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"I read it on the internet..." - 4/14/2008 3:39:04 PM

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I think we've all heard the saying "I read it on the internet - it must be true" at some time or another. I read the following sentiments posted in the "Not age but gender" thread and it brought a question or two to mind. In an attempt not to hijack I'll pose them here. These were the comments (the underlining is my own). They were posted by a third party in that thread but that is irrelevant:

"In S/m play you literally are placing your life in your Dom/Domme's hands. You have to trust that they know what they are doing.

Would you trust someone to wrap their hands around your throat and cover your mouth and nose if they were totally inexperienced at breath play?

Would you let somebody who had only read about it on the Internet pierce your body with needles, or do labia or scrotum injections?

Would you let a novice cover your back in alcohol and set fire to you without them being properly trained on fire play?

These are all easy examples. All but the dumbest of submissives would see the dangers and say no."

Dominants, what are your thoughts? In your opinion is it possible for someone to read and research an activity online and gain sufficient insight into same to be able to attempt it in real time safely and successfully or is that simply not possible? Must every bdsm skill only come by way of having been taught by someone else who already has accomplished that skill in real time? Or perhaps are there some things you can pick up on your own and others that no amount of self studying will suffice?

To the submissives... would you or do you consent to activities when the dominant admits to not having any real time experience at such? Is it a litmus test of sorts for you?

RE: "I read it on the internet..." - 4/14/2008 3:45:16 PM

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As a Domme, I have done a lot of research through books, the internet, conversations with experts in various aspects, and Yes - for me I can learn that way and play safely. When I first started real life sessions - after intensive research and having interviewed both tops and bottoms - my subs never knew that I had not done these things to another person before.

I proceeded safely, testing out toys on myself first, training until I felt very professional using them. I was not cavalier about it but felt that I had taught myself the skills well enough for another human being to entrust their body to me.

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RE: "I read it on the internet..." - 4/14/2008 3:53:12 PM

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Totally depends on the person and the relationship, the trust and all that jazz. If it was a total newbie who hardly knew of course not, im not an idiot. If its a Dom that I am with, that knows me and that discusses it with me and i trust yeah, everyone starts somewhere. I personally woudlnt want a total novice in all of it, but say that the Dominant was fairly comfy in many activities and wanted to try needle play, was sensible enough to go slowly and communicate then sure. Breath play is differant totally to me dont really need to be an expert in anything except your partners reactions and stuff, I know that it has an awful lot of risks, but those risks are there no matter the level of experiance, fire play I wouldnt even do with an expert.

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RE: "I read it on the internet..." - 4/14/2008 3:58:45 PM

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I've read a lot about fire play and I think I know enough to mitigate the risks. Not that I would do it of course. But a couple of nonplastic qtips dipped into rubbing alcohol and run down a person's back prior to lighting one of those qtips and touching it to the alcohol path when the person is on a hard surface and with a wet towel or three right there seems pretty straight forward to me. I'd let him do it even though he's never taken a class. Hair braided and out of the way of course.

Needles? No, because although I've read posts detailing it, I still don't understand guages and such. And if I don't understand it, I can't give consent to it.

Saline injections? No freaking way, even if he took a class. A nurse or doctor or EMT seems safer.

Suspension from online? I know he's capable of reading and understanding the info out there just as I know I'm not. The difference from this and needles is that his training is as an engineer so stresses are not new concepts to him. But medical play is something neither of us have any base knowledge of that just needs some specifics to make safe.

As I said in HerLord's post, we did wax play after reading a thread or four filled with safety info online. Worked great for us.

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RE: "I read it on the internet..." - 4/14/2008 4:40:20 PM

SNoB

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Theres a huge fucking difference between "I read about this on the internet" and "I spent a lot of time researching this on the internet".

Reading about it, is NOT enough, you need to research it. Not all activities that people do in this lifestyle require the same amount of practice, research, knowledge, or safety, everything is different.

Also, a lot of people are visual learners, they pick up concepts a lot better when they see them in person. Some people have a excellent grasp of something after they read about it, they can visualize it in their head. I say the best rule of thumb for "edge play" (fire play, needles, cutting, suspension) is you need to learn it in real time, from someone that has done it, knows the safety issues, and can pass down advice from their own experiences.

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RE: "I read it on the internet..." - 4/14/2008 6:26:54 PM

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No, i probibly wouldn't. My ex wanted to play with needles, but had no experience. We found a Domme whom i trusted who had been doing needles for a few years. We got together and she showed my Mistress the basics and then we played. It turned out to be one of my favorite things to do and hers also. While i think there are many things you can learn online, there are some things i feel you just have to learn live.

