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The 17th Aphorism of the Code of the Builders


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The 17th Aphorism of the Code of the Builders - 10/13/2005 9:24:18 AM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline 		With your estimate goes your reputation.

No, you won't find that aphorism in the Gor books. In fact, you won't find any part of the code of the Builders in the Gor books. What you will find is the assertion that ethics, and honor, to a Gorean, are strongly related to the codes of ones caste. I am a Builder. The pithy aphorism above is the 17th aphorism of my code. My ethics, and my honor, are very closely tied to upholding my code (among other things).

In my profession (as a Builder) I am required to give estimates regularly to my clients. Because I have a code, and I know and uphold my code, I will not give an estimate in haste or based on too little information that is likely to be innacurate. I will not give an estimate that is unrealistically optimistic to get a job, or because I am being pressured to meet someone's expectation. I will not give an estimate that is overly greedy because I know that my client doesn't know any better. Why? Because I am a Builder, and I know my codes.

I am consulting with a development team right now, and the project manager came to me recently and said that she needed to shorten her development plan by 4 months because she knew that the client would be unhappy with her estimates, even though she was sure that her estimates were right. I convinced her that "fudging" her estimates just to make them happy (for now) was a bad idea. In a small way, I was teaching her to be more Gorean. I was teaching her to be a Builder.

If you call yourself Gorean, do you have a code? What are some examples of living by your code? If you do not have one, why not?

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 10/13/2005 9:47:13 AM >

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RE: The 17th Aphorism of the Code of the Builders - 10/13/2005 9:33:12 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10836
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Status: offline 		What are your first 16 aphorisms?

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RE: The 17th Aphorism of the Code of the Builders - 10/13/2005 9:53:09 AM   
JustaTop


Posts: 511
Joined: 10/5/2005
Status: offline 		Being realistic just makes comon sense. (Is that a code too?)

I do find it interesting that you identify as a lower caste-most I have run across in this actually seem to all want to be warriors or scribes-maybe an occasional physician. and of course,the legions of ubiquitous Ubar wannabes.

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RE: The 17th Aphorism of the Code of the Builders - 10/13/2005 3:19:40 PM   
Leonidas


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quote:

Being realistic just makes comon sense. (Is that a code too?)


Yes, I'd imagine that it would just seem like common sense to someone who isn't a Builder. There are times in the life of a Builder, though, when a job is on the line, or your estimates are being challenged, or you see a sheep that you can fleece, when there can be important ethical questions around estimating well and honestly. In other words, it's not always easy to follow that particular code.

quote:

I do find it interesting that you identify as a lower caste-most I have run across in this actually seem to all want to be warriors or scribes-maybe an occasional physician. and of course,the legions of ubiquitous Ubar wannabes.


I identify as what I am. The notion of Caste, Caste Pride, and Caste Codes are of no value if they have nothing to do with your day-to-day life. Not that it matters, but the caste of Builders is a high caste (along with Initiates, Scribes, Physicians, and Warriors). It's a caste that would include not just construction folks, but also architects, designers, programmers, and engineers. Anyone involved with building things.



< Message edited by Leonidas -- 10/13/2005 4:17:50 PM >

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RE: The 17th Aphorism of the Code of the Builders - 10/13/2005 4:25:32 PM   
pinkpleasures


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quote:

If you call yourself Gorean, do you have a code? What are some examples of living by your code? If you do not have one, why not?

Leonidas


i do not identify with Gor (or even have that much curiosity about it) but OF COURSE i have a moral code...as a professional and as a person. It would be difficult to find someone without any morals; and they are called sociopaths.

pinkpleasures

< Message edited by pinkpleasures -- 10/13/2005 4:26:02 PM >

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RE: The 17th Aphorism of the Code of the Builders - 10/13/2005 11:29:24 PM   
MistressDREAD


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Status: offline 		actuallly pinkpleasures most sociopaths have their own set of morals they live by as well that could be said to be if not equal more so integral or honorable to them then the standards that society lives by today.

Im a witness~




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RE: The 17th Aphorism of the Code of the Builders - 10/14/2005 1:20:02 AM   
Lexii


Posts: 7
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Status: offline 		My "life code" comes from a different set of books. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." However, with the morals of todays world even that doesn't seem to be enough because all too often people will screw you over and not be a bit surprised if they get screwed over as well.

