly how I feel about the current administration, except their unethical behavior is directed towards money, power, and restricting the free expression of other people, instead of something innocuous like having sex. [ /flameproofing off]


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RE: Political differences. - 10/15/2005 9:23:04 AM   
Nosathro


Posts: 1476
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: online 		Tal I find Politics rather boring. The Two Major Groups are for me are the sides of the same coin. I do wish for years past, not because Men ruled but Honor was regarded more valuable than life. Something missing today.

I Wish You Well

Nosathro

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RE: Political differences. - 10/19/2005 9:10:35 AM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline 		I would venture a guess that at least 1 of the Clintons is a switch

Be well,
Thadius

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