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RE: "I read it on the internet..." - 4/14/2008 6:27:57 PM

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I have an amazing friend, who I'll call Cam here. Cam rocks, he's my absolute best friend, and we have a kinky, offbeat relationship that somehow has avoided involving sex. Whenever I discover something interesting that I'd like to try out, Cam's the first one I go to. Does he have his "I R Real Master" degree? Nope, I introduced him to bdsm. His first Knifeplay experience was me handing him a switchblade, and a twenty second explanation.

Wax play was pretty much the same thing, although he has an amazing amount of common sense, and poked around online until he found some low temperature candles. Incidentally, his cat was also accidentally introduced to wax play that night, and did not approve.

I hate sterility in a relationship like mine. Safety? Of course, but I trust that my partner isn't a raging idiot when it comes to setting me on fire, and has taken appropriate measures to insure that nothing catches on fire.. for too long. We are also a huge fan of breath play, although he's never done extended research on the internet, and has never felt the need to go to a class on how to choke someone. -.- Both of us are very aware of how I'm feeling at the moment, and both of us will call a time out if something feels off.

Classes? Sure, why not, for something like suspensions and intricate ropework stuff, it's an art in my opinion- I love the work that David Lawrence does. If you "really" feel that you don't know enough to realize that fire is hot, and will burn you, go ahead and attend a class on that too, but I figured that out when I played with candles and things as a kid.

As far as the internet goes, it's not uncommon for one or the other to find a picture online somewhere, and email it to each other saying something like, "Wanna try?"

You don't need extensive training to do half of the stuff involved in BDSM. What you need is common sense.

< Message edited by Lynnxz -- 4/14/2008 6:29:45 PM >

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RE: "I read it on the internet..." - 4/14/2008 6:53:55 PM

Vigilantejustice

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Evility

Dominants, what are your thoughts? In your opinion is it possible for someone to read and research an activity online and gain sufficient insight into same to be able to attempt it in real time safely and successfully or is that simply not possible? Must every bdsm skill only come by way of having been taught by someone else who already has accomplished that skill in real time? Or perhaps are there some things you can pick up on your own and others that no amount of self studying will suffice?

To the submissives... would you or do you consent to activities when the dominant admits to not having any real time experience at such? Is it a litmus test of sorts for you?

I'd say not *every* skill needs to be learned at the hands of a mentor, but much of what is considered "edge play" _I_ feel should be seen and experienced (even if only vicariously, such as serving as a second for someone more knowledgeable) before trying it out yourself.

Yes, there are some great books out there that teach all sorts of fun things, and great websites too. However, there's nothing quite like the visceral experience for learning.

Of course, I am pretty spoiled, being near Austin TX. There's a group called SAADE (School for Advanced American Dominant Education) that has monthly classes, as well as an annual mentoring program, so there is generally an opportunity to learn anything a person wants.

Just my two cents,
Corinne
(Big fan of empirical knowledge and experiential learning.)

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RE: "I read it on the internet..." - 4/14/2008 7:06:39 PM

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It’s kind of like talking about the weather. It’s there and you make the best of it. I mean the internet is everywhere and everything. It’s good, bad, pretty and ugly. It’s like asking would you try anything someone told you about on the phone or that you read in a book. It depends on the person who said or typed it, the task and you.

The internet is many faceted. You can read articles, see videos, go back and forth on message boards, attend online classes, webcam or instant message.

Your question of whether you would do something is a generalization of sorts where, most certainly, some people would do even the examples you gave while others wouldn’t.

< Message edited by ExSteelAgain -- 4/14/2008 7:08:21 PM >

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RE: "I read it on the internet..." - 4/14/2008 7:18:11 PM

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Last month I was at a lunch with Jay Wiseman

He expressed an opinion that many people who conduct seminars really do not know what they are doing and then gave some obvious examples of same.

My point is that if you are going to engage in edgeplay, research is very important...including researching enough of the topic that if you attend a demo you can ask questions...some people are not always aware of their own limitations in understanding or presenting material...and to me..it is better to be over-prepared than under.

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RE: "I read it on the internet..." - 4/14/2008 7:27:27 PM

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Ummm.... I would rather Learn how to give Anal Sex on my own. I am pretty sure that I never had any practice before I did it the first time and I knew enough not to treat her ass the same way I treated her pussy.

I look at needle play as one of those Better safe than sorry Ideas and I have PLENTY of small scars from where I played too long with one needle and it got dull so I know what to look for in a sharp needle.

I like Acupuncture needles and I spend nearly a full year going over every Anatomy / Acupuncture Book I could finds and my Library found some Illustrated Accupuncture Training Manuals written in Mandrin and the Pictures has a Green Check Mark or a Red Ex and that book that I couldn't physically read was the BEST resource I ever had.

