Why is legalized slavery seen as a bad thing?

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Why is legalized slavery seen as a bad thing?

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Why is legalized slavery seen as a bad thing? - 4/17/2008 9:30:39 PM

OrionTheWolf

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Greetings to Free and property,

Because of certain discussions lately, and my own thoughts, I would like to know what others believe are the downsides of legalized slavery? Has anyone ever looked into slavery as practiced in ancient Rome? Are there some people that are better off having someone else control their lives? Many discussions we have revolved around the inter-personal relationship of a Master and their slave, but what about the other kind that Norman describes?

Live well,
Orion

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.

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RE: Why is legalized slavery seen as a bad thing? - 4/17/2008 11:41:54 PM

allyC

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Greetings, Master. It is my belief that all human beings have an inalienable right to be free and that right should only be infringed legally if that person commits some sort of transgression that would require the removal of his/her freedom. (i.e. felony conviction, etc.) I do think there are some people out there who don't seem very capable of controlling their own life, however, who gets to decide who is or is not capable? In such a case where would the line be drawn? Is a handicap or a slower IQ or even a lack of common sense in some areas enough to decide a person does not deserve freedom? How do we as a people decide who is better off having someone else control their life? What I love about the process of enslavement in a consensual atmosphere is that it happens organically - it happens as a result of who the individuals are in relation to each other - not because one person is better off having "someone" control their life. It happens because that 'someone' is the right person. If a man (or woman) is strong enough, powerful enough, dominant enough, and skilled, that person will be able to enslave another person. They do it on the merit of their demonstrating their ability to control - not by the slave demonstrating their inability to control themselves. At least in the cases of genuine enslavement that I have seen. I am sure that there are exceptions. I don't believe that enforced, legal, slavery is something that works as a whole for the benefit of all involved unless it takes place in a fictional novel. Well wishes, Cav's ally

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

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RE: Why is legalized slavery seen as a bad thing? - 4/18/2008 2:47:43 AM

MRandme

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Greetings Master Orion,

i find myself agreeing with ally. The possibilities for abuse are rife with a system of forced slavery.

If slavery is not consensual it is immoral IMHO. Stripping another of their freedom is a horrible thing. It is kinder to kill a man than lock him away for life, or to reduce him to property against his will.

Being a person of contradictions, i find the idea of indentured servitude more palatable.

Enjoy Your day,

g

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i've gone to be with Him again...

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RE: Why is legalized slavery seen as a bad thing? - 4/18/2008 3:13:25 AM

Cherylmazana

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The reason legalised slavery is a bad thing is we don’t live in Rome, we don’t live in times when having slaves was natural and part of the environment.

We live in a time when slaves are young Chinese chained to benches to work on counterfeit goods in an illegal factory. Or Thai women chained to beds in a brothel, or the Arabs who still kidnap so they can sell the lil ones to work as fishers in dangerous waters where many die because they are smaller than big ums and have nimbler fingers as well as being easier to control, or maybe just cutting the cane in plantations.

We live in a world where Chinese immigrants who cant speak the language are ordered to pick cockles from a beach and die when the tide comes in.

Or girls are kidnapped because there are not enough females around.

So we go round and round in circles but in the end it always comes back to basically because we don’t live on Gor, and slavers on Earth are not in the job to create happy sex kittens who love their job.

Cheryl

(in reply to MRandme)

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RE: Why is legalized slavery seen as a bad thing? - 4/18/2008 4:22:49 AM

Aswad

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Tal Orion,

Downsides? As practiced in ancient Rome? Spartacus comes to mind. He'd be a downside.

Are some people better off having others running their lives? Yes, the bulk of the human population.

Beyond that, I did cover a number of things about it (in the legalized / institutional sense of the word) in the exchange with Marcus. But apart from that, it seems people don't generally want to move the discussions outside the realm of consensual D/s, and I'm not sure where our hosts would care to draw the lines, either. There are indeed two valid interpretations of the slavery motif, and I see many as being inconsistent in this regard.

