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a slave has the final word...


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a slave has the final word... - 10/16/2005 7:30:15 AM   
krys


Posts: 611
Joined: 8/24/2005
Status: offline 		I am posting this as a separate thread as it is a separate subject from the thread in which it came up, and in no way germane to the subject being discussed there.

A kajira has the final words in any discussion... Yes, Master. This concept is well understood in the Gorean community, but often misjudged by outsiders. If a man decides that a kajira's input on a subject is inappropriate, for whatever reason, he will usually inform her so that she knows to stop before she gets herself in trouble. Things a kajira will hear are often along the lines of "This is a topic to be discussed by men." "Curiosity is not becoming in a kajira." or simply "Enough". At this point, a kajira's response is quite simple, as she has only one acceptable response... "Yes, Master."

Continuing to belabor the point, push or state that you are free to express yourself because the TOS of the site says you can is NOT an acceptable response from a kajira. Rather than being dismissive or rude or misogynistic, providing a girl with a warning that her behavior is about to step out of bounds is polite. A girl may not now how far she can question a man with whom she is unfamiliar, and it provides a very easy means of letting her know she is at the threshold. You will note that when it is done, you will not usually see kajira seeking the support of other kajira in her behavior, or the support of men in continuing to behave in a way that a man has already told them to cease, or seeking the safety blanket of the TOS to allow them to continue to behave in an unacceptable manner.

An inquisitive nature and seeking to learn are prized in a kajira, provided it is within the guidelines of what a kajira needs to learn. A kajira does not need to learn how to behave as a man, as she will not be expected to do so.

The description of this forum is “This is a forum for those who identify as Goreans and for others who wish to learn about it.” It is not described as a place to attack the way Goreans interact as being not right, or misogynistic, or rude. To learn, you have to be willing to accept that that is the way we interact, whether you like it or not.


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Krys
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RE: a slave has the final word... - 10/16/2005 10:25:45 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10836
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Since it's obvious that this thread is intended for me, I'll respond first.

This is the opening paragraph of the section guidelines:

quote:

As the description for this section states, this is a forum for the open discussion of topics pertaining to Gorean Lifestlyes. This is not the place to discuss online or real life Gorean roleplaying. All members are welcome to join in the conversation here regardless of experience or interest.


That doesn't say what a lot people on here seem to think it says: namely, that this is a forum for Goreans and that Gorean standards apply here. It says just the opposite.

I understand that not everyone in the world sees things the way I do, and I don't expect that to change. But this is a public forum. If you don't like the way the public responds, don't post to a public forum. That should be common sense. I believe it's objectionably sexist to say, in a public forum, that a certain topic should only be discussed among men. Nothing is going to change my mind about that. If you don't like hearing such comments, you can either (A) ignore me or (B) go to a Gorean website or blogspot where people can post according to Gorean protocols without outside inteference. They must exist.

Edited to add: Someone asked me privately why I bother posting to the Gorean forum at all. The answer is that each time, it's been for one of these reasons: 1, someone was insulting someone else; 2, someone was misrepresenting BDSM; 3, I was genuinely interested. (When I asked Leonidas what the first 16 aphorisms were, I was genuinely interested; he must have assumed I was just trying to challenge him.) I think you'll find that I've contributed to maybe 30% of the Gorean threads at the most. When people talk about Gorean relationships, or the Gor books, I never say anything, because I have nothing to say.

< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 10/16/2005 1:08:07 PM >

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RE: a slave has the final word... - 10/16/2005 12:02:21 PM   
pinkpleasures


Posts: 1114
Status: offline
quote:

I believe it's objectionably sexist to say, in a public forum, that a certain topic should only be discussed among men. Nothing is going to change my mind about that.

Lordandmaster


TY Lam..i appreciate what You said.

pinkpleasures

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RE: a slave has the final word... - 10/16/2005 12:04:01 PM   
krys


Posts: 611
Joined: 8/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
Since it's obvious that this thread is intended for me, I'll respond first.


This thread was not intended for you. And you seem to have misinterpreted the point.

Can you please point out where I said that Gorean standards apply to non-Goreans on this board? I didn't. I did say "It is not described as a place to attack the way Goreans interact as being not right, or misogynistic, or rude." because the Section Guidelines also state:

quote:

Keep the discussions civil and mature, and do not insult the kinks, preferences, lifestyles, etc. of others.