So No one formally TRAINED me to use needles because there was no one in my circle who would have had the EXPERINECE to TRAIN someone effectivly so I took to learning myself.

In answer to the Quote in the OP... I think I would let someone pierce me who had Pierced themselves several times but not someone who had the book in front of them going "Okay the book says this should hurt for a second then be fine ..... why is it bleeding .... The Book didn't say it was gunna bleed."

You see this whole Scare Tactic Theater is the idea is to promote a false sence of security.

There was a Master in Alabama who had been doing single tail play for TWO DECADES. Never had so much as an incident when it came to severity of accident, then on day and no one really knows what really happened somehow the fall came too close and the girl has a 9 inch scar acoss her face just above her left eye all the way down to her right cheek and lost her left eye it is now glass.

No matter HOW experinced you are. Accidents happen and PEOPLE make mistakes.

Experience only means you have learned from the mistakes. If you have never made any or profess to have never made any then that makes you the bastard that scares the living shit outta me.

I think a slave should take the guy that broke a rib once three years ago over the guy with 10 years and not a single accident. Why? Because the first guy knows the dangers and the other guy may think he is bullet proof.

Just my Two Cents in a Sea of Pocket Change

Steel

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RE: "I read it on the internet..." - 4/14/2008 7:28:24 PM

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Nope.

I had a bottom I was playing with who was hot to do needles. I didn't know how to do needles. I thought the people locally that I knew did needles were not an option to learn. I felt they were assholes-they had skill but I had no respect for them beyond that. So I wandered down to choice medical up in capitol hill. I bought a box of 20 gage 1.5 sharps.

I tokk them home, and stuck a bunch of them under my skin.. I used techniques I had watched the assholes doing at the club.

I'm not a masochist, it didn't make me fly. But when I was done I knew how to basically do needles. I knew what damage they did, and what not to do. I didn't place anyone else at risk learning.

I also know the experience would be different for someone wired differently than me. I did needles with the bottom after that. She liked it. She gave me feedback and I practiced getting better at it. No one got an infection, and no one got scarred.

But we did have fun.

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RE: "I read it on the internet..." - 4/14/2008 7:35:27 PM

SNoB

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist

Nope.

I had a bottom I was playing with who was hot to do needles. I didn't know how to do needles. I thought the people locally that I knew did needles were not an option to learn. I felt they were assholes-they had skill but I had no respect for them beyond that. So I wandered down to choice medical up in capitol hill. I bought a box of 20 gage 1.5 sharps.

I tokk them home, and stuck a bunch of them under my skin.. I used techniques I had watched the assholes doing at the club.

I'm not a masochist, it didn't make me fly. But when I was done I knew how to basically do needles. I knew what damage they did, and what not to do. I didn't place anyone else at risk learning.

I also know the experience would be different for someone wired differently than me. I did needles with the bottom after that. She liked it. She gave me feedback and I practiced getting better at it. No one got an infection, and no one got scarred.

But we did have fun.

But like you said, you used methods you had seen in real life first hand, not shit you saw on the internet.

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RE: "I read it on the internet..." - 4/14/2008 7:48:02 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SNoB

But like you said, you used methods you had seen in real life first hand, not shit you saw on the internet.

It sounds from the tone of his post, that it was kind of a peeking over the shoulder kind of thing, like what I end up doing at clubs. You could probably learn just as well from some youtube movies, but I like the approach he used of doing it on himself first. ^_^

I've had a couple people approach me and ask if they could use their brand new singletail on me before...fail.. I like my skin on, thanks.

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RE: "I read it on the internet..." - 4/14/2008 7:49:36 PM

SNoB

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lynnxz

quote:

ORIGINAL: SNoB

But like you said, you used methods you had seen in real life first hand, not shit you saw on the internet.

It sounds from the tone of his post, that it was kind of a peeking over the shoulder kind of thing, like what I end up doing at clubs. You could probably learn just as well from some youtube movies, but I like the approach he used of doing it on himself first. ^_^

I've had a couple people approach me and ask if they could use their brand new singletail on me before...fail.. I like my skin on, thanks.

I know, Ive done that many times too at parties, you can learn a lot. My point is, seeing it done in real life, in a class or just at a party, is not the same as reading about it on the internet.

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RE: "I read it on the internet..." - 4/14/2008 7:55:46 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SNoB

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist

Nope.

I had a bottom I was playing with who was hot to do needles. I didn't know how to do needles. I thought the people locally that I knew did needles were not an option to learn. I felt they were assholes-they had skill but I had no respect for them beyond that. So I wandered down to choice medical up in capitol hill. I bought a box of 20 gage 1.5 sharps.

I tokk them home, and stuck a bunch of them under my skin.. I used techniques I had watched the assholes doing at the club.

