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A slave's best interests


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A slave's best interests - 4/17/2008 3:09:51 AM   
xoxi


Posts: 1066
Joined: 8/14/2006
Status: offline 		Just a question for anyone who wants to answer it, although I'm primarily looking for the perspectives of the Masters here.

Do you feel that a Master should feel obligated to act within his slave's best interests when giving her orders, if her best interests contradict his own?  Just to give an example, if the girl was living at university when she was collared, and the Master ordered her to drop out of school, move in with him, and get a job.  One would say that her own best interests would be finishing school, yet from the Master's perspective her obligations at school detract from her being a productive member of his household.

I am not asking whether the Master has the *right* to order his slave to do that, I would imagine everyone would agree that he does have the right to do so...I guess I'm asking whether you would consider it to be an ethical thing to do.  And more importantly, why?


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RE: A slave's best interests - 4/17/2008 6:12:09 AM   
ElizabethAnne


Posts: 1711
Status: offline 		Hello xoxi,

From what I've read here, you are making it from the "slave" aspect - it's not.   It's all about what's best for the Master/Owner. 

Take care,

Elizabeth

(in reply to xoxi)
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RE: A slave's best interests - 4/17/2008 6:14:01 AM   
amelliagrace


Posts: 1792
Joined: 8/4/2007
Status: offline 		Interesting question, soshi.
 
Certainly, as you said, he'd be within his rights to do so. 
 
IMO, it speaks of shortsightedness, a lack of interest in developing one's property, and enhancing the long term value of it.  That said, it is possible he might have some unknown, and very good reason, for such an action.  I don't think it would be likely, but it is possible.
 
Taken at face value, if we assume there is no unknown circumstance, the example you give would, again imo, indicate a lack of character, self discipline, and the ability to look beyond today.
 
The question of "ethical" or "unethical" is very much in the eye of the beholder.  Gorean philosophy is pretty clear cut that the desires of the Master trump all else when it comes to property, and we have seen discussed many times in this forum, one need not be a good man to be a Gorean.......though I tend to think that weal and twue Gorean men DO tend to be good men, a higher percentage of the time, than the general population.
 
I'm definitely interested to see what those who wear the name Gorean, and especially the Masters, have to say on this one.
 
Regards-
Grace

(in reply to xoxi)
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RE: A slave's best interests - 4/17/2008 6:28:22 AM   
Lynnxz


Posts: 4073
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Atlanta
Status: offline 		Dunno about you... but if some guy demanded I drop out of school, that'd be it for the relationship for me. -.-  I don't have time for insecure males that are threatened by their slave furthering themselves. I don't care what you identify as, don't let some person who may or may not stick around, affect the rest of your life like that.

Reality check please.

(in reply to amelliagrace)
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RE: A slave's best interests - 4/17/2008 6:40:11 AM   
ElizabethAnne


Posts: 1711
Status: offline 		Hello Lynnxz,

As Grace said, the eyes of the Master trump all else, and we are talking about a Gorean man.   The question as I read it - it's about the slave....and in Gorean things - it's not.  It's about the man.  WHAT he desires, I never said he would make her quit, it's my belief ..(stresses my - as in all three of us, me-myself- and I) - could make her quit - IF he chose.

Be well,

Elizabeth

(in reply to Lynnxz)
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RE: A slave's best interests - 4/17/2008 6:41:17 AM   
amelliagrace


Posts: 1792
Joined: 8/4/2007
Status: offline 		Well, that would be just one of myriad reasons that I'm not slave material.
 
What you've lost sight of, I think, is that this is a Gorean discussion board.  Gorean slavery is completely different kettle of fish from that entered into by the majority who practice D/s or M/s.
 
She who begs a Gorean collar best be damned sure of the character of the one she begs it from.
 
Grace

(in reply to Lynnxz)
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RE: A slave's best interests - 4/17/2008 6:54:15 AM   
Anarrus


Posts: 475
Joined: 11/8/2005
Status: offline 		Greetings xoxi,
It's pretty simple really. If her best interests contradict his, then she isn't the slave for him.

Be well

Anarrus



< Message edited by Anarrus -- 4/17/2008 7:51:13 AM >

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RE: A slave's best interests - 4/17/2008 7:04:33 AM   
edana


Posts: 594
Joined: 10/13/2004
Status: offline 		Greetings,

And this is why you think quite a bit before you beg the collar of a man.   If the girl did her homework and the man made his intentions toward her clear either by stating that she will be optimized to his pleasure, or by outright telling her that she will be instructed to leave school and she still begs his collar, then i guess its not really a big deal.

There could be many situations where it would be both in the best interest of the slave and the Owner to remove the girl from school.  For instance if she was seriously struggling,  or if she was forced into a career path perhaps by her parents that did not suit neither her nor her owner.  

A man will assess a girl and hopefully use her natural assets to his benefit.  If she is intelligent and educated or has the potential to become a valued asset in those regards then it is my belief that any man who collared her would enhance those qualities either by keeping her in school, or put her back when he feels she is ready.