Should I restate the points from the exchange with Marcus, or did you have something else in mind?

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

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RE: Why is legalized slavery seen as a bad thing? - 4/18/2008 4:27:57 AM

kajjirus

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Master Orion:

slavery, unless practiced as a consensual relationship between adults only, is an abomination and hurts the slave holder as much as the slave.

with greatest respect,

jidar

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

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RE: Why is legalized slavery seen as a bad thing? - 4/18/2008 5:11:51 AM

xBullx

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-fast replay, in general, specifically to no one-

Interesting........................

< Message edited by xBullx -- 4/18/2008 5:13:55 AM >

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RE: Why is legalized slavery seen as a bad thing? - 4/18/2008 5:51:10 AM

Luther6

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One matter that probably should be addressed are the differences between a "slave society" and a "slave-owning society." According to many sociologists and historians, there have only been 5 slave societies in history, though there have been many more slave owning ones. Though there is not a singlt accepted definition for what constitutes a "slave society," the general consensus centers on two points, slave population and their connection to production. The slave population must be significant, generally at least 20%. Plus, slaves must play a significant role in that society's production, often agriculture. The five slave societies have been Athens, Roman Italy, Brazil, the Carribean and the U.S. (the later three during the 16-19th centuries).

By the above definition, Gor would not be considered a slave society. The slave population is less than 2% and slaves play only a minor role in production.

For the modern U.S. to be considered a slave society, we would need at least about 60 million slaves (considering the U.S. population is just over 300 million). The current prison population in the U.S. is less than 2% of the population.

As Aswad mentioned, the possibility of slave rebellion is always a potential threat where slavery exists. The Gorean books indicate this to be the case with male slaves, and they undertake certain measures to try to minimize that threat. The Spartans enslaved the Messenians, who may have outnumbered the Spartans by as much as ten to one. And the Spartans faced at least two very significant slave revolts which almost destroyed their society. Haiti was born of a successful slave revolt. The U.S. already has prison riots sometimes. That would certainly multiply if legal slavery were instituted.

We probably should also address the reason for instituting legal slavery. On Gor for example, male slavery was largely a matter of economics. Would it be the same if we instituted legal slavery in the U.S.? If so, how significant an economic impact would such slavery have and would such impact be sufficient to overcome any negative consequences? Or would slavery be just a different means of punishment, rather than simple imprisonment?

Just some random thoughts,
Luther

_____________________________

“The Goreans have very different notions of morality from those of Earth.”
(Marauders of Gor, p.7)

(in reply to xBullx)

Post #: 8

RE: Why is legalized slavery seen as a bad thing? - 4/18/2008 6:22:58 AM

Terrah

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Tal Everyone,

quote:

would like to know what others believe are the downsides of legalized slavery?

Well, there are several downsides, first of all, how would you make sure that the people you wish to enslave are worth it? I mean yeah, we could enslave criminals of lesser crimes, make them work for others until the debt they owe to society is paid in full. We could enslave those of heinous crimes as well. making them serve the others in prison and not be let out for life, but who is to decide these things? Certainly not those who are in a position of power already, why they are all dishonest and corrupt already. Can't let the government get involved, the government is not there to supervise states rights at such a level. So it's up to the states to take care of this on their own, hmm well that make sense to me, but then who is going to decide who is not corrupt and can rationally determine who shall or not be enslaved, and for how long? At the rate of making up a decision on who will decide several more decades shall most likely pass before that is made up.

Another downside is how shall they be enslaved? I mean hardly anyone believes in slavery any longer, who shall be in charge of these slaves and who will let them work for them?

All in all it's an impossible situation as slavery has been banned world wide even though yes it is still practiced world wide for that matter.

quote:

Has anyone ever looked into slavery as practiced in ancient Rome?

