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Gorean Moral Values - 4/18/2008 12:26:08 PM   
kisshou


Posts: 2425
Joined: 2/11/2005
Status: offline 		Greetings,

the other night Master PhantomOp and I were talking and I said to him "Master if you ever freed me I don't think I would be a Gorean because I don't believe I have Gorean morals." This is not meant to be a thread about slaves since I am owned by him I live by his morals. That being said, I was taught from an early age a type of Christian morality where God is love, love thy neighbor as thyself, turn the other cheek. Things of that nature which to me seem very at odds with , the word for stranger is the same as enemy, the emphasis on living life to its fullest (with no worry about an afterlife), the fact that there is a Caste of Thieves when one of the 10 commandments is Do not steal.

What I have been trying to figure out is if Gorean Moral values can coexist within a person along with religious moral values? Is there a separate moral sense of right and wrong if you are a Gorean? Why is it okay that there is a Caste of Thieves?

I would really appreciate any instructions , thoughts or comments from all the members of this forum.

thanks and well wishes
kisshou
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Gorean Moral Values - 4/18/2008 1:37:11 PM   
sextoygirlNY


Posts: 194
Joined: 7/25/2007
From: Long Island, NY
Status: offline 		greetings kisshou,

think morality is only an issue when in comparison to something else. You asked why is it ok to have a Caste of Theives, i think of it along the same lines of why is it that we do have organized crimes, gang members, child pornography rings, even animal lovers (zoo). The reason because within that particular circle it is morale.  Only when compared to fundamentalist or religious groups or those with a voice who point things to be wrong, imoral or sacreligious, does it then become an issue of morality.
Take a look at the 10 commandments alone, and how it compares to Gorean ethics...
1-do not worship any other gods-(well some Masters think they are gods...lol)
2-Do not make any idols (Home Stone, Master, Collars-would these be a form of idol?)
3-Do not misue the name of God (how many have uttered God Damnit!)
4-Keep the Sabbath holy-(and how many have made other holidays holy too?)
5-Honor your father and mother (yet i have read many passages here in reguards to how difficult living at homes was when growing up-maybe only honor if they show honor as well)
6-do not murder-And how many would die for their slave, or kill for their slave
7-Do not commit adultery (any man with a FC and a slave is)
8-Do not steal-(all the time)
9-do not Lie-(sometimes its a necessity)
10-Do not covet (yep thats done too)

Just a short example...not to get in a religious debate, but i really believe religion is a set of ideals of perfection, something which is rarely obtain. Its a Goal to work for, and a goal to strive for, but not obtainable.  Its something that can guide a person on a path (right or wrong, that is where comparison involves)
The KKK is a moral group, the Cribs is a moral group, the Mafia is a moral group, the nazis is a moral group, the NRA is a moral group, Any one who voted for GWB is a Moral person. Its the moment that you compare those people to your beliefs is where it turns immoral...
just my blabbering thoughts that make no sense..
wishes you well
melanie

_____________________________

Don't Dream It, Be It!

Do not ask how to live, but instead proceed to do so.

"Do i have a choice?" Of course you do, but it would please me if you said "on it"


(in reply to kisshou)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Gorean Moral Values - 4/18/2008 7:04:28 PM   
Trevelyan


Posts: 528
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Mountain View, CA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kisshou

Greetings,

the other night Master PhantomOp and I were talking and I said to him "Master if you ever freed me I don't think I would be a Gorean because I don't believe I have Gorean morals." This is not meant to be a thread about slaves since I am owned by him I live by his morals. That being said, I was taught from an early age a type of Christian morality where God is love, love thy neighbor as thyself, turn the other cheek. Things of that nature which to me seem very at odds with , the word for stranger is the same as enemy, the emphasis on living life to its fullest (with no worry about an afterlife), the fact that there is a Caste of Thieves when one of the 10 commandments is Do not steal.

What I have been trying to figure out is if Gorean Moral values can coexist within a person along with religious moral values? Is there a separate moral sense of right and wrong if you are a Gorean? Why is it okay that there is a Caste of Thieves?

I would really appreciate any instructions , thoughts or comments from all the members of this forum.

thanks and well wishes
kisshou


There is a separate moral sense of right and wrong if you are Gorean, at least if you are one of the Goreans in the books.