I too look forward to some more replies from the Free.

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edana

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(in reply to amelliagrace)
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RE: A slave's best interests - 4/17/2008 7:05:48 AM   
Lynnxz


Posts: 4073
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Atlanta
Status: offline 		I don't care if he's Gorean, or Ethiopian. At some point you have to take a reality check and realize that dropping out of school is one of the worst things you could do for yourself, unless I suppose you just aren't getting it, and are failing miserably.

This, however:
quote:

Greetings xoxi,
It's pretty simple really. If her best interests contradict his, then she isn't the slave for him.
Be well
Anarrus


...makes a lot of sense. If you want to go to school xoxi, make sure that the man you are with, in any relationship, isn't going to get in the way.

(in reply to Anarrus)
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RE: A slave's best interests - 4/17/2008 7:11:36 AM   
xBullx


Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		What is this, an evening at the Improv?


quote:



make sure that the man you are with, in any relationship, isn't going to get in the way.



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Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to Lynnxz)
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RE: A slave's best interests - 4/17/2008 7:17:58 AM   
ghitaPVH


Posts: 1363
Joined: 11/14/2007
Status: offline 		Greetings soshi...

I was told to leave school, from which I had a semester and a half left and at the time held a 4.0GPA working on a degree in which I was really interested in, wasnt "forced" into by anyone (I had already compleated the degree I was forced into) and also was told to quit my job where I had been working since I was 15 and had more seniority than most poeple there twice my age. If Id stayed Id be management by now.

At the time I was so flipping angry, I didnt think it was fair at all....but now, looking back, I believe both of those choices were definantly in my best interest..I just couldnt see it at the time.

ghita~

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RE: A slave's best interests - 4/17/2008 7:53:37 AM   
Anarrus


Posts: 475
Joined: 11/8/2005
Status: offline 		quick reply...

OK, once again I see what could be a good topic for discussion going off on a tangent. Is the topic about whether a college education is important or is it about the slave serving a Gorean man according to his wishes and being the best damn slave you can be for him while gaining fullfillment in your life from doing that?

I think everyone that reads these boards would pretty much agree a college education is important. Just how important is a matter of individual opinion when weighed against other interests and concerns.
So let's get back to the nitty-gritty...who's interests are most important in the Gorean M/s relationship? What happens if there's a conflict?   Seems pretty self-evident to me.

Again..be well

Anarrus 

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(in reply to ghitaPVH)
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RE: A slave's best interests - 4/17/2008 8:05:28 AM   
ghitaPVH


Posts: 1363
Joined: 11/14/2007
Status: offline 		Greetings, Master Anarrus,

My apologies, you're right..all I spoke about was the example soshi gave because her example was one that had specifically happened to me. But I think in my relationship, Sirs interests have always come first without question. Granted I took a long time (almost 3 years) learning what those interests were going to be and deciding if I really wanted his collar before I begged for it. There are times there has been a conflict, sometimes he decides that my best interests are his also, sometimes not. Its been hard sometimes, when I think I really need to do something and his answer is no. My family has finally come to realize that just because they schedule something doesnt mean Ill drop everything and be there, Ive missed family reuinions and weddings and funerals on occasion because Sir has something else he needs me to do at that time...its hard...but its definantly been worth it...

ghita~

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Don't expect anything of me and I promise I'll never disappoint you.

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RE: A slave's best interests - 4/17/2008 8:23:52 AM   
sassysexygirl


Posts: 213
Joined: 8/23/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

Do you feel that a Master should feel obligated to act within his slave's best interests when giving her orders, if her best interests contradict his own?

I guess I'm asking whether you would consider it to be an ethical thing to do.  And more importantly, why?


greetings Masters
greetings Mistresses
greetings slaves
greetings xoxi

the parts that gem pulled from your original post seem to be the actual question.  this one's response relative to the educational example would be, it's totally up to the Master how to use His property, whether to leave her in school, or not, or make her work, or not, whatever He wishes.  that is, simply, the relationship she begged to be put into.  she needs to deal with it.  she begged the collar, He didn't beg her to wear it.

but, as to whether or not His orders as they relate to her best interests should be put before His own interest, gem believes a good Master will reveiw the issue from all angles and if the slave's best interest in that particular instance needs put before His, then yes, He will most likely do it.  only because the slave, having given all of herself, all of her outside "things", everything, to her Master, in total trust that He will take care of her needs, then He most likely will do so.  as ghita said, it may not be possible to see the best interest of the slave at the time the Master makes the decision/gives the orders/whatever.

gem would like to make clear, however, the word "obligated" is not a word gem would use relative to a Gorean Master and His slave.  He is "obligated" to feed, cloth and house her.   hopefully, the slave has begged the collar of a Master who will give more than that in taking care of her.

and in re-reading this post, gem hopes it makes sense.  it does to her, but she can't seem to put it more plainly.

well wishes,
gemmie

edited to include "Gorean" so those who are not Gorean get gem's drift

< Message edited by sassysexygirl -- 4/17/2008 8:27:39 AM >

(in reply to xoxi)
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RE: A slave's best interests - 4/17/2008 8:44:57 AM   
Stephann


Posts: 4212
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Los Angeles, CA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

Just a question for anyone who wants to answer it, although I'm primarily looking for the perspectives of the Masters here.