So, to take it one step further I have another life code which is represented by my tattoo - a shooting star. Typically people remember where they've seen a shooting star and it often makes them smile. I want to be thought of in the same way. That each person I meet is enriched, even in a small way, by the encounter we share.

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RE: The 17th Aphorism of the Code of the Builders - 10/14/2005 5:26:52 AM   
Leonidas


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quote:

i do not identify with Gor (or even have that much curiosity about it) but OF COURSE i have a moral code...as a professional and as a person. It would be difficult to find someone without any morals; and they are called sociopaths.


Thank you for your reply. Having "morals" is something a little different. A Gorean Caste code is a code that is written down somewhere, and that you adhere to as a matter of honor. It's not suprising that you wouldn't have a caste code. Its a foreign concept to most folks, other than Goreans, and it's not even all that common among folks who call themselves Gorean. Other (non-Gorean) thinkers on ethics also recommend having a code. They're sometimes referred to as a "personal manifesto" or a "personal mission statement".

I think that there is a huge grey area between living by an honor code and being a sociopath. I know lots of folks who have fudged estimates for personal gain or to make someone happy in the short-run, just to use my example. While I don't approve of the behavior, labeling those who do it sociopaths would probably be a little over the top.

This is one of those areas where you can't really compare BDSM to Gor. People ask all the time for concrete examples of how being a Gorean is anything other than being a BDSMer. Here's one, but as you can see from the lack of interest in this thread, nobody really wants to know, since it has nothing to do with sex, whips, or chains. The people who ask those kinds of questions usually only want to prove that there is no difference.


< Message edited by Leonidas -- 10/14/2005 5:32:43 AM >

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RE: The 17th Aphorism of the Code of the Builders - 10/14/2005 5:34:44 AM   
Leonidas


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quote:

My "life code" comes from a different set of books. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." However, with the morals of todays world even that doesn't seem to be enough because all too often people will screw you over and not be a bit surprised if they get screwed over as well.


Honor is its own reward. It doesn't matter if someone else doesn't adhere to your code. What matters is whether you do, and even then, it really only matters to you.

_____________________________

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Leonidas

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RE: The 17th Aphorism of the Code of the Builders - 10/14/2005 6:50:30 AM   
starshineowned


Posts: 1551
Joined: 4/19/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Greetings..~smiles~

[They're sometimes referred to as a "personal manifesto" or a "personal mission statement". ]

If am taking this corretly Master Leonidas, then the Builders Code to which you adhere is personally drawn up by you?..Instead of an across the board standarized Code for all Goreans who are of the Builder Caste?

Also if one worked for the city in the water dept. what caste would they most likely fall under?

thankyou in advance

starshine
Happy slave of Master Delvin

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RE: The 17th Aphorism of the Code of the Builders - 10/14/2005 7:20:40 AM   
Leonidas


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quote:

If am taking this corretly Master Leonidas, then the Builders Code to which you adhere is personally drawn up by you?..Instead of an across the board standarized Code for all Goreans who are of the Builder Caste?


Yes, mine is drawn up by me. As I said in the OP, the caste codes of the Builders aren't really defined in the books, nor are the codes of any other caste. I once met a man who said that he lived by the codes of the Merchant caste as defined in the books. Only trouble is, there aren't any.

Anyone who worked in my field who looked at my codes would probably immediately recognize the ethical issues involved with doing the kind of work that we do. If there were enough of us, we might agree to share a code between us. It would be outstanding to work with men with whom I shared a caste code, but it's not likely to happen soon.

quote:

Also if one worked for the city in the water dept. what caste would they most likely fall under?


Depends on what they did. If they were a clerk in the water department, they'd be a Scribe. If they designed treatment plants, they'd be a Builder, like me. If they dug up streets and replaced pipes for a living, it would be hard for me to say. Probably a Caste not specifically named in the books (Pipe Fitters, maybe?). I don't see any problem with defining a caste that isn't named in the books if it would be useful in defining your code. The importing thing, from the point of view of living as a Gorean, is having a code, and upholding it, even when doing so might not seem to be the most advantageous thing to you at the moment.

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 10/14/2005 7:22:37 AM >

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Leonidas

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RE: The 17th Aphorism of the Code of the Builders - 10/14/2005 8:15:55 AM   
DesertRat


Posts: 2774
Joined: 11/29/2004
From: NM/USA
Status: offline 		When I was a bike mechanic I never gave lowball estimates. Some of my competitors did, but it didn't hurt my business. From me you got a realistic and accurate estimate that included worst-case scenarios. I do the same as an archaeologist--realistic assessments that include worst case possibilities. Lowballing is pretty much standard procedure in this racket, but I have managed to pursue my career with reputation and honor intact. Was I a Gorean bike mechanic? Am I a Gorean archaeologist? Nah....

