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RE: Stairs - 6/4/2008 11:52:26 AM   
Camerius


Posts: 742
Joined: 9/5/2006
Status: offline
Maybe it's time for you, Eros, to pack up your circus tent and move on to other and more lucrative pastures for the grassing sheep.


IWYW,

  Camerius


_____________________________

"To Gorean morality many Earth moralities might ask, "Why so hard?" To these Earth moralities, the Gorean ethos might ask, "Why so soft?" Marauders of Gor, pg.8

(in reply to MasterEros)
Profile   Post #: 161
RE: Stairs - 6/4/2008 11:55:35 AM   
MarcusofAr


Posts: 532
Joined: 3/12/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterEros


quote:

Original: MarcusofAr ----If a woman wants to shed her clothing and inhibitions in front of the watchful eyes of Gorean men, they will allow it. But though they might not leap across the room with a collar and a capture loop, they will still react. They must. It is in their nature.

quote: But keep your pants on, or else you may invoke some unwanted attention, or inspire some unintended results.




Marcus:

In all seriousness take the time to reason and explain what you implied then when you spoke these words. If I am WRONG show me! Implication is a major part of language and the written word.

I am willing to listen Marcus. 


READ THE WORDS I ACTUALLY WROTE.

Then consider the following:

It is embedded in the human genome that males will react when they are exposed to traditional sexual invitation behaviors. True or False?

This genetic compulsion exists within every biological male, it having been emplaced in him through genetic evolution. He will REACT, somehow. He cannot keep from doing so. True or False?

He will be aroused, sexually, by the insistent manifestation of female sexual selection behaviors. One of which is the presentation of the female body in a suggestive manner, through sexual initiatory movements-- which are often expressed through dance. True or False?

HOW HE THEN REACTS WILL VARY.

The sum totality of his reaction might just be to mentally classify the female in question as being "slutty." Or he might initiate sexual interaction with her by talking to her and "coming on to her." He might find her unappealing, and the situation annoying. Or a thousand other relatively benign reactions.

I suppose he might also leap across the floor and tackle her in a sex-crazed delirium. But then, that would be because he was a sex-crazed attacker.

MOST MEN AREN'T.

Especially Gorean Men. We tend to be a bit more relaxed and groovy about sexuality, and not so uptight about it when it's thrust in our faces.

But we will react to it. Usually by reclassifying how we feel about that female.

"Unwanted attention" and "unintended results" might include catcalls, pushy guys coming onto the female or flirting with her in an unwanted manner, or-- being socially classified as a "slut."

In truth, I wasn't even considering "rape" when I wrote that post. I thought that would be obvious by the FACT that I was discussing how Gorean Men "classified" their women according to their choices of overt or subtle sexual behavior.

That's the whole burrito.

Keep your conclusions and assumptions to yourself, and please try to refrain from appending your own text to mine and claiming they are identical.

I suppose there's nothing to be done about lack of reading comprehension, however.

I wish you well,

_Marcus_


< Message edited by MarcusofAr -- 6/4/2008 11:58:39 AM >

(in reply to MasterEros)
Profile   Post #: 162
RE: Stairs - 6/4/2008 12:04:28 PM   
MarcusofAr


Posts: 532
Joined: 3/12/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterEros

Marcus:

My offer remains..

I am listening..

Enough said...



Gosh. That's mighty big of you.

I hope my lowly explanation was worthy, since you deign to open  your great ears and pay heed to it, your lordship.

You just spent several posts attempting to convince everyone who reads this thread that I condone rape, when I said nothing of the sort.

Take a hike, pal.


(in reply to MasterEros)
Profile   Post #: 163
RE: Stairs - 6/4/2008 12:10:51 PM   
Cherylmazana


Posts: 1151
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline 		Actually Bull I don’t say things like that when they are not true. If I wasn’t interested in what you had to say I wouldn’t have been shocked, I would have shrugged and just thought idiot.

While you may not “give a shit about me” I do read what you write and consider it. The fact that I might disagree with some of what you say is irrelevant, I am interested in people even those I disagree with.

As I said we live and learn I learned something today, the fact that you do not believe that anyone but those you know personally tells the truth about their life unless you have proof. I can offer no proof, and my word obviously isn’t enough, and on these boards for most our word is all we have. When I told my husband all he did was laugh and ask why do I care what a stranger thinks anyway, and in all honesty he has a very good point. But then you probably won’t believe that.

Have a nice day
Cheryl

(in reply to MarcusofAr)
Profile   Post #: 164
RE: Stairs - 6/4/2008 12:45:39 PM   
MarcusofAr


Posts: 532
Joined: 3/12/2008
Status: offline 		Tal, Cheryl.

Your continuing spat with Bull aside; how do you feel about my post?

(The original one, not all that "rapist" mumbo jumbo)

I mean... if this is a fight, then I guess everyone will go right on fighting.

But if it's actually a discussion that's turned into a fight, let us discuss. Yes?