Do you feel that a Master should feel obligated to act within his slave's best interests when giving her orders, if her best interests contradict his own?  Just to give an example, if the girl was living at university when she was collared, and the Master ordered her to drop out of school, move in with him, and get a job.  One would say that her own best interests would be finishing school, yet from the Master's perspective her obligations at school detract from her being a productive member of his household.

I am not asking whether the Master has the *right* to order his slave to do that, I would imagine everyone would agree that he does have the right to do so...I guess I'm asking whether you would consider it to be an ethical thing to do.  And more importantly, why?



It stands to reason, if she has begged to be his slave (and not merely his submissive girlfriend) than his ethics become based on what he feels is best for his house.  A man can own a dog, and choose to purchase the cheapest food possible, give it a tiny space to live in, and otherwise care for the animal in less-than-optimal yet still (technically) conditions.  I would consider that to be unethical, since the dog couldn't choose to wear her master's collar.

It can not be for the slave to dictate what is ethical, or not.  I might look at how another man cares for his slave, or dog, and comment, disagree, cajole, insult, etc, but at the end of the day, unless I am capable of taking possession of his property from him, that property will remain his.  It isn't for his property to cajole, insult, threaten, or make demands on her owner.  Certainly, her perspective and expectations will carry some value in the end, but the moment she attempts to manipulate him, she should well expect a strong, harsh reminder in who's ethics rule the house. 

This isn't to say she shouldn't make the effort to protect herself; if she is capable of manipulating her man, she should.  I'm only illustrating that if she can manipulate him (instead of leaving him to make the best decisions) than authority transfer isn't taking place.

I'm afraid I'm woefully inarticulate this morning; I'll come back to this another time I think.

Stephan


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RE: A slave's best interests - 4/17/2008 9:06:35 AM   
Anarrus


Posts: 475
Joined: 11/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann


This isn't to say she shouldn't make the effort to protect herself; if she is capable of manipulating her man, she should.  I'm only illustrating that if she can manipulate him (instead of leaving him to make the best decisions) than authority transfer isn't taking place.


Stephan


 
Stephann,
 
That'd have me wondering who was truly the Free in a situation like that. Obviously too, there other ways of protecting oneself other than manipulation.
 
Be well
 
Anarrus

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"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free."...Goethe
"Send lawyers, guns and money" ..Warren Zevon

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RE: A slave's best interests - 4/17/2008 11:44:07 AM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 8567
Joined: 1/12/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi


Do you feel that a Master should feel obligated to act within his slave's best interests when giving her orders, if her best interests contradict his own? 

I am not asking whether the Master has the *right* to order his slave to do that, I would imagine everyone would agree that he does have the right to do so...I guess I'm asking whether you would consider it to be an ethical thing to do.  And more importantly, why?



Nope, I don't feel he would be obligated and, yes, I consider it completely ethical. Master chooses the path. I choose the Master based on the path he walks. If his path is appealing to me, I follow him. If it's not, then I am the one who needs to recognize the incompatibility and either walk my own path or find a Master whose feet point in the same direction as my own. It's not my job to try to alter 'his' course and, in my opinion, it would be unethical for me to do so and call myself a slave.



Celeste

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RE: A slave's best interests - 4/17/2008 11:45:50 AM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		Define "best interests"

Wants differ from needs.

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RE: A slave's best interests - 4/17/2008 12:10:17 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7329
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		At some point you have to look at the culture. Your reality is created by your thoughts and your perceptions. If you beg the collar of a Gorean Man, then you do as instructed. It is that simple. If you do not like it, use the door.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lynnxz

I don't care if he's Gorean, or Ethiopian. At some point you have to take a reality check and realize that dropping out of school is one of the worst things you could do for yourself, unless I suppose you just aren't getting it, and are failing miserably.

This, however:
quote:

Greetings xoxi,
It's pretty simple really. If her best interests contradict his, then she isn't the slave for him.
Be well
Anarrus


...makes a lot of sense. If you want to go to school xoxi, make sure that the man you are with, in any relationship, isn't going to get in the way.



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RE: A slave's best interests - 4/17/2008 1:14:34 PM   
Malkinius


Posts: 1584
Joined: 1/9/2004
Status: offline 		greetings soshi....

You chose an interesting example. If you want the details on what I did in that situation, go to my web site and read the page entitled "Legal Slave". <evil grin>

The main point here is that to some extent, even Gorean men will look at things from what THEY think is best for the slave. It might be to keep her in school. It might be otherwise. As has been pointed out, it is his choice once the woman begs the collar. She always has the choice to submit to whatever he decides or to leave and fail as a slave. Begging to be released is not failure as a slave unless the Master denies it and she then leaves.

be well.....

Malkinius



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