Moral, morals and morality are an adjective and two nouns that all refer to the notion of right and wrong.  A moral value is a value that one holds regarding right behavior.  Morals are rules of right conduct.  A morality is a system of ideas of right and wrong conduct.

Different groups hold different moral values, morals and moralities.  Christians have a morality, even though different Christians may hold somewhat different versions of it.  I recall the quote from Jesus when he was asked which of the 10 commandments were the most important.  His answer, to love God and to love other people as you love yourself, is, in my opinion, the basis of Christian morality.  I am sure that others disagree.

Goreans in the books have a definite morality, which is described in detail in the first chapter of Marauders of Gor, and illustrated throughout the series.  As I understand it, the Gorean system of ideas of right and wrong is based on the notion that people are not equal, and that superiority, equality and inferiority can only be demonstrated, not claimed without demonstration.  It encourages conquest, defiance, honor, courage, hardness and strength, rather than resignation, accomodation, tenderness, pity, sweetness and gentleness, as are encouraged by many moralities currently in favor on Earth.

It is ok that there is a caste of thieves on Gor because it is morally all right to steal on Gor, in fact, as in the case of a tarn strike, stealing is very positive moral behavior.

In my opinion, it is very difficult for a person to hold Gorean moral values and also hold mainstream Christian moral values.  To me, many of the values are contradictory.  For example, a Christian is encouraged to turn the other cheek.  I think the Gorean moral value of defiance is directly opposed to that Christian moral value.  Some people have no problem with such dissonance and never let it bother them, but it bothers me.

I wish you well

Trevelyan



_____________________________

"In short the differences between the men of Earth and those of Gor were almost certain to be primarily cultural, and not physiological."
Mercenaries of Gor

(in reply to kisshou)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Gorean Moral Values - 4/18/2008 9:05:48 PM   
ZebRarius


Posts: 88
Joined: 3/17/2008
Status: offline 		Tal,

I could really dig into this topic in detail, and maybe I will in the future, if it pleases me to do so.  Right now it does not, but there is one point I wish to address:

quote:

8-Do not steal-(all the time)


If by this sextoygirl means to imply that Goreans steal "all the time," then she is quite mistaken.  To prove that this statement is true she would need to provide a quote from the books which says that Goreans steal all the time.  If she provides an example of a Gorean who steals, then that is merely one example and is not proof that it happens "all the time."  In fact, I'd say that theft is rather less common on Gor as evidenced by the fact that Gorean domiciles are not commonly locked.

quote:

It is ok that there is a caste of thieves on Gor because it is morally all right to steal on Gor, in fact, as in the case of a tarn strike, stealing is very positive moral behavior.


No, Trevelyan, there is not a Caste of Thieves on Gor.  There is a Caste of Thieves in Port Kar.  Port Kar is unlike other cities of Gor.  Nowhere is it said that "it is morally all right to steal."  In fact, when one of the Caste of Thieves in Port Kar is caught stealing, his ear is notched.  That's hardly a moral endorsement.

If, by tarn strike, you mean the practice of encouraging a young tarnsman to attempt to capture a woman from another city, that is not theft since she is not yet property.  Nor would the woman's family or the Warriors of the woman's city agree that such behavior was in any way positive as evidenced by the fact that the young Warrior is very likely to be killed if he is caught.

I do not, in any way, feel that the majority of Goreans, either those described in the books or those who live here on Earth, think that stealing is moral behavior.

I wish you well,
Zeb

(in reply to Trevelyan)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Gorean Moral Values - 4/18/2008 10:14:36 PM   
sextoygirlNY


Posts: 194
Joined: 7/25/2007
From: Long Island, NY
Status: offline 		going to accept the fact that a girl is mistaken and by error used a qualifying statement of "all the time" to make an untrue post. Forgetting the word all the time, while keeping Gorean standards...allow a girl to introduce a few questions of Gorean morality if she may....

As one who identifies as Gorean----
-How many times have you given back change from a clerk who gave you too much?
-How many times have you realized a cashier forgot to ring up something yet you walked out the door?
-How many times have you asked to borrow a pen and simply slip it in your pocket?
-How many times have you found a wallet on the street with cash in it, and some id, and decided not to give it back?