I wish you well,

_Marcus_


(in reply to Cherylmazana)
Profile   Post #: 165
RE: Stairs - 6/4/2008 1:20:39 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Joined: 5/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcusofAr

No. He's saying that in order for Gorean Men to treat Gorean Free Woman with the respect traditionally granted to them, it must be understood that they will control their sexuality publicly, and not dangle it publicly before the males in their vicinity.

Interesting.  Then perhaps he shouldn't have said that the word for a woman who embraces the depths of her *femininity* (not the depth of her *sexuality*) is a kajira.

quote:

That's the deal. The Gorean Free Woman keeps her sexuality to herself and reserves its expression for her Free Companion only (or at the very least she keeps it private), and in exchange we Gorean Men show her the respect her status deserves and don't consider her as a sexual object.


Ironically enough, this is something I do currently and have always done.

Perhaps there's something to my comment that it's not sex that's the dividing line.

quote:

You can't have it both ways. I mean, you can sit behind the stone walls of a high garden and drink tea and dance naked among yourselves all you want. Because apparently, as was recently implied in this very thread, you don't wear makeup or dance sensually for the eyes of men anyway, you do that for each other and to feel good about yourselves.


You've never been to an all girls sleepover.  We get half naked to poke at our cellulite, prance around, and tell each other we're gorgeous.

And none of us have a hint of lesbian attraction.  It's a chick thing - so many women want to tear us down, at work or at play.  There's always competition; it's our friends who help us bounce back.
quote:


Whatever. I don't care. None of my fellow Gorean Men care.


And that's precicely the problem.

quote:

Howl at the moon. Erect a statue to Gaia. Cut off your right breasts and learn to shoot a bow. Whatever.


Because if you cared, you wouldn't have turned my argument into something this irrational.
quote:


But when you open that door and enter the presence of Gorean Men, we're going to decide how much of our respect we think you deserve. Period. It's going to happen. You can't stop it from happening.


That's fine.  I wouldn't expect any less from anyone.  I just question your grounds of what deserves respect.

Queen Elizabeth never married, you know.
But I highly doubt she was truly the "virgin" queen.

quote:

We don't fuck our mothers,


Well someone sure as hell did.

quote:

We respect them. In our eyes, they are Free Women.


Does that mean you don't fuck your wife either?

quote:

All women who we do fuck, or whom we want to fuck, are NOT like our mothers and sisters.


Or, apparantly, your FC.
quote:


They are something else. They are sexual beings.


And so was your mother or else you wouldn't be here.
Or do you imagine she just closed her eyes and suffered through it the Victorian way?
quote:


We therefore draw a line in our interactions with women. If you publicly stray too far onto the "fuckable" side of the line, we don't treat you or regard with the same type of respect we reserve for those who behave with more decorum.


Understood.

But what does that have to do with being free?

I own more turtlenecks than halter tops.  I don't flaunt my stuff in the street.  Never had, never will.
Have I earned your respect for that alone?

quote:


Deal with it. Or whine about it. It's not going to change.


That's not the part I'm trying to change here.
quote:


My FC is a sensual, beautiful, highly intelligent female.


But in your words, not fuckable. Because "all women we do fuck, or want to fuck, are [...] something else."

quote:

 She is also the perfect Gorean Free Woman. She instinctively knows where the line falls, and she never, ever crosses it. Her metaphorical veils remain in place until she and I are alone, in private. She controls her sexuality until the time is right, nor does she insist upon waving it in the face of every man who crosses her path.


That differs from your definition above.

However it does not differ one whit from my relationship with my Master.

quote:

I respect her, and honor her, for it.


My Master doesn't like skanky trashy girls who display everything either.
*grins*
Have you seen where I'm going with this yet?

quote:

If a woman wants to shed her clothing and inhibitions in front of the watchful eyes of Gorean men, they will allow it. But though they might not leap across the room with a collar and a capture loop, they will still react. They must. It is in their nature.


Agreed.
 
quote:

They will react by reclassifying that female, and will henceforth withhold their respect for her while bestowing upon her a whole new classification. "Fair game."


Fair game is one thing.

Slave is another entirely.

quote:

This is not about nature. It is a social mechanism based upon nature, intended to maintain certain sexual compulsions under control. We have to divide you up, in order to best deal with you. It protects you from us, and it protects us from ourselves.


I just find your dividing line a bit skewed is all.

But this does support my earlier point.  Gor is not about women.  It's about men.
And I would imagine it protects *you* from *us* as well.  No old men who get too hormonal to demand a pre-nup, and all.  Those types of girls aren't for marrying.

Convenient.

quote:

Neither I, nor Bull, can tell you what's going on in your head. You're women. We aren't.


Thank you.
quote:


We can, however, tell you what's going on in our heads. And how we will react to your behavior.


And I can tell you what's going on in my own.

quote:

You may not like it.

We don't care.


