Camerius
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Joined: 9/5/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: xBullx
Tal Camerius,
Since the content of Saffleur's post did little more than agree with what I said perhaps you are attempting to imply something about my post.
As you will note my post did implied you might want to read all the books to understand what a "Gorean" sees in the philosophies. I was simply commenting on the Marshall books and do believe I said that you could read the three books about Jason's experience on Gor and in turn recognize a man that lives as a Gorean should or would. I also implied that it is possible that "Goreans" or those of Gorean like character may have always existed even before the books were written, it is simply that the books have offered us "labels" and perhaps more defined examples of Gorean character and motive.
Tal Bull,
Yes, you did do so and on that I will not disagree at all. I too have know and do know men like that who has a few or more of those traits in them have been around throughout our history, we even have them around us here at this presant day. I also agree that what the books have given us is a label and too helps us give a better tool for grasping what it is that Mr. Norman tells us thoughout the books. But that tool isn't fully functional unless you have a complete grasp of what it is, hence my comment bout haveing to read all of the books, and not just a selected few. I too find it to lower the bar to do anything less, but then that is just my own stand on it. Either do the job fully or leave it alone before you start out if the task at hand is too big for you. Too, I agree, that the Jason trilogy makes a good telling story of a weakling becoming through hardship and soulsearching Gorean, but so is the story of Tarl ( tho a bit more extended than just these three books ). Besides that those three books are set in a bigger framework, that you only get to know of if, yes, you have read the other books ( sorry for repeating myself here ).
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You know I have often been left to wonder why it is that Stephan spends so much time stating he isn't a Gorean when the fact is he thinks much like one; it seems he keeps his girl like one; and his varitations of character have only slight seperations in my perceived content. Concurrently it should be said this might also be found in the seperation of disposition between a Tuchuk and a man of Ar. Is it possible that the more Gorean you become the less you might need to struggle to seperate from those that aren't.
What Stephan, you, me or anyone else does, chooses to do or not to do, is fully up to them, same goes for calling, nameing or in other ways exercise their rights as an individual, as long as it's not breaking any laws and no lies or forms of deciet are put forth. I don't so much find that it's a question of pulling people out into the light as much as telling people that to know what this is about, they should go read the books. You can for the most part tell the difference between the ones that has read them and those that haven't, just look at most of the questions being put up here at this board. Just that should give some profound evidence of what's missing, knowledge. And yeah, we're back to the books again because of this. And yes, I too agree that it IS tirering to keep reading the same answer over and over again, to the same questions being asked from people that before asking a question, at least have done some homework.
I too could stop posting that the books should be read, and we could continue as before with me being quiet about this. If so, then fine by me, no skin of my nose here to follow that.
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My bet is Kamchak or Marlenus could give a shit about how many of the books they were participants in and what we feel identifies them as Gorean. They would simply raise a beer or paga or martini to you and your declared justifications and go back to living their lives.
They would, Bull, but then they have something we don't have. A society and structure that's supporting their ways of life and choices, but still they acknowledge customs, traditions, and other variatons of that exact structure. I do not think they would give a shit about that tho. On the other side, you'll see the same here of not giveing a shit about the books, a lot of people going "yeah, I'm Gorean so fuck that about reading those damn books". Question is, for me, what do they base that on, whith what evidence do they say so? From a few webpages read about slaves and to hold honor? Or from haveing put in the personal time of reading the books and then digested what they said? Same here, as it still seems to me a focus point of resent voices being raised about what is a Gorean and too what constitiutes one. The same answers seems to be put forth of "One that has read the source material and has emulgated them into his or her life". But I do suspect that that Marlenus and other Goreans would feel proud of partakeing in a good story about them and some of their deeds around a blazeing campfire, sharing some hot paga while enjoying the pleasure of some tasty female vulos.
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As for Stephan it might be best said that he is the tree, and if it lends him to a joyful and fulfilled end perhaps that is all that any of us should aspire for, beyond that we are left wasting our time arguing over semantics. To be honest I personally can't truthfully say who between you, he or I would be more Gorean. And is it all that important anyway? You have your life, your home, your beast and are certainly surely happy with your own existance.
Again, what one person seems fit to do or not do, is for that person alone and not of my personal concern unless it becomes a matter of such. Yes, I do have my own life, and so on, This isn't a pissing contest, if you have understood it as being such, about whom or what is more Gorean than the next one here. That's not my point at all here, it is, if you want to do so, read the damn books, get a better understanding of what this whole Gorean "thang" is based on and then go away a little bit the wiser. So, who's the Gorean of all of us? Me? You? Stephan? Neither of us? All of us? What have we got to base those choices on? And are that in the end important?
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So to help you along let me state I am a man; I identify with that which a person might find consistant with the thinking of a Gorean man. This is something very similar to what has always been stated within the profile I have on this site.
So do I Bull, so do I, but I do it a bit different because I'm not the same as you, just as you're not the same as me, from us being different. I too have stated what I am on my profile, likewise have I done this in other places, in written posts over the years, words put up at a few choice chatrooms I frequent for all of what I belive in, love, understands, dislikes et all. Does that make me more Gorean than another? Nopes, it does not, it just means I have written what I think and belives in, no more, no less, so others might get to see and read if they have any interest. Nothing more.
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Call me what you will, I would suspect that as a Gorean you would know that I value, expect and perhaps even garner respect for any man that lay claim to the freedoms that offer this choice to us both.
And that is what I will and do call you too, Bull since that is what I have come to know you as. So far you haven't given me any other reason as to see it any other way. If that should change, then it too will change of which I will call you.
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Try not to obsess so much over the quanity of the readers library, but rather more over the philosophical grasp of the subject matter. I have spoken with men that have read all the books and have yet to grasp the heart of the concepts. Hell, I've met one or two that have no clue at all.
Likewise, I too have met fellows like that, and more than one or two over my years, but we all have to start at some point when heading out this way, and that is, to get the full understanding of what this trail takes, is to read the books so we're better armed. To do less, is to do nothing. And, what is really the bad thing about urging people to go read the books? If they deem to do so, then they will, if not, well, fuck it, I will still stand as I do on this matter. And no, I really don't care what people read, tho I would say, that to fully grasp what we're talking about here, maybe not go deep down in the undercurrents of the philosophical debates that fluctuates from time to time. Instead of that, just go out into the ocean where you can still touch the sandy seabed with you're toes. But as said, we all have to start out at some point. And to me, I still think the best way is with the books...all of them.
Thanks for the exchange of thoughts, Bull.
I wish you well,
Camerius
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"To Gorean morality many Earth moralities might ask, "Why so hard?" To these Earth moralities, the Gorean ethos might ask, "Why so soft?" Marauders of Gor, pg.8
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