Just small examples, and one can probably go on all night...but as we all lie, there are times stealing is done as well....
And out of curiosity.....do you really keep your "domiciles" unlocked?" then again depends on the area you live....i know i cant.
wishes you well,
have a wonderful evening
melanie

_____________________________

Don't Dream It, Be It!

Do not ask how to live, but instead proceed to do so.

"Do i have a choice?" Of course you do, but it would please me if you said "on it"


(in reply to ZebRarius)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Gorean Moral Values - 4/18/2008 10:54:09 PM   
Maahsatti


Posts: 2579
Joined: 8/5/2006
Status: offline 		greetings melanie,

I am a Christian woman and have had no problem intergrating the Gorean philos, morality and standards into my life.
I feel they compliment each other quite well.
I have returned money when a cashier has given me back too much change. every time it happens I return it. if a cashier misses an item in my carriage, which happens pretty frequently, specially when the item/s are in the lower cage area, I remind them to scan it, or if I do not notice it till I have gone, even if I get all the way home, I still turn back and return the item/s along with the reciept and pay for it.
If I accidently pocket a pen or some such item, I will return it, if I catch it...but honestly, if I do not realize it right away or till I do laundry,etc..Then I let it go, Im not a freakin  Saint..lol and neither is anyone else . I do however do my best to live with decent morals and try to set a good example. but I like everyone else  is not perfect.
If I find a wallet I will either hand it in to the store I found it in, or call the person it belongs to, via, reading their ID, if found on the street I will pass it in to a police station and let them find the owner.
Now, if I were to find a bag of cash on the side of the road..(wow, I wish)...lol
I would turn it into a police station, or I would put an add in the paper and leave out certain info, in order to know when people called to claim it. they were telling the truth.
If no one coul or did claim it. I would then keep it.
Or if the police did not have anyone come in to claim the money, I believe the policy is to then hand it over to the person who turned it in, if the person so wishes it., not exactly sure on that policy.
As for your referance to turning the other cheek, well Jesus did not imply, that we should allow ourselves to be abused, taken advantage of or walked all over. What he was saying was, ( and of course this is based on individual circumstances and intent)
That we do not need to immediately turn to violance and retaliation to resolve a bad situation, that we could offer reason and tolerance first to difuse a possible bad situation. Sort of like saying in lay terms...Ok pal, this one, I will over look, as maybe there is something going on with you and your life, that has caused you to behave like this. so I will let this slide, and offer to our issue a more mature and reasonable way to resolve it.but next time, it's on...*chuckles* at least that is how I have always viewed the intent Jesus had with that statement and course of action.
We here on earth, as individual human beings and IMO as spiritual beings, have been given, by our Heavenly Father, Free Will. to live our lives as best we see fit, to.
He offers us his wisdoms and demonstrates his ways for us to learn and take notice of. It is then our choice whether to take his advice and live by his examples.
I see no contradiction to this way of life against Gorean way of life, as we live it and apply it on earth.

Mistress Maahsatti

< Message edited by Maahsatti -- 4/18/2008 10:57:48 PM >

_____________________________

Gorean women, whether slave or Free,know, that their simple presence, brings joy to men,and I cannot think but that this pleases them.
Outlaw of Gor, pg 54

(in reply to sextoygirlNY)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Gorean Moral Values - 4/19/2008 12:50:22 AM   
ZebRarius


Posts: 88
Joined: 3/17/2008
Status: offline 		melanie,

You may not introduce a few questions.  I'm quite comfortable with my personal level of morality and I don't feel a need to answer any such questions.  We are not discussing me, we are discussing Gorean morality.

Next, *I* don't leave my doors unlocked, but the Goreans in the books usually do.  Either I wasn't clear or you weren't paying attention.  The Gorean culture described in the books is the pattern we start with for living our own lives.

Lastly, *we* do not all lie.  That is another sweeping generalization.  Perhaps you lie on a regular basis.  I have lied, but I don't make a habit of it.  I cannot speak for anyone else and neither should you.