It also was not intended to imply that non-Goreans should behave with Gorean standards of protocol on a Gorean message board. But rather to try to explain, once again, that something that may be perceived as "rude" to others is not considered "rude" amongst Goreans.

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RE: a slave has the final word... - 10/16/2005 12:27:09 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

I understand that not everyone in the world sees things the way I do, and I don't expect that to change. But this is a public forum. If you don't like the way the public responds, don't post to a public forum. That should be common sense. I believe it's objectionably sexist to say, in a public forum, that a certain topic should only be discussed among men. Nothing is going to change my mind about that. If you don't like hearing such comments, you can either (A) ignore me or (B) go to a Gorean websites and blogspots where people can post according to Gorean protocols without outside inteference. They must exist.


LaM - I do understand what You are saying, but this is a Gorean Forum and even though it is on a non Gorean message board, one has to expect that difference.

There is nothing sexist in a slave not having a say, nor interest in the discussions of men. A gorean slave, already has accepted the protocol because its who they are. Its a bit like walking into a muslim temple in the middle of camden(sorry - I am british, bare with me...lol) - The mosque(Gorean Forum) is there in camden at the invitation of the council(CM) - and it respects the people who visit and enter and discuss' with the council on how it can exist in harmony with it. Now if I go visit the Mosque(Gorean forum) I should help with that harmony by treating them with respect and applying myself to their culture. That doesnt make me one of them, it just means I am respecting their beliefs and issues. Sure I can disagree, but to do so under their roof would be really disresepctful. Can I not take that elsewhere - on neutral ground? I enter the mosque to find out about their belief, admire the beauty and read the texts - not to try and tear down their walls to expose those outside the mosque, to the inside. When we are in their building, we cant insist on them talking or believing or acting in the same way as would expect them to when they walk down the road. And even then, its not going to work either. I hope I have made some sense?

Sexism doesnt exist in Gorean terms(as far as understand it). So to bring that onto this particular board would be pointless?

Peace and Love

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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RE: a slave has the final word... - 10/16/2005 1:34:14 PM   
ModeratorThree


Posts: 949
Status: offline
quote:

a non Gorean message board


The Gorean forums were created for the Goreans, and they are part of this community. I do not consider this a non Gorean message board at all. I consider it an alternative lifestyle community that should be accepting of each other. If you do not agree with a particular lifestyle or kink then either try to understand it by education or simply stay away from it.

Mod3

edited to say "lifestyle or kink" .

< Message edited by ModeratorThree -- 10/17/2005 10:12:07 AM >

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RE: a slave has the final word... - 10/16/2005 1:42:57 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ModeratorThree

quote:

a non Gorean message board


The Gorean forums were created for the Goreans, and they are part of this community. I do not consider this a non Gorean message board at all. I consider it an alternative lifestyle community that should be accepting of each other. If you do not agree with a particular lifestyle of kink then either try to understand it by education or simply stay away from it.

Mod3



I didnt mean that its non Gorean - I am saying that CM isnt a Gorean forum, but it has a Gorean forum in it. I understand that its an 'alternative Lifestyle' tool, which is what my post was about.

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RE: a slave has the final word... - 10/16/2005 2:32:46 PM   
starshineowned


Posts: 1551
Joined: 4/19/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Greetings..~smiles~

All in all..if you have chance to read some of the Gor books they really will help understand such situations as this. Most probably it will not change your stances on things, but it will certainly open up a better acceptance of the Goreans interacting amongst other Goreans no matter their status.

starshine
Happy slave of Master Delvin

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RE: a slave has the final word... - 10/16/2005 4:05:57 PM   
kisshou


Posts: 2425
Joined: 2/11/2005
Status: offline 		Greetings LordandMaster,

I was totally baffled by your post. So to recap

1) non Goreans find Gorean philosophy in regards to women to be "objectionably sexist"
2)This was such a problem on the other forums that no matter what subject a Gorean posted about , this was bought up thus ruining the thread and starting flame wars
3) To help rectify this situation a Gorean Forum was started

You are an intelligent, strong dominant male , is peach being submissive to you also sexist? I don't understand why non Goreans have such a problem with this. I don't want to change this thread but I would love to see a thread on this subject, either here or on any of the other forums.

sincerely
kiss

PS thank you so much krys for this post, it was wonderful, educational and insightful :)

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RE: a slave has the final word... - 10/16/2005 4:45:13 PM   
FLButtSlut


Posts: 344
Joined: 3/17/2005
Status: offline 		While I don't agree with the kajira thing, certainly as those are your beliefs you are free to practice them any way you choose. However, I'm just curious, do you belief that that particular thought applies to those females who AREN'T kajira or who don't follow the Gorean beliefs?

