RE: A slave's best interests

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RE: A slave's best interests

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RE: A slave's best interests - 4/18/2008 3:44:04 AM

sunshinemiss

Posts: 16506
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Malkinius

Failure is not permanent unless the person who fails never tries again. Most great and successful people have failed and tried and tried again until they did succeed.

Be well all.....

Malkinius

Greetings Master Malkinius,

This is a great quote. Thank you for it.

peace,
sunshine

_____________________________

¿me preguntas por que compro arroz y flores? compro arroz para vivir y flores para tener algo por lo que vivir.
~Confucio

Yes, I am a wonton hussy.

Head Hib Harem Hottie

(in reply to Malkinius)

Post #: 41

RE: A slave's best interests - 4/18/2008 5:15:32 AM

BeingChewsie

Posts: 1633
Joined: 10/27/2005
Status: offline

I agree they are not slaves, that is his failure though, women do not enslave themselves nor hold themselvs in slavery. If a man isn't powerful enough to keep me and powerful enough to make sure I obey him, I wouldn't feel the least bit bad about walking out the door. I'm not a volunteer, he can either make me his slave or he can't. If he can't, no hurt, no foul, better to find that out early on.

quote:

I know from personal experience, that when a slave (supposed slave, that is) refuses to obey and challenges every command, every descision and choice an Owner makes, and blatently disrespects this institution they willingly chose to take on. it is the failure then of the slave. I hate to even call them slave, because clearly they are not.
Indeed it is also true to say a Master/Owner, needs to get to know this person whom they are going to grant a collar to, but in a lot of cases, these supposed slaves are great liars and put on a very convincing persona and true colors do not begin to show, untill such a time, said slave, realizes, things arent all skittles and beer.

Maahsatti

_____________________________

"In fact, it is my contention that most women are accepting of way less than optimal circumstance constantly, and are lucky to be 'snagged' by the right man, if ever. But it is more by happy accident than by their design. "
~Ron and Hup

(in reply to Maahsatti)

Post #: 42

RE: A slave's best interests - 4/18/2008 5:18:13 AM

Aswad

Posts: 6908
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

So much more succinct than what I said.

Thanks, Chewsie.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to BeingChewsie)

Post #: 43

RE: A slave's best interests - 4/18/2008 8:33:20 AM

MarcusofAr

Posts: 532
Joined: 3/12/2008
Status: offline

Tal, Malkinius.

Having read the replies to this thread, it is my belief that the entire concept of "slave failure" will always be a divisive issue for the same reason that discussions involving the word "slave" will always be difficult between those who do not share the same definitions of that word (as recently seen on this board, in other threads).

"Slavery" can be both an imposed or self-accepted status, or it can refer to a relationship.

Depending upon which aspect is being discussed, the answers to questions about it, and matters of responsibility, will differ.

The ultimate denominator is perhaps this: everyone is responsible, to some extent, for their own behavior, their own personal interaction, and their own happiness. No matter their status or relationships.

Which is also, perhaps not uncoincidentally, one of the main themes of Gorean Philosophy-- personal responsibility.

External influences and circumstances always have much to do with it.

Or, to paraphrase the excellent comment of another poster to this thread:

People do not exist in a vacuum; neither do they succeed in a vacuum; nor do they fail in one.

I wish you well,

_Marcus_

(in reply to Malkinius)

Post #: 44

RE: A slave's best interests - 4/18/2008 9:52:20 AM

Anarrus

Posts: 475
Joined: 11/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie

I agree they are not slaves, that is his failure though, women do not enslave themselves nor hold themselvs in slavery. If a man isn't powerful enough to keep me and powerful enough to make sure I obey him, I wouldn't feel the least bit bad about walking out the door. I'm not a volunteer, he can either make me his slave or he can't. If he can't, no hurt, no foul, better to find that out early on.