I wish you well,
Zeb

(in reply to sextoygirlNY)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Gorean Moral Values - 4/19/2008 3:31:07 AM   
Ars


Posts: 37
Joined: 3/19/2008
Status: offline 		Greetings

I have not seen in the books or what I have learned about Gorean lifestyle that living by Christian morality would be wrong. There is nothing in Gorean morality that say one can not be kind, can not turn the other cheek. And in fact things like God helps he who helps himself is right up, to put it that way, the Gorean alley. The way I see it Gorean morals that value strength, value standing ones ground, value independence might not be accepted by many Christean, but Christian morals should have no problems being accepted among Goreans.

I wish you well

(in reply to kisshou)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Gorean Moral Values - 4/19/2008 5:30:02 AM   
kisshou


Posts: 2425
Joined: 2/11/2005
Status: offline 		Greetings,

thank you so much to everyone who has responded so far, it has taught me so much about Gor and about myself. It made me realize that I am an idealist and by Gor (in the books) having thieves and having drug addicts , it was not living up to my ideal. I wonder why the Priest Kings allowed certain things but not others.

I had always seen Caste as being a noble thing to be a part of but maybe it is more like a professional trade association.

The whole tarn strike sounds contradictory like it is encouraged and good if you go out and abduct a women from another city , but it is bad and wrong if it happens to a FW from your own city. Does that make it both good and bad?

I was also wondering if retaliation is considered a good Gorean moral or a bad Gorean moral?

thanks again and I hope to hear more people respond it is very educational

well wishes
kisshou

(in reply to Ars)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Gorean Moral Values - 4/19/2008 6:17:29 AM   
Ars


Posts: 37
Joined: 3/19/2008
Status: offline 		Greetings

quote:

I had always seen Caste as being a noble thing to be a part of but maybe it is more like a professional trade association.


In a way it is both. I remember how my grandfather looked at his profession. He was a tool maker. There was such pride in his eyes as he spoke of it, even if he had wanted to be an engineer, and was always bitter that his rich father, a master tailor, had not let him take further education, he was very proud of his profession. Few pepole to day have the pride in what they do, they have taken a job, and will do what they have to to get paid. But it is not the same fire in their eyes about their work. In the Gor book it is mentioned that even e member of the lowest cast are proud of their profession, see it's importance in society and will do their best. That is old style work morality, where being part of a profession was a noble thing. A thing to be proud of.

quote:

The whole tarn strike sounds contradictory like it is encouraged and good if you go out and abduct a women from another city , but it is bad and wrong if it happens to a FW from your own city. Does that make it both good and bad?


In Viking society this sort of thing was common. A Viking would steal a women from a nearby town, this was a good thing as it gave new influx of blood and prevented inbreeding. As for the morality of it. Gorean morality is a bit us/them, so our town, our society that is home and one do not steal from ones own home, stealing from another home however, that is both a way to prove our superiority and bravery, bring a new influx of blood for our stock, let our young men get training and are generally good for our home, and therefore good. When our benefit vs their benefit come up, our benefit always go first. And if you look at history only very rich societies have afforded to think any differently than that. Gorean philosophy is very much about seeing the world as it is, harsh and unforgiving, where one have to do what one have to do to have yourself and your home survive.

quote:

I was also wondering if retaliation is considered a good Gorean moral or a bad Gorean moral?


In the books, retaliation is quite accepted.

I wish you well

(in reply to kisshou)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Gorean Moral Values - 4/19/2008 6:22:34 AM   
ZebRarius


Posts: 88
Joined: 3/17/2008
Status: offline
quote:

It made me realize that I am an idealist and by Gor (in the books) having thieves and having drug addicts , it was not living up to my ideal. I wonder why the Priest Kings allowed certain things but not others.


Did somebody mention drug addicts?  I know of one example in the books, and he kicked his habit.  I also know of one example of a Gorean who smoked, does that mean the entire culture is now branded by you as smokers?

There are no thieves and drug addicts in your culture?  Yet you probably know many moral people.

The Priest-Kings are a race of powerful beings; they are not gods.  They do not care much what the humans do to each other as long as they don't use forbidden technology.

I do not see how people can so easily judge the Gorean culture when it seems like they have so little knowledge of it.