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RE: a slave has the final word... - 10/16/2005 5:40:35 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10836
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		The difference is that I don't think there are any topics that are "better discussed by males." Peach submits because she is submissive and needs to have that kind of relationship in order to be fulfilled. She doesn't submit because she is an inferior life form who can't handle certain topics of discussion. I also don't believe, for that matter, that it's very wise to answer a slave's question with that kind of response, because I don't believe that the knowledge that comes from asking questions will interfere with a slave's ability to serve. On the contrary, I believe it can only improve a slave's ability to serve.

Anyway, I'm answering this because you asked, even though I'm concerned that this is only going to upset some people even further. Basically, my view is this: if two (or more) people feel fulfilled by a Gorean relationship, no outsider has any business telling them that their beliefs are wrong or objectionable. From the beginning, even though I've been branded several times as prejudiced, I've said that those kinds of criticisms of Gorean relationships are biased--and sanctimonious, in that they usually come from the BDSM crowd, and those people certainly make their own unpopular relationship choices. (If you go back and read what I've written, you'll see that I've said this many times.)

But that doesn't mean I think it's OK to use Gor as a cover for sexism (any more than I think it would be OK to use it, hypothetically, as a cover for racism). To say that a certain topic is better discussed by men is a categorical statement, not a statement about Gorean relationships. It is bound to offend any non-Gorean--though personally I wasn't so much offended as taken aback by how useless the answer was. To say that you don't need to understand the answer to a question is to say that you don't need to ask the question in the first place. I don't believe answers like that can satisfy thinking human beings. Of course, I won't be surprised if Goreans disagree with me about this.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kisshou

You are an intelligent, strong dominant male , is peach being submissive to you also sexist? I don't understand why non Goreans have such a problem with this. I don't want to change this thread but I would love to see a thread on this subject, either here or on any of the other forums.


(in reply to kisshou)
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RE: a slave has the final word... - 10/16/2005 8:37:04 PM   
Delvin


Posts: 151
Joined: 8/23/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline 		As I have stated before, I have never read the books, but I do believe in the ideals and morals of this life. I still have a great deal to learn about the Gorean life and do enjoy taking in all aspects, this topic included.

There was a time when a certain group of people landed in a strange land and were outraged how they viewed their god, so, they began a mission to "change" everyones view to theirs.

As consenting adults, I would think if the Gorean Masters and slaves see this as a non-issue then perhaps we should not attempt to "change" their views but instead understand what it is Goreans see vs the "norm".

D

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RE: a slave has the final word... - 10/16/2005 8:57:08 PM   
RavenofPK


Posts: 320
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Delvin

As I have stated before, I have never read the books, but I do believe in the ideals and morals of this life. I still have a great deal to learn about the Gorean life and do enjoy taking in all aspects, this topic included.

There was a time when a certain group of people landed in a strange land and were outraged how they viewed their god, so, they began a mission to "change" everyones view to theirs.

As consenting adults, I would think if the Gorean Masters and slaves see this as a non-issue then perhaps we should not attempt to "change" their views but instead understand what it is Goreans see vs the "norm".

D



Exactly, Delvin.

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RE: a slave has the final word... - 10/17/2005 9:00:27 AM   
Angrylibrarian


Posts: 214
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline 		Im not sure what your saying. Does that mean people are going to come over here and be tolerant of what they consider to be sexist but Goreans consider normal Or what?

Goreans are one of the few parts of "the lifestyle" where people routinely tell people practicing it they are not safe sane consensual, are sexist, are nerds whatever, and everyone in 'the lifestyle' thinks thats ok. Meanwhile if anyone goes over to the "I cant get it up unless im in a furry bunny outfit doing knifeplay"" forum the same people are over there saying "hey thats cool, not my thing but I'm tolerant"

Some of the gorean community is sexist and its accepted. Is the moderator saying that people who come here need to respect that or that Goreans can't do what they want?