I am honestly surprised that you are married, with this comment.
I don't mean that as an insult.  It just seems that you have absolutely no regard for a female perspective, and the key to a relationship is communication.
quote:


This is a discussion about Gorean Free Women, Elisabella, and you're neither Free not Gorean.


I am far freer than you could possibly know.

It's a status irrelevant of my relationship with my Master.  It's an internal thing.

quote:

I'm a Free Gorean Man.

I've got you beat two to one.


Two to two, in my estimation.

But we seem to differ on what makes a person free.  You think loving a man makes me a slave to all men.
You think it's my personal status, not my relationshp status.
I don't.

quote:

Enough of this. This whole thread has descended into some weird pseudo-feminist screed, IMO.

Women are great! Go, Women!


Women are great. So are men.
What are you, some sort of queer?

quote:

But keep your pants on, or else you may invoke some unwanted attention, or inspire some unintended results.

I'll do the same. Fair's fair.


We agree on so much, yet fundamentally, so little.



< Message edited by Elisabella -- 6/4/2008 1:27:26 PM >

_____________________________

you're just an empty cage, girl
if you kill the bird

(in reply to MarcusofAr)
Profile   Post #: 166
RE: Stairs - 6/4/2008 1:48:40 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Joined: 5/22/2008
Status: offline 		Hi Bull,

You are right on one thing - I have quite a few books to read.  3 down, 23 to go.

I have the whole series on e-book.  I just didn't realise how bloody painful it was to the eyes to read e-books.

I still believe, however, that what seems 'simple' to you is merely a forced simplification of things.

Just like you think I'm making things overly complex.

Fortunately we aren't dating, so these things really don't matter.  You have your life and I have mine. My life does incorporate a quasi-Gorean slant, at least in all the important things.  The things that were written about freedom, and personal accountability for one's name and deeds...I like those things.

Before I even heard of Gor, I was a believer in what I considered to be the natural order.  Heterosexual relations between men and women, with men as the head of the household and women as the keepers of the house.  The difference, obviously, is that in saying that women were by nature submissive to men I didn't feel the need to differentiate between slaves and free women based on a submissive status.

I have no doubt that there are slaves, as well as free women.  The women I consider slaves are the ones who can't get dressed without buying a magazine, who never speak an opinion unless they hear three of their friends verbalise it first, who refuse to make decisions and then, when that refusal gets them in trouble, refuse to accept responsibility for creating that situation.  Among other things.

The women I consider free are the women who know who and what they are, and hone their skills so that they are capable of living their life to the fullest.  They are no less able to enjoy the company of a man than a slave, in fact I believe they would enjoy it more.  I agree that a slut mentality can be part of being a slave if it's a compensation for things - I once knew a slut who despised men as pathetic and used her sexuality to get what she wanted. She was compensating for a *lot* of things in her personal life and IMO that made her a slave to her situation, not a free woman.

I do believe public displays of sexuality are tacky. I think our culture is going downhill at top speeds and it bothers me to see a pair of wet, implanted breasts in a bikini on the cover of a newspaper in a stand that is at a child's eye level.  But I look at the motivations of the actions as well as the actions themselves, and often get a good dose of pity mixed in with the disgust.

I agree with the other thread that pity is demeaning to a person.  That's why I only pity those who have already demeaned themselves to a point of no return.

Anyway I'm kinda rambling here, just wanted to give you a clearer idea of why I think what I think.

For an analogy, imagine a size 6 girl finds the perfect pair of pants.  The ones she must have over all others.  But they are so awesome, the only ones left are a size 2 and a size 10.

She can try to starve herself to a size 2, but even then there's no guarantee her hip bones will be narrow enough to even fit. And even if they do, she will constantly be starving herself to keep herself there, not eating healthily to give her body adequate nourishment.

She can decide not to get the pants at all, sacrificing all the awesomeness of the pants for another to enjoy.

Or she can buy the size 10's, the ones that don't quite fit, and have them taken in at certain points so they flatter her shape perfectly.  So they display her as the creature she was born to be.

That's how I feel about Gor.  It's my pants, metaphorically speaking. So close. So amazingly awesome.  And yet I can't starve myself into the FW role, rejecting my natural desire to submit to my man. Nor can I put on the size 10's, the slave role, as is - they would be all droopy and I would feel like a clown.

Am I changing Gor to work for me? You bet I am.  Which is why I make no claim to be Gorean.

But it does work for me, and since coming to this board I have grown tremendously as a person.  I met a man who I adore.  I've learned new perspectives that I do in fact incorporate in my life.  I've read opinions by people I consider to be great thinkers, and have pondered their posts late at night before falling asleep, or on the walk to the train, or five thousand other places that my brain carried them along.

And I refuse to sacrifice any of that because I'm not the perfect Gorean.

That's why I'm here everyday.

You can respect me or not, you have your own standards for doing so.  Just like I have my standards for judging whether or not to respect you.  But don't you dare ask me to give up everything good about these boards and this lifestlyle because I don't agree with every last bit of it.