I'm not a masochist, it didn't make me fly. But when I was done I knew how to basically do needles. I knew what damage they did, and what not to do. I didn't place anyone else at risk learning.

I also know the experience would be different for someone wired differently than me. I did needles with the bottom after that. She liked it. She gave me feedback and I practiced getting better at it. No one got an infection, and no one got scarred.

But we did have fun.

But like you said, you used methods you had seen in real life first hand, not shit you saw on the internet.

I dunno, I never saw anyone fisting at a club. I only read about the methods. On the internet. Then along came another hot bottom, and she wanted to try it. Took a few tries, but we figured it out.

We were also relatively experienced in other things, and intelligent. That's what makes the difference. But we didn't NEED outsiders to teach us all of this shit. The same way I don't need "mentors" in most things..I just try them in ways that won't damage a person before I have practice in the technique.

Hell I learned flogging by building my own floggers and beating the crap out of the furniture-it's not rocket science dude.

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RE: "I read it on the internet..." - 4/14/2008 8:03:14 PM

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Generally speaking, I don't do anything to a bottom I haven't either had done on me or done to myself. I'm of the opinion that I have to know how it feels on me first. Not that everyone has the same pain threshold I do or feels things in the same way as I, but I need somewhere to start. The only thing I've ever done to someone else that I could not try out on myself first though, was CBT...(for obvious reasons) and for that, I watched someone do it and I read a lot before I did it on a bottom...who loved it, btw - as did I. But floggers, paddles, wax, whatever...anything I do to somebody, even as benign as a little sensation play, I try it out on myself first and I make sure I have a basic understanding of what I'm doing, technique wise and I make sure I have a basic understanding of how what I'm doing might be affecting the bottom's body. After that, it's practice, experience and a bit of creativity doesn't hurt - well... But when I was bottoming, I also read up on techniques and safety. I didn't leave it all to the top, because I've just heard too many horror stories and common sense kicks in after a while, hopefully.

That having been said, I do think there's a lot of good information that can be found on the internet, but I would advise that you never go on just one source. Read several articles in your area of interest. If there's a book, try to get it and if you can attend a demo, preferably a hands-on, do that. If you have someone you can ask questions of or even to mentor you in a skill, do that. Never assume you have all the information when you are just starting out...you don't.

Jay Wiseman is correct when he says that some folks out there giving demos are lacking in knowledge. A very experienced friend of mine in the life has said the same thing, pointing to several examples of demos she has witnessed. And there was a whole big to-do here in NYC several months ago following an edge play demo which many people thought demonstrated some dangerous technique... it happens. So people have to educate themselves, don't take presenters as some sort of gods or goddesses who have all the answers. Watch them closely and ask lots of questions and for pete's sake, don't mimic them if you feel their technique is not safe. And if you know they are unsafe, you might want to mention what you know (but be sure of your facts, first) to the event organizer(s).

Be safe and have fun,

MNN

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RE: "I read it on the internet..." - 4/14/2008 8:05:10 PM

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I just seem to be the bitch of the boards these days with My opinions.

To answer the OP, I would have to say no, at least not in My case. I've just always been a hands on kind of person. I could never learn skill picked up from words on a screen. Sure, I've done some learning and background research on various topics from reading, but nothing was ever like picking a flogger up for Myself for the first time. It's been like that with a lot of different forms of play. I could never get the same thing out of them as doing things for Myself. I do much better with learning in person and practice than any other method.

Of course, not everyone is like Me. Some people learn just fine by the written word alone. I just don't happen to be one of them, and I wouldn't feel very adept in anything that I didn't have some form of real life practice in.

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RE: "I read it on the internet..." - 4/14/2008 8:18:41 PM

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I can’t see a Master/Dom/Domme with a “Extreme Medical Play for Dummies” book in one hand while they practice surgical incisions and sutures, sleeping gas rape with Trilene gas, medical sounds & dilators, nitrous oxide (laughing gas) enhanced orgasms, exam table bondage and torture "play" included things like ultrasound insertion pictures… perhaps a little real life experience, coaching or mentorship would be in order first?

Another title that would scare me if I was a bottom would be “Asphyxiation and Bloodsports for Dummies”.

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RE: "I read it on the internet..." - 4/14/2008 8:27:07 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

I can’t see a Master/Dom/Domme with a “Extreme Medical Play for Dummies” book in one hand while they practice surgical incisions and sutures, sleeping gas rape with Trilene gas, medical sounds & dilators, nitrous oxide (laughing gas) enhanced orgasms, exam table bondage and torture "play" included things like ultrasound insertion pictures… perhaps a little real life experience, coaching or mentorship would be in order first?

Eeep! How about a little med school first.... then again, I'm scared of medical play in general.

(in reply to ResidentSadist)

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