Agreed in theory, but many men don't want a slave they are in constant struggle with, nor have to beat the fuck out of every other day to keep her in slavery. Not unless they are either a psychological masochist in the former or a sadist in the later. At least this one doesn't. I have better ways to spend my time and energy and the struggle dynamic gets old pretty quickly. I'll show my slave the door quickly if she expects that.

be well

Anarrus

< Message edited by Anarrus -- 4/18/2008 9:56:19 AM >

_____________________________

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free."...Goethe
"Send lawyers, guns and money" ..Warren Zevon

(in reply to BeingChewsie)

Post #: 45

RE: A slave's best interests - 4/18/2008 10:02:50 AM

MistressScarlot

Posts: 46
Joined: 12/7/2006
Status: offline

My two cents:

I wouldn't have a lot of respect for a Dominant who was ...so short sighted.
I myself have a different idea of training...I see it as training a whole person...and so the more actualized that person is, the better they will also be able to serve /me/, as well as have more to offer. If a slave's best attributes are manifested through education, that slave will then be a greater asset to their household. It's an investment...but so is training! Learning to balance education and slave duties is a skill that is also worth cultivating, and any Owner worth their salt would see that.

In the end, that Dominant would not even be serving their own best interests over their slave's...unless the
Dominant is only focused on short term, instant type gratification. I believe respect is earned, and this kind of...thinking...would definitely negatively impact my respect for that Dominant.

(in reply to xoxi)

Post #: 46

RE: A slave's best interests - 4/18/2008 10:04:27 AM

amelliagrace

Posts: 1792
Joined: 8/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anarrus

quote:

ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie

I agree they are not slaves, that is his failure though, women do not enslave themselves nor hold themselvs in slavery. If a man isn't powerful enough to keep me and powerful enough to make sure I obey him, I wouldn't feel the least bit bad about walking out the door. I'm not a volunteer, he can either make me his slave or he can't. If he can't, no hurt, no foul, better to find that out early on.

Agreed in theory, but many men don't want a slave they are in constant struggle with, nor have to beat the fuck out of every other day to keep her in slavery. Not unless they are either a psychological masochist in the former or a sadist in the later. At least this one doesn't. I have better ways to spend my time and energy and the struggle dynamic gets old pretty quickly. I'll show my slave the door quickly if she expects that.

be well

Anarrus

Great power is not necessarily expressed in brute strength or violent force. Somehow, I don't think chewsie was implying that R beats the living daylights out of her every other day, and keeps her chained in the basement, in order to hold her.

Frankly, I've seen many men who want a very submissive female they can call a slave, one who will largely hold herself in role, for various reasons...not a woman who is a slave actually, and actively, mastered.

Grace

(in reply to Anarrus)

Post #: 47

RE: A slave's best interests - 4/18/2008 10:17:54 AM

Anarrus

Posts: 475
Joined: 11/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: amelliagrace

Great power is not necessarily expressed in brute strength or violent force. Somehow, I don't think chewsie was implying that R beats the living daylights out of her every other day, and keeps her chained in the basement, in order to hold her.

Frankly, I've seen many men who want a very submissive female they can call a slave, one who will largely hold herself in role, for various reasons...not a woman who is a slave actually, and actively, mastered.

Grace

Grace,

You're correct and I wasn't implying that brute strength or violence is any great power. In fact to me it says just the opposite when that's the only resort. There's a dynamic in place between master and slave that if there and strong needs little brute force nor causes much struggle and agnst. That's the ideal. But if it's not there then perhaps the relationship was wrong to begin with, unless of course brutality and struggle were sought.

be well

Anarrus

_____________________________

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free."...Goethe
"Send lawyers, guns and money" ..Warren Zevon

(in reply to amelliagrace)

Post #: 48

RE: A slave's best interests - 4/18/2008 10:38:15 AM

Stephann

Posts: 4212
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Los Angeles, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie

I agree they are not slaves, that is his failure though, women do not enslave themselves nor hold themselvs in slavery. If a man isn't powerful enough to keep me and powerful enough to make sure I obey him, I wouldn't feel the least bit bad about walking out the door. I'm not a volunteer, he can either make me his slave or he can't. If he can't, no hurt, no foul, better to find that out early on.

II'll borrow some of Aswad's applause. Perfect.

Stephan

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to BeingChewsie)

Post #: 49

RE: A slave's best interests - 4/18/2008 10:47:59 AM

amelliagrace

Posts: 1792
Joined: 8/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anarrus

quote:

ORIGINAL: amelliagrace

Great power is not necessarily expressed in brute strength or violent force. Somehow, I don't think chewsie was implying that R beats the living daylights out of her every other day, and keeps her chained in the basement, in order to hold her.

Frankly, I've seen many men who want a very submissive female they can call a slave, one who will largely hold herself in role, for various reasons...not a woman who is a slave actually, and actively, mastered.