_____________________________

you're just an empty cage, girl
if you kill the bird

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 167
RE: Stairs - 6/4/2008 2:36:36 PM   
MarcusofAr


Posts: 532
Joined: 3/12/2008
Status: offline 		Elisabella,

Oh, COME on. All you did was prance through my post and dissect it line by line looking for bits to say something cute about. And the little digs and insults you snuck in (though I'll doubt you'd admit you intended them as such)? Reallly. I expected better of you.

What Bull was saying was that females who embrace the totality of their sexuality-- that which makes them fundamentally female-- are the ideal counterpart to the male.

It occurs to me that it only becomes an issue when Gorean terms such as "kajira" and "Free Woman" and the like are indiscriminately applied. Then the argument becomes one of semantics.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Interesting.  Then perhaps he shouldn't have said that the word for a woman who embraces the depths of her *femininity* (not the depth of her *sexuality*) is a kajira.


Maybe he used the wrong word. Or perhaps in his opinion, the kajira is the ultimate expression of the female.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Perhaps there's something to my comment that it's not sex that's the dividing line.



I take it you don't mean "sex," but rather "sexual behavior."

Who said it was? It depends upon what you're trying to divide up. I know women who are self-proclaimed Gorean Free Women whom I consider to be slaves in robes, due to their propriety of their behavior. And so-called slaves who are essentially Free Women in collars.

The dividing line is in their relationship with the Men in their lives. All will be mastered, be they male or female. We master ourselves, or someone else will come along and master us.

Careful control of sexual behavior is one way that Free Gorean Women demonstrate that they have mastered themselves.

In your case, you've submitted yourself to your own Master. He can command you to be sexually demure in public, or not. You must obey him, no matter what he commands.

Free Women are not so compelled. Unless their behavior demonstrates that they cannot control themselves. Even then, they can go a long, long, long way before their behavior changes how the Men around them respond to them. But once it does, it does. This mechanism is biologically engrained in us.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

You've never been to an all girls sleepover.  We get half naked to poke at our cellulite, prance around, and tell each other we're gorgeous.



I know you do.

Would make-up exist if there were no men in this world? Or would women's nighties be as skimpy as many of them are?

How would women define beauty, and know when to feel good about themselves regarding such things, if they were not to see themselves through the eyes, and according to the preferences, of men?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcusofAr

Whatever. I don't care. None of my fellow Gorean Men care.


And that's precisely the problem.



You misinterpret me.

I don't care because it's none of my business. Not because I don't think it's important to you or has no bearing on anything.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcusofAr

Howl at the moon. Erect a statue to Gaia. Cut off your right breasts and learn to shoot a bow. Whatever.


Because if you cared, you wouldn't have turned my argument into something this irrational.


Poor baby. Did I hurt your feelings?

My point is this-- you can do, or believe, anything you want. That is what I was trying to convey.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

I just question your grounds of what deserves respect.



Sorry. It's mostly genetic. The whole Madonna/whore dichotemy is a result of my evolutionary surival strategy. It might not always make much sense, but we're stuck with it. So we might as well get used to it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Queen Elizabeth never married, you know.
But I highly doubt she was truly the "virgin" queen.



She is publicly remembered as the Virgin Queen, though, now, isn't she?

Not the "Queen who would have lots of sex." That would be Anne Boleyn, who got her head chopped off for it (and yes, I know the charges were mostly trumped up-- but the people called her the King's Whore even before that).

If it didn't matter, then Elizabeth wouldn't have had to maintain the "virgin" charade despite the fact that she'd probably been sleeping with Leceister for years.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Does that mean you don't fuck your wife either?



Don't oversimplify. I said we "draw a line." I didn't say there weren't shades or degrees on either side of that line.

But as I said, our Mothers and Sisters are sancrosanct. We wish our wives to dwell within the same category. As long as their behavior does not stray too far into the publicly sexual, all is well. The same mechanism informs the status of the Gorean Free Woman.

The books are full of Free Woman who flirt with, and eventually go too far past, that line.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

I own more turtlenecks than halter tops.  I don't flaunt my stuff in the street.  Never had, never will.
Have I earned your respect for that alone?



Nope. There are other factors at play.

Your willingness to submit yourself absolutely to a Man's command, for instance.

Control of one's public display of sexuality is just one of the factors that combine to inspire the respect of a Gorean Man for a Free Woman.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

But in your words, not fuckable. Because "all women we do fuck, or want to fuck, are [...] something else."



Well, she IS something else. She's not my Mother or my Sister. They are the absolute, inviolable. Both of whom have sex, for the record (my sister in in her 30's). With MEN, even

Like my FC, who also has sex. She just respects certain proprieties. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

That differs from your definition above.



No, you're assuming a perfect dichotemy where one doesn't exist.