A tarn strike is a the method by which the bird takes game in nature.  Trained for war, it is a method of attack.  What we are discussing is the practice of young Warriors traveling to another city and attempting to capture a slave.  What has not been mentioned, as yet, is the practice of certain young women who purposely walk the high bridges wishing to be taken slave.  Perhaps that changes the whole morality somewhat.

It may for a few, but I think many have already pronounced judgment.

Zeb

(in reply to kisshou)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Gorean Moral Values - 4/19/2008 7:43:16 AM   
Luther6


Posts: 244
Joined: 4/25/2007
Status: offline 		As to thievery on Gor:

  Thievery is rare on Gor, except in the city of Port Kar.  (Nomads, p.85).   Ear notching, as a penalty for a first offense of thievery, occurs everywhere except in Port Kar.  (Nomads, p.85 & Hunters, p.304).  But in Port Kar, you can kill a male thief or enslave a female one, if you catch them within an Ahn of the theft. (Hunters, p.304).  I do not recall any passage in the books though indicating Goreans usually leave their home doors unlocked. 
   
    “The average man of this world would no more think of stealing a slave within his own city, or a host city, one which has extended the courtesy of its walls, than he would of any other act of illicit and dishonorable brigandage.” (Witness, p.497)  That quote certainly indicates the low regard most Goreans have for thievery. 

Luther 

_____________________________

“The Goreans have very different notions of morality from those of Earth.”
(Marauders of Gor, p.7)

(in reply to ZebRarius)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Gorean Moral Values - 4/19/2008 7:57:07 AM   
Luther6


Posts: 244
Joined: 4/25/2007
Status: offline 		Does Gorean morality conflict with Christian morality?  That is surely a potentially volatile question as religion is involved.  In other discussions I have participated on about this subject, emotions often seem to get involved and the discussion really goes nowhere.  And it is doubtful that anyone who takes a position on the question is going to change that position based on such a discussion.  Part of the issue centers on differing definitions of "master" and "slave" morality.  How you define those terms will directly impact your position on the initial question.

Now, the section in Marauders of Gor that discusses master/slave morality generally paraphrases Nietzsche words about morality.  Thus, much then depends on how much of Nietzsche's position on morality you see within Gorean morality.  For example, by Nietzsche's definitions, Christianity would be a "slave" morality" and thus incompatabile with a Gorean master morality.  Someone who choose not to see as much correlation to Nietzsche though might try to avoid Nietzsche's definitions in that regard.  As another example, Christian morality has a dichotomy of good vs evil.  Nietzsche, like the ancient Greeks though, relies instead on a dichotomy of good vs bad.  "Evil" is seen as a theological construct and there is a strong argument that such does not belong in Gorean morality.

In the end, it all comes down to how you define a number of terms.   



_____________________________

“The Goreans have very different notions of morality from those of Earth.”
(Marauders of Gor, p.7)

(in reply to Luther6)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Gorean Moral Values - 4/19/2008 8:07:12 AM   
ZebRarius


Posts: 88
Joined: 3/17/2008
Status: offline
quote:

I do not recall any passage in the books though indicating Goreans usually leave their home doors unlocked.


Shame on you Quotemeister.  Check Assassins where they discuss the various uses of signature knots.  That's the section I'm thinking of, although I'm admittedly working from memory.

Z

(in reply to Luther6)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Gorean Moral Values - 4/19/2008 8:24:07 AM   
Ars


Posts: 37
Joined: 3/19/2008
Status: offline 		Greetings.

If I do not remember my Nietzsche wrong. Slave morality is based on fear, one first define what is bad, and then what is good in opposition. Kindness, submission, acceptance all this is part of slave morality, witch is the morality of the many, the pheasants in society. But Master morality defines good and bad after what is good for the individual. Kindness and care might be good, or it might not, depending on the person's opinion and position. Self dependence, pride, intelligence and so on are seen as good, while acceptance and submission is seen as weakness. And weakness are bad.

I wish you well

(in reply to Luther6)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Gorean Moral Values - 4/19/2008 8:52:22 AM   
MarcusofAr


Posts: 532
Joined: 3/12/2008
Status: offline
quote:

I do not recall any passage in the books though indicating Goreans usually leave their home doors unlocked.


quote:

Check Assassins where they discuss the various uses of signature knots.


