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RE: "Rulers," he said, "are chosen from any High Caste."


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RE: "Rulers," he said, "are chosen from ... - 5/10/2008 4:00:36 PM   
MarcusofAr


Posts: 532
Joined: 3/12/2008
Status: offline 		Is there really such a thing as a "Gorean Fundamentalist?"

How would that work? Would that be someone who says "Everything that Norman describes as being Gorean is automatically 100% better/smarter/more efficient than anything we've ever dreamed up here on boring ol' Earth?"

That would be plain dumb. Because there are a lot of things depicted in those books that really suck, and are absolutely a bad idea. Chattel slavery (foolish in our modern circumstances) among them.

Nor is Norman an apologist for all such occurances. He often qualifies his descriptions by saying "Rightly or wrongly, Goreans do this..." or "Most Goreans believe __________, whether or not that is wise." Or whatever.

So certainly Musicmystery is correct that Gor isn't presented as a utopia, so much as an alternative. The entire series is peppered with such alternatives, often seemingly intended simply to inspire rational comparison between them and what we tend to accept as "superior" in our modern Western culture. 

Gorean government, in the High Cities, seems to be a representative democracy of sorts, with delegates chosen from the five educated High Castes who vote on various issues, among them legislation and the choice of rulers.

And here in the good old USA we have a Congress and an Electoral College. Different, perhaps, but essentially the same principle.

Also, we are never told how the multiple delegates from each High Caste are chosen. They might be elected by subprefects from various neighborhoods or sections of the city population, for all we know. They might be chosen within their caste organizations based upon personal factors like wisdom and strength of character. Who knows?

How did it work in Greece and Rome? The landed Citizenry voted while the women, children, the poor, and those who owned no land had no vote.

Why would those without a vote in ancient Athens tolerate that?

Why would 95% of the known world tolerate the divine right of Kings for 1,000 years?

Who knows? If they feel it works, and that their best interests are being represented, then one supposes they would be fairly cool with it.

Let's face it-- if the King is a good, benevolent King, and wars are few, and the harvest is good, then his subjects tend to be happy for the most part.

Plus, any Gorean who refuses to be ruled by his High Council and Administrator can always enter into voluntary exile, and become an outlaw. There's nothing that compels him to stay within his City walls.

Just as any modern citizen can expatriate himself and settle elsewhere. Again-- same basic principle.

If the rulers are just, then they will tend to rule justly. If those ruled are unhappy, they can protest or leave.

I think Norman was more concerned with eliminating the wholesale stampede by a huge majority of the population in pursuit of a few, highly-specialized, high profile professions. Hence his explanation of the Gorean caste system.

I wish you well,

_Marcus_

(in reply to ZebRarius)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: "Rulers," he said, "are chosen from ... - 5/10/2008 4:49:01 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 37427
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		I like your words, _Marcus_

But permit me to have the smallest of disagreable argument here....

quote:


I think Norman was more concerned with eliminating the wholesale stampede by a huge majority of the population in pursuit of a few, highly-specialized, high profile professions. Hence his explanation of the Gorean caste system.

I wish you well,

_Marcus_


I don't think Norman was concerned with anything, he spoke in pretty worldly and realistic terms when painting this fence.

I coulda probably been a hell of a lot more than I was; am.... I coulda been a president, a doctor, a captain of industry----

I am not sitting in the corner playing with my shit mind you.......I am having a pretty good run as it goes, you see; I am a computer programmer (and had a specialty in hooking comuters and telephones together; collections, telefona Mexico, NYNEX, telemarketing, and so on.  Traveled all over the country as a goto guy for our organization, (very flat and very small) but a powerhouse in the bubble of that time----even such companies as IBM had to agree to foot my bar tab (among my other expenses) or I didn't go.  Well, after 9/11 telephony AND computers took a dump...at the same time, worse than housing is doing now......

Fuckin near lost my house, my car, my land---the whole shitoree---only a year or so ago that I actually climbed outta that hole, and am ahead again......I poured cement, (didnt always get paid), did woodticking (didnt always get paid) and cut machine parts (oh, for fucking dumb and boring for me)....

Throughout my life I have been a stockboy, a carsalesman, an insurance salesman, in the military, a----------well; and so on....

Some choices mine (many of 'em; good or bad) some choices somebody elses; some choices were play it were it lay in the collective chaos, and that got me where I am today...