The mother/sister are the model, which is biologically instilled in my psyche as sancrosanct. I look to them as an example when I render my judgements.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

However it does not differ one whit from my relationship with my Master.



Yes it does. Whereas my FC chooses to abide by my will, she has the ability to refuse to do so. She need not defer to me in all things. She is Free, and the Gorean Men with whom she interacts instinctively treat her with respect.

Although-- maybe it doesn't. I have no idea what your "slavery" entails. I've seen little of it in my interactions here. Your relationship with Six might be identical to my own with my FC, in fact.

Not that my FC is a slave. Rather, you might not be what we Goreans call a kajirae, in which case, you might be treated as if you were for all intents a free woman of Earth. Hard to say.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

My Master doesn't like skanky trashy girls who display everything either.
*grins*
Have you seen where I'm going with this yet?



I do. And if he commands you to strip naked in front of a roomful of lusty men, you would refuse to do it?

My FC makes her own choices. A slave does not.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Fair game is one thing.

Slave is another entirely.



Slave is just a word.

Replace it with "slut."

Better?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

I just find your dividing line a bit skewed is all.



You don't seem to understand where that line falls, IMO. It only makes sense you'd find it skewed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

But this does support my earlier point.  Gor is not about women.  It's about men.
And I would imagine it protects *you* from *us* as well. 



I don't define myself according to the whims of women. I therefore need no such protection.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

I am honestly surprised that you are married, with this comment.
I don't mean that as an insult.  It just seems that you have absolutely no regard for a female perspective, and the key to a relationship is communication.


Again, with the assumptions.

I communicate just fine. So does my FC. I just don't suborn my own beliefs, opinions and wishes based upon what she demands. In fact, she demands nothing other than what I freely give.

So, if I am confronted with a group of women who opine that I should respect them for behavior which I do not find respectful, say, I simply refuse to or accept that opinion as relevant.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

I am far freer than you could possibly know.

It's a status irrelevant of my relationship with my Master.  It's an internal thing.



Okay. Hope that works out for you.

Because during this entire exchange, I've been treating you as I would treat any other free woman of Earth. I'd treat you the same if we met offline. You assert that your relationship with Six is identical to that of a Gorean Free Companionship. So, okay. You're free. Hooray for you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

But we seem to differ on what makes a person free.  You think loving a man makes me a slave to all men.



Again, incorrect. I think your loving a man makes you a woman who loves a man.

I think that placing yourself on near-equal terms with him and insisting that your own choices are more important than his makes you free.

I also think that if you drop to all fours and wriggle out of your clothes, in front of a room of lusty men, without being instructed to do so, will invariably result in your classification by those men as a horny slut.

Gorean men tend to enslave such females whenever they present themselves. They seldom place such women on the pedestal reserved for the vaunted Gorean Free Woman, however. They feel it would be a bit dishonest. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

What are you, some sort of queer?



I'd expect a lesbian like yourself to ask that question.

I wish you well,

_Marcus_

(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 168
RE: Stairs - 6/4/2008 3:03:36 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 8567
Joined: 1/12/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcusofAr

This is not about nature. It is a social mechanism based upon nature, intended to maintain certain sexual compulsions under control. We have to divide you up, in order to best deal with you. It protects you from us, and it protects us from ourselves.


I agree 100% with this and don't see that humans have any choice but to divide their gender opposites into various compartments. It is the easiest thing to do, the most expedient and, frankly, you have to start somewhere.

I do this exact same thing myself which is why I can look at Master Bulls photo here and read his words and put him into a box labeled down to Earth, nice hunk of man meat and have no qualms about admitting the physical reactions I have to men like him and at the same time I can read the words of an intellectual such as Master Aswad and be content to sit down and just listen to him without, necessarily, wanting to tear off his clothes and fuck his brains out. Then there are others who just make my skin crawl and go into the clown box and I would never give them another thought nor would they affect me physically, mentally or emotionally in any way.

Labels are quick, easy and painless for the most part .. when we get it right. Of course, getting it right isn't always easy, but still it's all subjective - one woman's man meat might very well be another women's clown just like one mans madonna might be another man's whore and a third man might see both in her and embrace both in her and then everyone is just stupid happy.



_____________________________

۩ "The mind, once expanded to the dimensions of larger ideas, never returns to its original size." ۩
~Oliver Wendell Holmes~

(in reply to MarcusofAr)
Profile   Post #: 169
RE: Stairs - 6/4/2008 3:05:06 PM   
xBullx


Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		Hello Elisabella,

. That's all I have left.................

< Message edited by xBullx -- 6/4/2008 3:07:38 PM >

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 170
RE: Stairs - 6/4/2008 3:13:22 PM   
MarcusofAr


Posts: 532
Joined: 3/12/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

I agree 100% with this and don't see that humans have any choice but to divide their gender opposites into various compartments. It is the easiest thing to do, the most expedient and, frankly, you have to start somewhere.


And in the case of the Madonna/whore complex, there are solid biological motivations behind it.