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RE: a slave has the final word... - 10/17/2005 10:06:08 AM   
ModeratorThree


Posts: 949
Status: offline
quote:

Is the moderator saying that people who come here need to respect that or that Goreans can't do what they want?


Don't twist my words and try to make this anything other than what was said. You can read, and so can others.

Mod3

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RE: a slave has the final word... - 10/17/2005 10:41:01 AM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Meanwhile if anyone goes over to the "I cant get it up unless im in a furry bunny outfit doing knifeplay"" forum the same people are over there saying "hey thats cool, not my thing but I'm tolerant"


It's the difference between play, and not play, that's tripping you up. Those folks think that anything is alright, as long as it's play. The problem that they often have with us is that we aren't playing.

I could stand in the middle of The Lair, put edana on her knees, tell her, and make her repeat, what a worthless little (bitch/slut/cunt/whore [insert your sexist epithets of choice here]) she is, and that she isn't worthy to lick the dogshit off the sole of a man's boots. The same folks who are complaining here would say "wow, cool humilliation scene", not "Holy fuck! what a sexist bastard you are! You should be tossed outta here.".

It's play. No harm, no foul. It's the play of which they are tolerant, because most of them wanna play too, and don't want anyone judging what happens to give them a case of the happies. When you aren't playing, tolerance dries up quickly. The PC police are just as evident as they are in the popular culture, if not moreso. Why they feel the need to comment about things said between Goreans, when the Goreans involved aren't taking issue, I don't know, and frankly, don't care. As I've said before, their posts are easy enough to overlook.

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 10/17/2005 10:49:07 AM >

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RE: a slave has the final word... - 10/17/2005 10:52:33 AM   
petwolf22


Posts: 343
Joined: 9/5/2005
Status: offline 		i certainly do try to respect those i talk to, and how Goreans choose to interact with their slaves doesn't bother me in the least, but does the same "rule of thumb" that can be applicable to kajira, that they can be told when and when not to participate in a conversation or to ask a question in the first place, does that apply to non-Gorean women, submissive or otherwise?

I haven't seen that occur in the posts that I have read, but i try to refer to people as the title they prefer (i've only ever had the request from one Gorean man), and wondering if that was the case as well.

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RE: a slave has the final word... - 10/17/2005 11:01:03 AM   
ModeratorThree


Posts: 949
Status: offline
quote:

but does the same "rule of thumb" that can be applicable to kajira, that they can be told when and when not to participate in a conversation or to ask a question in the first place, does that apply to non-Gorean women, submissive or otherwise?


I do not believe the Gorean's expect this from non Goreans, if you are in the Gor forums to learn and ask questions they try to answer and treat you with respect. The issues that are present are those that do not understand their ways putting down thier chosen way of life. Or asking the same question over and over then twisting the answer given or making it a personal attack.

It's similar to trying to understand another culture, if you do not understand a custom, ask about it. But if you do not agree you have no right to belittle thier thoughts, rituals and way of life. If it is not for you then respectfully move on to what is.

Mod3

< Message edited by ModeratorThree -- 10/17/2005 11:17:45 AM >

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RE: a slave has the final word... - 10/17/2005 11:18:50 AM   
petwolf22


Posts: 343
Joined: 9/5/2005
Status: offline 		makes sense, thanks

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RE: a slave has the final word... - 10/17/2005 11:49:11 AM   
barefootprincess


Posts: 66
Joined: 3/20/2004
Status: offline
quote:

The difference is that I don't think there are any topics that are "better discussed by males." Peach submits because she is submissive and needs to have that kind of relationship in order to be fulfilled. She doesn't submit because she is an inferior life form who can't handle certain topics of discussion. I also don't believe, for that matter, that it's very wise to answer a slave's question with that kind of response, because I don't believe that the knowledge that comes from asking questions will interfere with a slave's ability to serve. On the contrary, I believe it can only improve a slave's ability to serve.

LaM,
You have very high opinion of your slave. It has been said that a Master can only be as good as their slave(s) are. I personally know the *peach*, and have accepted, no, begged for certain training tecneques and tips from her. But she is a slave, and being as such she doesnt have the final word. That is an aspect of the SSC crowd that hangs around the fringes of the real Dominace and submisson aspect of BDSM.
As in Gorean politics, slaves do not have the last say either.
( And i dont use the word *real* to often)
barefootprincess

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