Sure, I conduct myself in an honorable way, but that is not unique to Goreans. It might be fun to say these values fit into some kind of caste or professional code. Indeed, my present profession gives lip service to a code of ethics. The proof is in the doing, though, so I tend to my own shop and do the best I can with each person I come into contact with.

I must admit, though, that the idea of being part of something greater than myself, a system or code, does have its appeal. An ideal to strive for. I do like that.

~edited to remove a brainfade-induced redundancy.~

Bob

< Message edited by DesertRat -- 10/14/2005 11:14:16 AM >

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RE: The 17th Aphorism of the Code of the Builders - 10/14/2005 11:07:30 AM   
JustaTop


Posts: 511
Joined: 10/5/2005
Status: offline 		I don't think it is so much a "whips and chains" mentality, as they simply don't see how a particular ethical code is uniquely gorean,Leonidas..

It can be very easy to try to tie practicality to a code. Such as not screwing over a customer in business-even if they were perfectly happy, not knowing you had. That comes down more to a matter of personal boundaries and conscience.

Now a sociopath can come up with a thousand reasons that it is "right' to screw someone over-and that is the common denominator of such. They give themselves "reasons", rather than adhere to something that may not always serve thier best interests 100 %,in the short term.

But this is an impractical code,and it doesn't serve the individual's long term interests as well. So to my way of thinking,it is not so much adherence to a code-as to maintaining a realistic connection to reality.

< Message edited by JustaTop -- 10/14/2005 11:12:16 AM >

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RE: The 17th Aphorism of the Code of the Builders - 10/14/2005 12:23:46 PM   
Angrylibrarian


Posts: 214
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline 		the scribes caste is voicing a possible objection, web developers and programmers are builders? why arent they are scribes? Implemention of written code is a scribes activity, its communication and implementation of communication its often the implementation of mathematics through written code. Please clarify how programmers are builders. technicians are builders. The IT side is physical building. Engineers are builders when they construct something physical. Es verdad?

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RE: The 17th Aphorism of the Code of the Builders - 10/14/2005 6:41:22 PM   
kisshou


Posts: 2425
Joined: 2/11/2005
Status: offline 		Greetings Master Leonidas,

the Owner and you share a profession in common. I do not know if this is considered part of the code but I do know that the Owner never makes a promise that he can not keep. He considers making a promise an absolute and it is not something he pledges lightly.

what has always been on interest to me is that on Gor it was rare to change caste and here people seem to equate caste with profession. I read in a study where people change careers 5 times in a lifetime on average (careers not jobs). I wonder how this affects adapting this philosophy to life on earth.

If you changed careers would you change castes?

well wishes
kiss

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RE: The 17th Aphorism of the Code of the Builders - 10/14/2005 7:14:35 PM   
Leonidas


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quote:

what has always been on interest to me is that on Gor it was rare to change caste and here people seem to equate caste with profession. I read in a study where people change careers 5 times in a lifetime on average (careers not jobs). I wonder how this affects adapting this philosophy to life on earth.


Caste had to do with vocation in the books too. In the fictional world of the books, people were just more likely to carry on the trade of their fathers. I can really only speak to the effect having a code has had on me. I think I'd be far less likely to change professions than most folks that I know, and I'm probably far more likely to talk about what I do to my sons and daughter, and, possibly, pass my code along.

quote:

If you changed careers would you change castes?


If my codes no longer served in my new vocation, I think I'd have to. I did change careers (twice) before I started identifying as a Gorean. I think the likelihood of me doing so again is remote. Such is caste pride.



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RE: The 17th Aphorism of the Code of the Builders - 10/14/2005 8:38:10 PM   
lisaSea


Posts: 340
Joined: 8/27/2005
Status: offline 		Greetings Masters, Mistresses and slaves..

I am not attempting to start another myriad of finger pointing and my way vs. your way posts...but in an effort to understand something, a question came to mind.

There are caste systems through out history, Greece,India, North Korea and the ever popular Dark Ages. Lots and lots of websites discuss the rise, downfall and mechanics of each, I would think this is where Dr. Lange gathered his information, from past history. If this is the case, then are the castes truly gorean? Or..are they Greek, Indian, etc., ?