Well to some degree I have, I was interested in slavery as a child, so I read up on slavery as much as I could at the time given I was in a small town and the materials were limited greatly. Now with the Romans they enslaved millions of people, and it was done by degrees. For instance, take the longevity of the rule of Rome, it was the greatest power on Earth for years, it encompassed nearly all of the Earth at one time, and they had a system where the people they conquered were then under the advisement of Roman leaders people put in place who were extremely corrupt and did what they liked in the name of Rome. Slavery for a Roman subject could happen at any moment for anything at all. They and their families would be taken away and put in labor camps and made to work until they died at hard labor most times. In today's society especially in America we don't agree with slavery, and definitely not the enslavement of families because of the wrongs by a person of that family. That's just one example.

quote:

Are there some people that are better off having someone else control their lives?

Absolutely. There are people who cannot take care of themselves at all, I am speaking of the disabled who by reason they were born not being "normal" by our standards and show examples they cannot make it in our world by themselves, certainly need someone to look after them to some extent.

Now if you are speaking of "normal" people, there again, I have to agree, some simply cannot take care of themselves very well at all. They are uneducated, poor, probably gang members or lost souls who for whatever reason simply cannot get along in society, we need to help them be educated, realize they need to be a part of society and leave the world they have created that is full of hate, violence, and disruption and be a part of what we have created here. I don't think slavery will help that at all, for the very context of slavery is that the slave usually doesn't get any special attention, simply put it is there to work or die.

quote:

Many discussions we have revolved around the inter-personal relationship of a Master and their slave, but what about the other kind that Norman describes?

Well, he describes a fictional planet where slavery is the norm. Slavery is very much a part of everyday life and expectations, it is a part of the culture he speaks of. Now it is not, the here and now well even when he wrote the books there was no slavery accepted in the US or the UK.. I mean it's a nice fantasy, but also if you look at it, still didn't stop crimes from happening, or even wars from starting. I don't see where it necessarily improved life at all, it was just a custom that worked for some. But by in large, the books also state most of the work done was by that of the free man anyhow. So even then slaves didn't play a huge role in the makeup of the society there.

I wish you well,

Terrah

_____________________________

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RE: Why is legalized slavery seen as a bad thing? - 4/18/2008 6:58:56 AM

Musicmystery

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Tal Orion,

Well, the Rape of the Sabine Women comes to mind------grabbing a girl is always the easiest way to get a slave, if arguably not the best way.

I've sometimes thought about story ideas involving legal consensual slavery in the U.S. Two problems: first, the conservative--nay, reactionary political/cultural climate (although we like to think we have progressive/lberal views, we're in societal denial), and second, what would society do with "failed" Master/slave relationships? "Gorean" answers to that problem won't work well in the larger legal world.

But in a sense, we DO have legal consensual slavery, as you and your girl have the freedom to live your lives in the relationships you've chosen.

For the treatment of criminals, as you allude to in your other thread, we already practice forced labor in some instances--all legal.

Best,

Tim

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Greetings to Free and property,

Because of certain discussions lately, and my own thoughts, I would like to know what others believe are the downsides of legalized slavery? Has anyone ever looked into slavery as practiced in ancient Rome? Are there some people that are better off having someone else control their lives? Many discussions we have revolved around the inter-personal relationship of a Master and their slave, but what about the other kind that Norman describes?

Live well,
Orion

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 4/18/2008 7:04:33 AM >

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RE: Why is legalized slavery seen as a bad thing? - 4/18/2008 7:04:54 AM

amelliagrace

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Greetings to Free and property,

Because of certain discussions lately, and my own thoughts, I would like to know what others believe are the downsides of legalized slavery? Has anyone ever looked into slavery as practiced in ancient Rome? Are there some people that are better off having someone else control their lives? Many discussions we have revolved around the inter-personal relationship of a Master and their slave, but what about the other kind that Norman describes?

Live well,
Orion

Speaking for myself, I see it as an overall negative thing, in spite of the fact that there are indeed many people who belong in a collar. Not just women, and not just criminals.