I'm reposting this below. I posted it a few days back on another thread, bit it has relevance here, I think.

------------------------repost--------------------------

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jahnaca

If you go back through the history of western society you will find that the Madonna whore complex has a very long standing tradition.


Keep going back. In fact, go back all the way.

It's biologically programmed into us. The causes of it, anyway. What you call a "complex" is just how we happen to be expressing it, in this particular century.

From an evolutionary survival standpoint, it is beneficial for us to spread our own genes over as wide an area as possible. Homo sapiens responds to this survival pressure by being as sexually promiscuous as possible.

But-- from an evolutionary survival standpoint, it is equally as important that our genes be nurtured and taken care of. To ensure this, we want our mates to stay with us, to support and help raise our mutual offspring while we go off seeking sexual congress with others behind the collective back of our current mates.

Yep. That's right. Both male and female human beings are evolutionarily predisposed to fool around on their significant others. Preferably in such a way that keeps their past mates around to contribute to the good of the household and the upbringing of the offspring.

Meanwhile, however, humans are preprogrammed with competitive survival compulsions, all the way back to the level of spermatazoa. That's right. We're already killing each other when we're only sperm. And all of our father's sperm is ganging up on anyone else's sperm and attacking it in the interuterine canal.

Because we want our own DNA to win out over the DNA of the other guy.

Plus, at the instinctual level, we don't want to feed, care for, and nurture anyone else's DNA but our own.

So what does all that mean?

It means that men want to chase young sexually attractive (fertile) women, and they also want to trust the mothers of their children not to lie about who is the real father of whom. This is tough, because women want to fool around with the biggest, strongest, smartest, most talented men in the area, to ensure their offspring have the very best combination of DNA available. Plus, pregnancy takes them out of the sexual arena for 9 months plus, so they want to make sure they don't waste a perfectly good pregnancy on some low grade DNA.

Monogamy, when it exists, is a mutual truce between a sexual couple-- a mutual agreement to support each other's children and to resist the temptation of external DNA.

That sets the stage for all of the "Madonna/Whore" nonsense. Interestingly enough, according to the Madonna/Whore analogy, Madonna (the singer) must be the perfect woman. But I digress.

Men want to run around and have sex with available women while protecting their wives and mothers from other men who also want to run around having sex with available women. But since the wives and daughters don't want to be protected, sometimes it seems wise to certain men, in certain situations, to lock their women up behind high walls and wrap them up in shapeless garments so they won't be tempted to stray, and so other men won't be tempted to stray with them. So that everyone has sex with the proper partner, and all parents wind up providing for the correct offspring.

It takes many forms. But that's why it all happens.

As we grow more "civilized" and get farther away from the survival-based biological causes of all this, it gets less important. Men expend less effort to defend their women from the prying eyes of others because the survival imperative means less to them, and no longer compels them as it once did. Laws do the work of walls and veils. External DNA identity no longer carries the "stranger" vibe it once did, or at least we no longer respond to it as viscerally as our ancestors. We quit stoning women to death for adultery, and cease castrating captured enemy warriors. We stop binding the feet of girls to cripple them, to keep them from escaping their homes. We stop mutilating female genitals to keep women from being tempted to stray from their correct mates.

Some of us do, at least. Other societies may continue to do those things, often for the same reasons they have always been done them-- control of parental resources and DNA warfare. Still others may know better, but continue to do so anyway because they believe their particular holy book tells them to.

But that's why all that happens. It's not a conspiracy, per se.

It is not unreasonable to expect human beings to continue to exhibit behaviors that are built into our genetic heritage, IMO. All talk of "freedom to be ourselves" aside. In fact, the whole Madonna/whore dichotemy is, in a very real sense, part of "being ourselves."

We may come up with less stringent ways to express that part of our nature, of course.

I wish you well,

_Marcus_


(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 171
RE: Stairs - 6/4/2008 3:25:09 PM   
ygraine


Posts: 674
Joined: 10/10/2006
Status: offline 		Hi everyone,
I hope you don't mind if I take this on a slightly different tack. 
In the books, and I think it is part of a some men's sexual desires, the girls who were taken from earth were not slutty at all. They were actually kind of frigid and stereotypical feminists, if I recall.  How many times, also, have we seen this played out in other stories? The plain jane librarian who takes down her hair and pulls of her glasses and voila! hot stuff! What about the chick in My Big Fat Greek Wedding? Same thing.  I think a man awakening a woman sexually is a desire of a lot of men.  There is also the creepy guy who just sees any woman walking down the street as a potential semen receptical but I see Gorean men as a bit more romantic than that so I will leave that out.
My point, sometimes it doesn't take anything to be perceived as a potential slut except the man thinks you might just be one.
Hmmmm....does this start a list: You might be a slut if?? Heh.
Just points to ponder.
Y


< Message edited by ygraine -- 6/4/2008 3:27:49 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 172
RE: Stairs - 6/4/2008 4:17:43 PM   
dawntreader


Posts: 3045
Joined: 11/23/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ygraine

My point, sometimes it doesn't take anything to be perceived as a potential slut except the man thinks you might just be one.
Hmmmm....does this start a list: You might be a slut if?? Heh.
Just points to ponder.
Y



Y,
This made me smile :-)

And i agree with your point above and will expand it slightly...there are some men who ellicit a more primal/sexual response from a woman regardless of how she labels the reflection in the mirror...
 