I think thats true for everyone in life, I don't care if you are Slobbovian, Andromedan, Gorean, Palestinian, or Roman.

The nature/nurture argument in a different cowling.  I think that it can't be split like that so readily, nature or nurture, it is some chaotic pottage of both.

While (as Springsteen sings) Poor men want to be rich, rich men want to be kings, and a king ain't satisfied till he rules everything...........and we can wax long and elegant about prolifigate freedoms and voluptuous opportunity.........there is always kinks in the wire.....................

Of course, the alternative to that is getting your air mail delivered by gophers in stiffyville.......

Human condition, I say.

Ron Melby


added:

DAMMIT!!!!!! I can't even post under the right profile, this should be NumberSix....

People will get sick and dizzy and backwards and bite themselves if they see Hup the Fool so serious, for so long.


< Message edited by mnottertail -- 5/10/2008 4:51:55 PM >

_____________________________

Kam Fong as Chin Ho

For in the final analysis, our most basic common link, is that we all inhabit this small planet, we all breathe the same air, we all cherish our children's futures, and we are all mortal. JFK



(in reply to MarcusofAr)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: "Rulers," he said, "are chosen from ... - 5/10/2008 5:30:02 PM   
MarcusofAr


Posts: 532
Joined: 3/12/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I don't think Norman was concerned with anything, he spoke in pretty worldly and realistic terms when painting this fence.


Agreed.

Rather, I suspect he wished to make a statement, via the Gorean Caste System, against the tendency of capitalist society to encourage a huge majority of the population to ignore their inherent talents to pursue a few, highly-specialized, high profile professions. He says as much during the series.

I wish you well,

_Marcus_



(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: "Rulers," he said, "are chosen from ... - 5/10/2008 5:34:23 PM   
NumberSix


Posts: 1371
Joined: 12/30/2006
Status: offline 		Tal MarcusofAr,

So, there is no viable disagreement then, only the choice of words you used in a sentence in a much larger post and me taking them out of the context you meant them in.

All is right with the world, then.

Ron Melby 

_____________________________

"Who are you?"
"The new Number Two."
"Who is Number One?"
"You are Number Six.".
"I am not a number — I am a free man!"

Be seeing you...

(in reply to MarcusofAr)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: "Rulers," he said, "are chosen from ... - 5/10/2008 6:10:53 PM   
Koa


Posts: 282
Joined: 7/27/2005
Status: offline 		Tal Trevelyan,

Let me put myself in the mind of a free man on Gor.

I am a Merchant in a large city, selling the goods, wares and trades from outlining towns or villages.  Then I buy goods from the city and take them back to those villages and sell those items there.  And the cycle repeats.  Now I will watch and listen for what is going on in area of politics, for war and peace could drastically change the way I do business.  I don't know much about politics or much of how it works.  The men and women of the high castes are schooled much more in that kind of thing, then myself.  They have the knowledge of the workings of the system, and they know what is best for the city.  For should a peasant come to rule the city will come to rune.  So why take the chance of a peasant voting on someone and causing the city to come to rune.  I would not want to be the one to blame for that.  It is best to let the people who are more learned for that sort of thing, but I will keep my ears open.

I hope this has helped.

Koa Bosk,
the Merchant.

< Message edited by Koa -- 5/10/2008 6:13:19 PM >

_____________________________

Lo Koa Bosk

...but to take truth for granted is not to know it. Truth not won is not possessed. We are not entitled to truths for which we have not fought.
(Marauders, p.7)

(in reply to ZebRarius)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: "Rulers," he said, "are chosen from ... - 5/11/2008 10:29:59 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 16522
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Is there really such a thing as a "Gorean Fundamentalist?" How would that work? Would that be someone who says "Everything that Norman describes as being Gorean is automatically 100% better/smarter/more efficient than anything we've ever dreamed up here on boring ol' Earth?" That would be plain dumb.


Agreed.

But the answer to your first question is, unfortunately, yes.

I'll leave the other answers to the fundamentalists.

Tim

_____________________________

Yes, I still update my blog--thanks to all who asked!
http://writingtrue.blogspot.com
Gorean FAQ Threads

(in reply to MarcusofAr)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: "Rulers," he said, "are chosen from ... - 5/11/2008 5:40:30 PM   
xBullx


Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		-fast reply-

I think it might be fair to say that if I had found myself with a nice stablizer shot in the ass and my character placed where it would best be suited. I certainly would have distinctive scars upon my face, a bosk cart for my possessions, the sky for my roof, the wind for my song and shimmering grasses for my carpet. While I follow this discussions direction I don't think I so much fancy the assorted measures, that others seem to. It seems that with the core of the philosophy itself lies the home for..........