You're both right; and both wrong.

The passage in question makes it clear that Goreans have an inordinate fondness for locks and locking things up. Merchants, it is implied, lock up their goods. So the threat of thievery obviously exists, whether or not the practice is widespread or common. Scarring, dismembering and reduction to slavery having a suitably deterring effect, one supposes.

The door which Tarl secures using his signature knot is a "compartment" door, or an apartment door-- not an external one. It has no external lock, though we are told most such doors do.

It can be secured from the inside only with a stout set of wooden bars.

It is fitted with a pair of holes which enable one to externally tie down the latch from the outside with a cord, such as Tarl uses.

But-- "most doors in the city of Tor" are said to be such. With, one presumes, an interior bar but no external lock.

I wish you well,

_Marcus_


(in reply to ZebRarius)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Gorean Moral Values - 4/19/2008 9:06:19 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7329
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings melanie,


quote:

ORIGINAL: sextoygirlNY

going to accept the fact that a girl is mistaken and by error used a qualifying statement of "all the time" to make an untrue post. Forgetting the word all the time, while keeping Gorean standards...allow a girl to introduce a few questions of Gorean morality if she may....

As one who identifies as Gorean----
-How many times have you given back change from a clerk who gave you too much?


If I notice it there, then 100%, after that it depends on how far away and the amount.
quote:


-How many times have you realized a cashier forgot to ring up something yet you walked out the door?


Just had this happen at home depot recently, and when I stopped by there yesterday I mentioned it and was told to not worry about it.
quote:


-How many times have you asked to borrow a pen and simply slip it in your pocket?


You equate this to theft? That is fucking ridiculous. If you actively thought "I will steal this pen" then it is theft, but usually it is just a unconscious habit.
quote:


-How many times have you found a wallet on the street with cash in it, and some id, and decided not to give it back?


Never. The two times it occured was at a store, and I brought it to the attention of the manager, told them I counted the money and looked at the contents, this tends to keep the other person honest as well.
quote:


Just small examples, and one can probably go on all night...but as we all lie, there are times stealing is done as well....
And out of curiosity.....do you really keep your "domiciles" unlocked?" then again depends on the area you live....i know i cant.
wishes you well,
have a wonderful evening
melanie


You can broaden that statement to say "we all justify improper and immoral behavior at times." The problem is if we continually do that, and not try to learn and better ourselves.

What was the point of this anyway?

Live well,
Orion

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


(in reply to sextoygirlNY)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Gorean Moral Values - 4/19/2008 9:14:44 AM   
ZebRarius


Posts: 88
Joined: 3/17/2008
Status: offline 		Thanks Marcus.

Like I said, I didn't have the reference handy and was working from memory.

What is clear, however, is that although thievery exists on Gor, the Goreans are no more fond of it than we are.  It is therefore false to say that it happens "all the time."  It does happen, but Goreans do not consider it moral.

Zeb

(in reply to MarcusofAr)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Gorean Moral Values - 4/19/2008 9:55:02 AM   
sextoygirlNY


Posts: 194
Joined: 7/25/2007
From: Long Island, NY
Status: offline 		Thank you Master Orion,

for a girl who is mistaken, there must really have been no point to her argument at all.
Thank you for taking the time to answer the questions, and point out the rediculous nature of how those examples can be taken as stealing.

wishes you well,
melanie

_____________________________

Don't Dream It, Be It!

Do not ask how to live, but instead proceed to do so.

"Do i have a choice?" Of course you do, but it would please me if you said "on it"


(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Gorean Moral Values - 4/19/2008 10:48:53 AM   
kisshou


Posts: 2425
Joined: 2/11/2005
Status: offline 		Greetings ,

Master Zeb's last post made me realize where I am confused in my thinking. I thought because there was a caste of something that meant that Goreans thought it was good in a moral sense.

If I sound like I have pronounced judgement there is nothing further from the truth , I could not pronounce judgment because I am still trying to learn.

Can I conclude that having Gorean morals has nothing to do with if you steal or don't steal , do or don't do drugs, live completely honorably or not , but something different?

well wishes
kisshou





(in reply to ZebRarius)
Profile   Post #: 20
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