Respectfully, how do they tie in? Dr. Lange didn't invent them just for his series of books, he simply used what had already been done. So, an honest builder, would be an honest builder...but what makes him a gorean caste? Stating that one is a gorean man, would that alone make him part of a caste system that in actuality, didn't exist?

I am seeking honest answers, so please I beg that all who see this as nothing but a chance to start trouble, go elsewhere.

lisa{Sea's}





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RE: The 17th Aphorism of the Code of the Builders - 10/14/2005 9:09:39 PM   
Leonidas


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quote:

There are caste systems through out history, Greece,India, North Korea and the ever popular Dark Ages. Lots and lots of websites discuss the rise, downfall and mechanics of each, I would think this is where Dr. Lange gathered his information, from past history. If this is the case, then are the castes truly gorean? Or..are they Greek, Indian, etc., ?


From that point of view, is there anything that is uniquely Gorean, in your opinion? If not, why identify as Gorean at all? Just about anything that you can name in the Gor books (other than the sci-fi elements) has some historical source. The Gorean caste system most closely resembles the guild system. It doesn't much resemble the Indian caste system at all.

quote:

Respectfully, how do they tie in?


For you, they don't. You are a slave, and so have no need to either understand or uphold an honor code. For a Gorean free man, its central, and essential. Without a code, honor (in the Gorean sense) starts to get pretty subjective and flimsy. If you take these things away, what differentiates a Gorean man from any other man? The fact that he asserts his right to enslave women?

quote:

Dr. Lange didn't invent them just for his series of books, he simply used what had already been done. So, an honest builder, would be an honest builder...but what makes him a gorean caste?


Well, Dr. Lange had a kind of prototype in mind when he described Goreans. One of the things that he said about Gorean men is that much of their ethics were contained a code of their caste (their vocation). So, in other words, a Gorean man sees life through the lense of what he does for a living. His identity, his sense of honor, and his ethics are all closely tied to it. What makes an honest builder a Builder as Norman described them? He knows his caste code, and he lives by it. It is a living, breathing part of what he is.

quote:

Stating that one is a gorean man, would that alone make him part of a caste system that in actuality, didn't exist?


Part of what makes him a Gorean man is that intimate relationship between what he does and who he is. Does it matter that, perhaps, nobody knows, or upholds, his code, other than him? No, not really. What matters is that he has a code, that it does tie what he does to who he is, and that he considers upholding that code a matter of honor.

If you think about the above, lisa, what occurs to you about the character of such a man? He's someone of substance. His life is not likely to be at the mercy of transient whims that he may have, and neither are those close to him. Honor isn't just an abstract concept, it is something that he personally puts into practice daily when he staps on his boots and goes to work. He's simply a different kind of man than the kind who goes to work and tries to avoid getting caught screwing around until the weekend.

These things may not speak to you much. You are a slave girl. This is a conversation better had, frankly, among men. Even among men, what I am saying will resonate with some, and not with others. The ones for whom is does resonate have seen some of the same things in what Lange wrote that I did. All that is left is to put it into practice.

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 10/14/2005 9:17:03 PM >

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RE: The 17th Aphorism of the Code of the Builders - 10/14/2005 10:10:17 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10836
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Status: offline 		Unbelievable. She goes out of her way to ask her question as politely as possible, and your response is that she doesn't have to understand the answer because she's a slave.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas

This is a conversation better had, frankly, among men.


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RE: The 17th Aphorism of the Code of the Builders - 10/15/2005 5:47:20 AM   
kisshou


Posts: 2425
Joined: 2/11/2005
Status: offline 		Greetings LordandMaster,

even when I posted to this thread I was worried because it is not a slaves place to be involved in the affairs of men. Maybe culturally this is hard for you to understand but that is the way it is. There was so much more I was dying to ask about caste system that I didn't because if I did I know I would be beaten.

One time I started asking the Owner a bunch of questions about the code. What was in it, if it was written down, if I could read it etc. and ended up feeling the kiss of the whip, a brutal but vivid reminder of my place.

Intelligence is valued in a slave but not curiosity into the affairs of men, it is a fine line that we slaves all walk. Maybe this is another difference in BDSM and Gor but in Gor all Free instruct slaves in the manner you commented about . I have been on the receiving end of this many times.

Having this happen is not really a punishment it is just a reminder of your place(which is at the feet of strong men).

I hope my explanation was of service to you, I beg forgiveness for interrupting the thread

well wishes
kiss

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