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: "Rulers," he said, "are chosen from ... - 5/11/2008 6:42:55 PM   
MarcusofAr


Posts: 532
Joined: 3/12/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

While I follow this discussions direction I don't think I so much fancy the assorted measures, that others seem to.


What assorted measures?

I wish you well,

_Marcus_


(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: "Rulers," he said, "are chosen from ... - 5/12/2008 7:58:26 AM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline 		Tal Trevelyan,

quote:

Why do Lower Caste free Goreans accept this?


I regret not getting to this one sooner.  It's mostly because of this:

...the brown robes of the Administrator of a City, the humblest robes in the city...
 
To lead and govern is to serve one's polis according to one's abilities and aptitudes.  To plow a field and haul a crop to market is too.  To our way of thinking the pride of a man in his ability to do either should be equal, and so the administrator does not envy the Peasant his deep knowledge of soil, sun, and water, and the peasant does not envy the administrator his deep knowledge and understanding of the intricate details of how to guide the city to survival and prosperity.

It is no different where you and I live, my friend.  The low castes here have the right to vote, but on whom they have the opportunity to vote is very much determined by the unseen will of the leadership of the various political factions and fininancial backers long before the ballots are written.  When the low castes vote, their vote is almost invariably cast according to party lines and party platforms that are defined by someone else.  The low castes are given a choice, but it is a choice carefully crafted to be within acceptable boundaries whichever way they choose.

That probably is as it should be.  Even if the low castes had constant contact with a man his ability to govern and lead might still be mysterious until he was actually given the opportunity, and the fact is, they don't.  The low castes simply do not have deep knowledge of what it takes any more than those of high caste understand what it takes to, say, bowl.

One other thing I will say is that there is a difference between the ability to govern and lead and the ability to govern and lead this society.  Leaders are chosen from among us, almost without exception, who have been deeply educated in the principals that underly this society in our ivy covered institutions that are dedicated to provide that kind of indroctrination.  They might be, and quite possibly would be, wholly unable to govern and lead some other society.  In other words, they are not necessessarily inherantly better leaders and governers, they just drank the right flavor of koolaid from the silver cup.

The other reason is this:

In this hut, even had he been a lowly man or beggar, he, because of the presence in it of his Home Stone, was Ubar. A palace without a Home Stone is but a hovel; a hovel which contains a Home Stone is a palace.
 
We, each of us, as free men, govern and lead in that place which matters to us most.  The further the place from that center, the less a man of low caste will know of it in detail, and how it ought to be governed and lead.  The best he may do is to fiercely defend his own domain from encroachment by those who know it less, and would presume to dictate how it ought to be governed and lead anyway.

It is a fine question that you posed, my friend.

I wish you well.

_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to Trevelyan)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: "Rulers," he said, "are chosen from ... - 5/12/2008 8:40:45 AM   
xBullx


Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		Tal Marcus,

I suppose my reference was to the standards of separation. In other words those things that separate men by their caste; while I might at times be inclined to state I am (was) of the Warriors, I’m just not sure that structure system suits my nature best. I don’t find anything wrong with the caste system in general; I just have a draw to a lifestyle concurrent with the Tuchuk or other nomadic types as seen in the books.

In an example I don’t favor seniority as a measuring stick simply by the time in service aspect, and as it would stand I’m not fond of predetermining a man’s career field or leadership aptitude due to parental happenstance. I do understand that genetic disposition can better equip a man for certain activities therefore creating better builders, better woodcutters and such but it might also miss a rather gifted fellow along the way. It’s not that I think the caste system a negative so much as I prefer a set of leathers, the wind in my hair, bosk shit on my shoes, the scent of a kaiila in my nose, the sword my own, my own tools, books, medicine kit and bartering skills.

Would a caste system rob us of self reliance in all ways? Maybe not or maybe so, but as I see it the philosophies again allow us to live to our nature, those that function best within a large societal system and those that run with the pack. Nature isn’t as simple as are you free or slave. The wagons people may have connected to caste structure, to some degree and at least it was discussed, the Caste of Torturers (though mostly of another clan) and all. But I always felt for them it was more like an additional skill identifier. It is seeming that Kamchak was born to the leadership role as Potatochip the kanda hound was his father and Ubar ahead of him. I suppose I assume that the Ubar or Administrator could be Marlenus or Thurnus and career fields don't always suggest that optimum candidate.