What benefit is a label if it prevents one from discovering themselves and the possibilities  for "becoming"...this is why i do not identify with any label here and begrudgingly use the label submissive. i want everything from being the dignified "lady in waiting" to the ravenous "slut in the furs"...
 
peace of the chameleon,
                j

_____________________________

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Jean Nidetch

There is a war going on for your mind...if you are thinking, you are winning~
Flobots

(in reply to ygraine)
Profile   Post #: 173
RE: Stairs - 6/4/2008 9:15:48 PM   
Kimveri


Posts: 781
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
Status: offline 		Evening, folks,

Howdy, Bull,

Firstly, let’s be very clear here. I am not speaking of sexual promiscuity, overt sexuality or even the all-too-sexually-fixated fashions popular in our world. No shimmering wet lips thanks to 8-hour glosses (With Improved Plumping Factor!), no sparkling gold ring penetrating the flesh of the navel to lure the eyes of men, no silken bra-straps sliding down a tanned shoulder revealed by the ‘spaghetti strap’ top in a retro print reminiscent of some 60’s Go-Go dancer.

Got your attention yet? ;-D

I was responding to the seeming contradiction Jahna pointed out in your recent posts. Men should fully discover & express their masculine nature but women should NOT fully discover & express their feminine nature, unless they want to be kajirae.

That is contradictory. That is unnatural. That is opposed to the oft-repeated philosophical observations Lange offered throughout those novels. This unnatural denial, repression, & puritanically-borne drivel is part of the reason women have had to beg, plead, fight & manipulate for what freedom they damned well merit, being mothers, daughters, sisters & wives of free men.

Men can fully discover & know their masculinity. They can then, under their own self-control & according to their own standards in a time & place of their own choosing, express that masculinity. Such an expression may not necessarily be a sexual display of masculinity. In fact, the lack of any sexual object should not prohibit, nor limit, the man’s expression of his natural masculinity.

You with me so far? Here’s where it gets tricky.

Women can fully discover & know their femininity. They can then, under their own self-control & according to their own standards in a time & place of their own choosing, express that femininity. Such an expression may not necessarily be a sexual display of femininity. In fact, the lack of any sexual object should not prohibit, nor limit, the woman’s expression of her natural femininity.

Does that make sense? You DO see that I am not speaking of sexuality, don’t you?

You, however, have repeatedly, & in a manner I found personally insulting, used femininity interchangeably with sexuality. You even went so far as to suggest that a woman who is fully feminine AND sexually self-aware is not capable of freedom.

I refute that, with my whole being, & in every moment of my life.

That said, I DO understand your original point regarding the degrees of femininity displayed at that dance recital & what they suggest to the discerning eye of a Gorean man (which was NOT, as you made clear, purely sexual). However, it was you who muddied the waters of discourse that arose by insisting that femininity is one & the same as sexuality. They are not.

In stating that particular truth, I have no ‘agenda’ beyond my pursuit of, & love for, the truth. I recognize there are those for whom the truth has little value. I am not one of those people.

Gor is, for me, about discovering your whole self, coming to know it wholly, & learning how, where, when & why to express all of that self in such a way that you are naturally fulfilled, & in harmony with the rest of the people above & below you in the hierarchy of nature.

If in this process you learn to take responsibility for your nature & your urges, exercise self-control & self-restraint, you are likely free. If, in this process, you find your nature & urges have brought you under the authority & will of others who exercise control over you, then you are likely not free.

Gor is NOT about the sex you can have, wish to have, or dream of having.

In closing, FWIW, it’s rare that I post as strongly as I have here without discussion of my objective with Unbuilder. Were he not in full support of my stance, I’d likely be silent. Trust me, he's an exacting editor. ;-D

I wish you well & safe travels,

~Kimveri

_____________________________

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"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 174
RE: Stairs - 6/4/2008 10:12:27 PM   
MasterEros


Posts: 213
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Camerius


Maybe it's time for you, Eros, to pack up your circus tent and move on to other and more lucrative pastures for the grassing sheep.



IWYW,

Camerius



"For a subject worked and reworked so often in novels, motion pictures, and television, American Indians are...the least understood and the most misunderstood Americans of us all."---John F. Kennedy, 1963





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(in reply to Camerius)
Profile   Post #: 175
RE: Stairs - 6/4/2008 10:24:30 PM   
MasterEros


Posts: 213
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

Hello Eros,

Put down the peace pipe...........Now slowly back away..............Careful, don't trip..................It might be best to now go and take a nap and rest your weary eyes.