Grace

Grace,

You're correct and I wasn't implying that brute strength or violence is any great power. In fact to me it says just the opposite when that's the only resort. There's a dynamic in place between master and slave that if there and strong needs little brute force nor causes much struggle and agnst. That's the ideal. But if it's not there then perhaps the relationship was wrong to begin with, unless of course brutality and struggle were sought.

be well

Anarrus

Well put, and thanks.

Grace

(in reply to Anarrus)

Post #: 50

RE: A slave's best interests - 4/18/2008 12:06:55 PM

BeingChewsie

Posts: 1633
Joined: 10/27/2005
Status: offline

Hi Anarrus,

I agree with you, the thing to do if you can't handle the girl is to put her out. Let her find someone who can and you find someone more suited to your personality. Life is to short for people to be "faking" it in their most intimate relationships. It is really no different then peoples choices in breed of dog some people love golden retrievers, some people rotweillers, some people poodles....whatever is best suited to your needs and personality.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anarrus

quote:

ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie

I agree they are not slaves, that is his failure though, women do not enslave themselves nor hold themselvs in slavery. If a man isn't powerful enough to keep me and powerful enough to make sure I obey him, I wouldn't feel the least bit bad about walking out the door. I'm not a volunteer, he can either make me his slave or he can't. If he can't, no hurt, no foul, better to find that out early on.

Agreed in theory, but many men don't want a slave they are in constant struggle with, nor have to beat the fuck out of every other day to keep her in slavery. Not unless they are either a psychological masochist in the former or a sadist in the later. At least this one doesn't. I have better ways to spend my time and energy and the struggle dynamic gets old pretty quickly. I'll show my slave the door quickly if she expects that.

be well

Anarrus

_____________________________

"In fact, it is my contention that most women are accepting of way less than optimal circumstance constantly, and are lucky to be 'snagged' by the right man, if ever. But it is more by happy accident than by their design. "
~Ron and Hup

(in reply to Anarrus)

Post #: 51

RE: A slave's best interests - 4/19/2008 3:24:17 AM

Ars

Posts: 37
Joined: 3/19/2008
Status: offline

Greetings xoxi.

Nice to see you again. I am nephandi. Now to your question. In my experience most Gorean men would consider the best intrests of his property, very few are in any way cruel, and most want their property value to them to rise, as it would whit her getting an education. But a Gorean man is no more obligated to let his slave have that education as I am to let my cat roam outside. A slave is property, as such the owner will do as he pleases. Also very often, a owner will act in a slave's best intrests even if the slave do not know it.

I wish you well

(in reply to xoxi)

Post #: 52

RE: A slave's best interests - 4/19/2008 3:31:42 AM

Maahsatti

Posts: 2579
Joined: 8/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

that is his failure though, women do not enslave themselves nor hold themselvs in slavery.

Well, in a world where legalized slavery is not allowed, that arguemtn might hold more water.
There are lots of players out there, thinking they are gonna get a free ride or live a fantasy life of being coddled and cared for.
This is the crux of my arguement.
FM does not equate to mind reader, and why I also stated, that men who are looking to enslave a woman, really needs to do their best to get to know the girl and her intentions. However, when up against a liar, who is good at deception, that may not always be obvious till, too late.

Maahsatti
PS and in a world where slavery is consensual only. there absolutely is a degree of a woman holding herself in slavery. otherwise there would be no choice for her to leave, even if the relationship became abusive.

< Message edited by Maahsatti -- 4/19/2008 3:34:27 AM >

_____________________________

Gorean women, whether slave or Free,know, that their simple presence, brings joy to men,and I cannot think but that this pleases them.
Outlaw of Gor, pg 54

(in reply to BeingChewsie)