The problem with slavery as a legal institution is that it inherently rewards some who are weak, or lack character, or show little to no integrity. Once slavery becomes socially normative, the same human failings which weaken and plague any other aspect of society will emerge to create serious problems there as well. Keeping the abusive out of authority positions is nigh impossible. Those who will seek to bend and twist the system to benefit themselves rather than their Home Stone are ever present, in any society. The greater power such individuals hold over others, the greater the potential harm done to both individuals and society.

Further, once slavery is accepted, it isn't a quantum leap for it to degenerate from "slavery due to merit" to "slavery due to birth"...or political opinion...or eye color...and so on. I am adamatly opposed to any system which would enslave based on anything other than consensual resignation of rights and freedom, or slavery/endenturement of specific length of time and condition as contracted for by individuals, or as penance for a crime, under clearly outlined and strictly regulated length of time and conditions.

I'm a cynic, and I don't trust people in general with great amounts of power.

Regards-
Grace

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

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RE: Why is legalized slavery seen as a bad thing? - 4/18/2008 7:07:07 AM

dawntreader

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In my opinion, coming at this from a philosophical and perhaps esoteric point of view....if legalized slavery retards the spititual and mental growth of a person to the point they are only thinking in "survival mode", they cannot "evolve" in this lifetime. It is difficult for me to see any benefits to this except to the slave owner and even then, i see it as stunting his "growth" in favor for the material world~

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RE: Why is legalized slavery seen as a bad thing? - 4/18/2008 7:18:25 AM

MadameMarque

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Because any attempt by the law to enforce the slave's side of the contract, were the slave to withdraw consent, would amount to enforcement of involuntary slavery.

Unless you mean legalized involuntary slavery, in which case, there is a consensus among ethical people that this is a crime against humanity.

< Message edited by MadameMarque -- 4/18/2008 7:19:01 AM >

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RE: Why is legalized slavery seen as a bad thing? - 4/18/2008 7:29:17 AM

amelliagrace

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dawntreader

In my opinion, coming at this from a philosophical and perhaps esoteric point of view....if legalized slavery retards the spititual and mental growth of a person to the point they are only thinking in "survival mode", they cannot "evolve" in this lifetime. It is difficult for me to see any benefits to this except to the slave owner and even then, i see it as stunting his "growth" in favor for the material world~

That is an excellent point, and well made, j.

Regards-
Grace

(in reply to dawntreader)

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RE: Why is legalized slavery seen as a bad thing? - 4/18/2008 7:35:45 AM

Jahnaca

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Greetings

In order for any system of legalized slavery to exist without “abuse” (used liberally here) you first must obtain a system of government that is ideal. Historically human beings are famous for being unstable. Unstable how? There has been no known system of human rule that remains stable and ideal over the long haul. Humans are fluid by nature and rotten apples always end up ruling one way or another. This makes a good concept suddenly become a hell. In our infinite wisdom we create new rule to correct the short comings of old rule, and then we start really screwing it up. Human society also has among it’s populations people who are greedy, self centred, cruel, mean, harsh and a host of other putting a wrench into something ideal type thing. All in all unless you start changing the vast majority of humanity into something else we will never achieve a long term positive goal. This has been historically proven.

In my eyes the problem isn’t in the word slavery, or even with it’s usage, it’s with human beings who screw it up. There have been no known methods of avoiding that since human beings have been living on planet Earth.

Jahna

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RE: Why is legalized slavery seen as a bad thing? - 4/18/2008 7:39:46 AM

MastrVran

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Tal,

My main problem with real slavery is the same problem I have with government. Its usually run by people who wanted the job which in most cases, means by someone who is psychologically unfit for the position.

Just as an example look at the prison system. How many of these wonderful low payed prison gaurds would anyone really want as a Master? So from a slaves perspective, this is certainly not a good idea. And from a realists perspective, especially with the eductaion level of the world today, most people would not have a clue about taking care of a slave, heck most people cant even raise a dog or a child decently. Imagine the chaos and problems with placing these people in charge of a slave, especially if the slave resents being a slave.