I don’t know Marcus perhaps I’m just having trouble conveying my thoughts here. Just call me the odd man out. Hell maybe I’m of the caste of Ass Kissers and was unaware of it. On that note of intended humor my belly calls me to a late breakfast.

< Message edited by xBullx -- 5/12/2008 8:55:35 AM >

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to MarcusofAr)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: "Rulers," he said, "are chosen from ... - 5/12/2008 9:22:33 AM   
spatejak


Posts: 50
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Since he is the sone of a president and the grandson of a senator, he was certainly born into a ruling caste. Lincoln might have had a problem, though.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist

Coolness, Bush would never have made it into office there.

(in reply to Leatherist)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: "Rulers," he said, "are chosen from ... - 5/12/2008 6:04:52 PM   
MarcusofAr


Posts: 532
Joined: 3/12/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

I don’t know Marcus perhaps I’m just having trouble conveying my thoughts here.


No, I totally get it.

I have several Gorean friends-- brothers, in fact-- who identify themselves as "Tuchuk" for the same reasons you describe.

I wish you well,

_Marcus_



(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: "Rulers," he said, "are chosen from ... - 5/12/2008 9:39:48 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 6908
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Trevelyan

Why do Lower Caste free Goreans accept this?


I might pose the complementary question of why White Male Middle Class Americans accept the notion that they live in a free country, that democracy is a good thing, that you shouldn't circumcise girls, that some kinds of clothing (or lack thereof) are more appropriate than others in a given setting, and that killing is wrong?

The answer to my question is undoubtedly the short answer to yours.

Health,
al-Aswad.

< Message edited by Aswad -- 5/12/2008 9:45:11 PM >

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Trevelyan)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: "Rulers," he said, "are chosen from ... - 5/14/2008 8:11:29 PM   
Crell


Posts: 62
Joined: 3/24/2008
Status: offline 		Let us not forget that much of the books existed for story aspect as well as, or sometimes even instead of, for philosophical reasons. :-)

That said, given that there was at least some degree of caste flexibility described I have always taken the caste system in the books in two ways: Be who you are, respect who you are, and take care of your own. (Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!)

If you "are" a metal worker, if that's what you enjoy and where your aptitude lies, then do so and be proud of it.

Additionally, the castes in the books generally had a sense of camaraderie, both formal and informal, even across city-state lines. A leather worker down on his luck could often fall back on the aid of his fellow leather workers. In Assassin, a merchant asks for caste sanctuary from another merchant, even against the state. (It's denied, because the merchant in question set him up because he's the villain of the story.) In Slave Girl, it is said that there is "solidarity among the Caste of Warriors" even between warriors of cities that are at odds with each other. There is a social support aspect there as well, far more, in fact, than there seems to be from the city itself.

Myself, I have always claimed Scribe. The study, acquisition, and sharing of knowledge is simply what I do, whether I'm paid for it or not. I fortunately do get paid for it currently, as I am an open source programmer and formerly a journalist, but I would still seek to learn for its own sake and to teach for its own sake even if my day job was driving buses.

One belief I have held for a long time, and which I have found to hold true professionally, is "never trust someone who does not take personal pride in his work". Making sure your work is something that you can take personal pride in goes a long way to that. (It's not all of it, to be sure; anyone with some degree of self-respect should want to do a good job at whatever he's doing for its own sake, but the drive is stronger if it's something you do because you want to than if you have to.)

PS: Zeb, as someone who is not nor has ever been in the military and would in all likelihood suck royally at it, you have my sincere and heartfelt thanks and respect.

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: "Rulers," he said, "are chosen from ... - 5/20/2008 8:49:17 AM   
Trevelyan


Posts: 528
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Mountain View, CA
Status: offline 		Tal everyone,

Thank you everyone for your responses to my questions.  They were all very helpful in helping me understand better.  I have a couple more questions, but have not had the time for several days to pose them.

I wish you well

Trevelyan

_____________________________

"In short the differences between the men of Earth and those of Gor were almost certain to be primarily cultural, and not physiological."
Mercenaries of Gor

(in reply to Crell)
Profile   Post #: 35
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