Post #: 53

RE: A slave's best interests - 4/19/2008 6:11:51 AM

rabinyaZharovna

Posts: 106
Joined: 4/6/2008
Status: offline

I am a bit new to posting here, and thus far have only posted on the slave thread. I read the other threads regularly, but generally don't feel it's my place to post within them. This thread, however, continued to creep around in my head yesterday so I'm offerring up my thoughts.
Mistress Maahsatti, I agree whole heartedly with what you have said. The only thing that comes to my mind is what someone referred to earlier in this thread about it sometimes being unintentional. I have seen this alot.... the woman who thinks she's a slave, or even submissive, only to discover that really what she's into is more of a bedroom playtime. It isn't that she was intentionally lying, or deceitful, just unaware of who she truly was. It would be easy to say, then she should have taken more time to discover who she was before leaping in, yet, at some point the only way to truly realize what you are is through experience. There is a point where the rubber hits the road, so to speak. People, women in particular, I think, buy into a very romantized version of D/s, M/s, Gorean, whatever it is. They read stories, they talk with men, they think, really think, it's what they want. They meet a man, or they bring it to their husband, or whatever, and it's so easy to be that for a night, a weekend, a conversation. Reality vs. fantasy... they don't even realize that they are essentially playing a role for that period of time. There is a start, and a finish... a space where their service ends and they begin. They don't realize, until they are all the way in, how much is required to be all the way in. How every piece of you must become devoted to him, to serving. I had a friend who really struggled with this, she wanted it, she thought, until she really started living it... she had brought it to her husband, he had jumped on board.. wholly, she then went, omg! this isn't what I thought... I don't want to always put him first.... what about me? And... but it wasn't fair to discipline me for THAT! She could never wrap her mind around the idea that the only justification for discipline was that he deemed it necessary. She said to me one time, "I don't liiiike it, it reallly hurt!" My response, "um, it was discipline, it's supposed to hurt, if it didn't, it wouldn't be discipline. If you liked it, where would be the need to not repeat the behavior?" Her response... a feebled, "I guess." Followed with a hearty sigh. She didn't have the heart of a slave, she thought she did because the ideas were erotic to her, but the reality wasn't something she could handle. She didn't know this though, until she actually excperienced it.

Enter what chewsie has said about the man enslaving... again I agree, but what we come back to is the woman who believed she was capable when she wasn't. What's he to do? I'm with you, in believing that a man must enslave me. I don't believe in the idea that submission is a gift... I believe it is something that must be taken, plucked from me... He must be able to create the desire within me to bend to his will. Again, through experience, I realized that I required a very strong, strict man, with a good heart.... thankfully I found that with my Master, and yes, he had to bend me to him, I didn't simply kneel at his feet because I'm of a slave heart. Countless men could have come and gone before I found the one that brought me to the depth of this enslavement. So indeed I think it's a bit about pairing, finding the right one that wants/needs the same level of control... but I also think that you must be dealing with a woman who has come to a point of enough self actualization to know what she is capable of giving, or having taken from her, otherwise what she is saying she wants is a misnomer. So, if a relationship fails I think it's on both parties, not that the man wasn't strong enough to enslave that particular woman, because she may not have the heart that can truly be enslaved. She may not, ultimately, regardless of how erotic she makes it to be, or how deeply she loves him, be able to deal with the loss of self.
Slipping back to the slave box ;)
rabinyaZharovna{Ph0enixF1re}

(in reply to Maahsatti)

Post #: 54

RE: A slave's best interests - 4/19/2008 7:03:25 AM

BeingChewsie

Posts: 1633
Joined: 10/27/2005
Status: offline

Good morning Maahsatti,

I had a big long reply to this but when I read it I realized the below is only the part that really matters.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Maahsatti

There are lots of players out there, thinking they are gonna get a free ride or live a fantasy life of being coddled and cared for.
This is the crux of my arguement.

If you are looking for a free ride and to be coddled be upfront...if a man sees value in you, he'll change that if he wants too. Maybe we should stop telling women they need to play act some scripted version of slave when they are not owned eh? Do you think a Gorean free man(or any aware free man) would find it surprising that a woman with a slave morality might want a free ride or to be coddled or might be deceptive or might not be honorable? Might those be some of the things that make her suited to the collar to begin with?

quote:

FM does not equate to mind reader, and why I also stated, that men who are looking to enslave a woman, really needs to do their best to get to know the girl and her intentions. However, when up against a liar, who is good at deception, that may not always be obvious till, too late.

He can either enslave the girl or he can't. If he can't no hurt, no foul, women often pass through many collars before they hit the one where they will be kept. Maybe its just me but it is no big surprise to me that a woman with a slave morality, a woman suited to the collar, might be skilled at deception and lying about herself and her intentions both to other people and to herself.

quote:

PS and in a world where slavery is consensual only. there absolutely is a degree of a woman holding herself in slavery. otherwise there would be no choice for her to leave, even if the relationship became abusive.