MV

(in reply to MadameMarque)

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RE: Why is legalized slavery seen as a bad thing? - 4/18/2008 7:46:00 AM

MastrVran

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quote:

ORIGINAL: amelliagrace

quote:

ORIGINAL: dawntreader

In my opinion, coming at this from a philosophical and perhaps esoteric point of view....if legalized slavery retards the spititual and mental growth of a person to the point they are only thinking in "survival mode", they cannot "evolve" in this lifetime. It is difficult for me to see any benefits to this except to the slave owner and even then, i see it as stunting his "growth" in favor for the material world~

That is an excellent point, and well made, j.

Regards-
Grace

Thats really only because of how we have done slavery in the modern era.

Refering back to Ancient Rome. Many of the great thinkers and teachers of the day were Greek slaves and highly educated. Some of the greatest leaders of the time, had a slave who certainly was not in survival mode or was being stunted, but instead was being given any and all things needed to improve both the slave and the children the slave was teaching.

And yes these may well have been the exception.

MV

< Message edited by MastrVran -- 4/18/2008 7:47:08 AM >

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RE: Why is legalized slavery seen as a bad thing? - 4/18/2008 8:07:39 AM

OrionTheWolf

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~FR~

I will post some more thoughts for discussion later, when I have more time. I am very interested in how this is viewed from the Morality of others that are Gorean, as well as it is interesting that some of these same arguements could be applied to things that happen in the US, UK, Europe, etc. on a daily basis. More to follow.

Live well,
Orion

_____________________________

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RE: Why is legalized slavery seen as a bad thing? - 4/18/2008 8:21:53 AM

amelliagrace

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MastrVran

quote:

ORIGINAL: amelliagrace

quote:

ORIGINAL: dawntreader

In my opinion, coming at this from a philosophical and perhaps esoteric point of view....if legalized slavery retards the spititual and mental growth of a person to the point they are only thinking in "survival mode", they cannot "evolve" in this lifetime. It is difficult for me to see any benefits to this except to the slave owner and even then, i see it as stunting his "growth" in favor for the material world~

That is an excellent point, and well made, j.

Regards-
Grace

Thats really only because of how we have done slavery in the modern era.

Refering back to Ancient Rome. Many of the great thinkers and teachers of the day were Greek slaves and highly educated. Some of the greatest leaders of the time, had a slave who certainly was not in survival mode or was being stunted, but instead was being given any and all things needed to improve both the slave and the children the slave was teaching.

And yes these may well have been the exception.

MV

I believe that is why j used that small, important little word, "if". Is that the case, j?

Grace

(in reply to MastrVran)

Post #: 19

RE: Why is legalized slavery seen as a bad thing? - 4/18/2008 10:41:53 AM

MastrVran

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The word "if" in this case seemed to imply more of a this is the way he sees it as being. At least as the rest of his comments indicated.

And mine were really dealing with the exceptions rather than say, the guy who did nothing but break his back doing hard manual labor till he died. Or the gladiator who was adored by many woman but who died on a boody arena floor and his body was dragged off to be dumped somewhere.

Slavery almost never, without a strong state backed system and a population that supports it, has a chance to survive. It also most often works best when there is a real division as to who is the slave and who are the owners. For instance in the south, you did not see white slaves. Everyone knew the black person was an appropriate slave because they were actually inferior. Did not make it the truth. But it made owning slaves seem reasonable. Many people find it is better to feel superior to someone else than actually be superior. If everyone was a potentail slave, for some reason that makes slavery far less appealing.

In ancient times, slaves could be made of anyone your people captured. So that helped to make slavery reasonable. You had to lose to be a slave and we wont lose.

Just some thoughts.

MV

(in reply to amelliagrace)

Post #: 20

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