Many women do hold themselves in ongoing voluntary servitude(not slavery), it is unfortunate, but many women want to be in control...they want to know they can walk out that door...they want to know they control their future and destiny and many men allow that. That isn't slavery, consentual or otherwise.

_____________________________

"In fact, it is my contention that most women are accepting of way less than optimal circumstance constantly, and are lucky to be 'snagged' by the right man, if ever. But it is more by happy accident than by their design. "
~Ron and Hup

(in reply to Maahsatti)

Post #: 55

RE: A slave's best interests - 4/19/2008 7:21:44 AM

ygraine

Posts: 674
Joined: 10/10/2006
Status: offline

Wow Chewsie, really profound stuff here!

quote:

ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie

Do you think a Gorean free man(or any aware free man) would find it surprising that a woman with a slave morality might want a free ride or to be coddled or might be deceptive or might not be honorable? Might those be some of the things that make her suited to the collar to begin with?

Many women do hold themselves in ongoing voluntary servitude(not slavery), it is unfortunate, but many women want to be in control...they want to know they can walk out that door...they want to know they control their future and destiny and many men allow that. That isn't slavery, consentual or otherwise.

Both of these ideas are worth discussing on their own merit, in my mind.
I will try to address them seperately in another post, gonna take some thought though.
Y

_____________________________

If you think something is too good to be true, it probably is.

(in reply to BeingChewsie)

Post #: 56

RE: A slave's best interests - 4/19/2008 3:51:58 PM

sunshinemiss

Posts: 16506
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Maahsatti

untill such a time, said slave, realizes, things arent all skittles and beer.

Maahsatti

Greetings Mistress Maahsatti,

You have broken my poor little heart. I was hoping for skittles and beer. It says so right here in my "Slavery for Dummies" book. sigh... I guess you can't read everything you believe... or something like that.

peace and giggles,
sunshine

_____________________________

¿me preguntas por que compro arroz y flores? compro arroz para vivir y flores para tener algo por lo que vivir.
~Confucio

Yes, I am a wonton hussy.

Head Hib Harem Hottie

(in reply to Maahsatti)

Post #: 57

RE: A slave's best interests - 4/19/2008 6:37:45 PM

amphoraHMTC

Posts: 10
Joined: 2/18/2008
Status: offline

Greetings to All:

This one would like to say that any slave be she Gorean or
non-Gorean should choose her Master wisely. In the Gorean ideology
there is no concept of --right/wrong -- ethical/unethical -- your/my
concerns-- It is all in only one person's desires-wants- pleasure,
The Master. He is the only one that is considered in all ways. Now
if you want a good Master you choose wisely, one who believes and
feels that the slaves desires at times comes into play. A Master who
will look at the whole picture, not just his desires of the moment.
amphora was once asked several questions when she told the Dr about
her lifestyle, "Why did you join this lifestyle?" she answered "It
felt right and she carefully chose her Master." "But what if he is
mean to you?" She again replied "That is why she carefully chose her
Master." The dr. asked, "If you want out what do you do?" she
replied "you beg release, but she carefully chose her Master".
Now don't get amphora wrong, she knows the risks involved and said
to the Dr after more questions, "If he is mean or refuses to let you
go, what then?' she answered, "She will say --'Fuck you I'm out of
here,' and leave, but again she chose her Master carefully and
wisely."

amphora told the Dr she knows this Master is worthy of trust,
obedience, and caring, but he is not a God. He is just a great Man.

a slave in the gorean lifestyle knows there are no limits, she gives
all of herself to the Master. the bdsm side of TPE. amphora has been
fighting a concept within her slavery, to others it would be a
simple thing to her it was a huge personal belief. She "finally got
it" about 8:00 am this morning. she feels like a huge stone has been
removed from her body now. She wonders now why it was so hard to
acknowledge and accept the concept. But for her it was. Master has
let her fight and pull away and vent for weeks or more, as he knew
she would eventually get it, and in the long run make a better
slave. He could of just said it is this way deal with it but he let
her wrestle with it in her way to understand and accept it better.
This is to her a good master, he will not break her spirit just mold
it to his ways. "She carefully chose her Master".

she hopes others understand the Gorean way better through this writing.

amphora{HMTC}

(in reply to sunshinemiss)

Post #: 58

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