Ok, I took a chance and read your post, something I had nearly all but decided to stop doing. Damn my curiousity anyway.



Bull:

We as Native Americans did not smoke a peace pipe! Sitting Bull once said that " There is no such thing as a peace pipe because there has never been peace."

The pipe is sacred to many people, and we treat it with much respect. It teaches us just as the Bible teaches those of us who are Christians.

We never put illegal narcotics into a pipe, so people can't get "high" from smoking one. We use blessed tobacco and often add other herbs, such as spearmint, red willow bark, and bearberry leaves, for a pleasant taste or aroma.

AH'O



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(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 176
RE: Stairs - 6/4/2008 10:34:03 PM   
MasterEros


Posts: 213
Status: offline 		Marcus:

I want to be very clear here, I will publically say I did NOT accuse you of anything. I simply proposed thoughts to consider. However if you " felt " differently ...I extend a geninue amends....A man must do what is right!

Every path leads toward the inner makings of each soul.

If there was a way that you and I could find some common ground on manhood I would say more.

Enough said...

AH'O

_____________________________

~ some-things are better left unsaid while some-things must be spoken ~


(in reply to MarcusofAr)
Profile   Post #: 177
RE: Stairs - 6/4/2008 10:35:58 PM   
Cherylmazana


Posts: 1151
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline 		Hi Marcus,
quote:


No. He's saying that in order for Gorean Men to treat Gorean Free Woman with the respect traditionally granted to them, it must be understood that they will control their sexuality publicly, and not dangle it publicly before the males in their vicinity.

That's the deal. The Gorean Free Woman keeps her sexuality to herself and reserves its expression for her Free Companion only (or at the very least she keeps it private), and in exchange we Gorean Men show her the respect her status deserves and don't consider her as a sexual object.


Agreed if it acts like a duck walks like a duck etc then its not a cat, if you act like a slave behave like a slave etc then you will be treated like a slave. Act like a free woman and you will be treated like one, don’t and you have changed your status forever in their minds. It’s the same with slaves, so far I have only met a very few who are slaves, most are simply modern women who call men master, which in itself brings up and interesting question, when is a woman being a Gorean free woman and when is she simply being a normal modern woman .. what’s the defining difference in a mans eyes.
quote:


But when you open that door and enter the presence of Gorean Men, we're going to decide how much of our respect we think you deserve. Period. It's going to happen. You can't stop it from happening.

Actually I think that’s true of everyone, if you are in a higher position you might get the appearance and show of respect but if you are not worth bothering about then you will never get true respect.
quote:


We therefore draw a line in our interactions with women. If you publicly stray too far onto the "fuckable" side of the line, we don't treat you or regard with the same type of respect we reserve for those who behave with more decorum.

Deal with it. Or whine about it. It's not going to change.

Again that’s true of all men, most don’t put it that bluntly though, they just think it or you get the old “I will still respect you in the morning”.
quote:


If a woman wants to shed her clothing and inhibitions in front of the watchful eyes of Gorean men, they will allow it. But though they might not leap across the room with a collar and a capture loop, they will still react. They must. It is in their nature.

They will react by reclassifying that female, and will henceforth withhold their respect for her while bestowing upon her a whole new classification. "Fair game."

This is not about nature. It is a social mechanism based upon nature, intended to maintain certain sexual compulsions under control. We have to divide you up, in order to best deal with you. It protects you from us, and it protects us from ourselves.

Again I agree, men have always divided women up into the willing the possible and the do not touch, and up until recently the willing were not the sort of woman you would want to marry.
quote:


Neither I, nor Bull, can tell you what's going on in your head. You're women. We aren't.

We can, however, tell you what's going on in our heads. And how we will react to your behavior.

You may not like it.

We don't care.

There is a cliché about men that they think about sex every so many seconds, anyone who enjoys watching people will see how men react when a good looking woman passes by. On the whole a normal intelligent man will think and imagine but won’t physically react, but they will divide you up into good girl or bad that’s what I have learned over the years.
quote:


But keep your pants on, or else you may invoke some unwanted attention, or inspire some unintended results.

I'll do the same. Fair's fair.

Dancing without any underwear in a room full of men, in fact dancing like that around any men not just Gorean is likely to get you in a lot of trouble. Act like a slut get treated like one, I mentioned before somewhere on this forum how it’s common to see women passed out drunk in a pool of vomit in the gutters some nights in our nightclub areas. Some other not so drunk man takes them home and has sex with their unresponsive body and they scream rape, half the time they can’t even remember the night so how can they say they didn’t agree in the first place?

Everyone has to take responsibility for their own actions, you dance like a slut expect to be treated like one, pass out drunk expect to be taken advantage of.

And I didn’t think you were advocating rape, reacting to how a woman acts is not raping them.

I also think there is a difference between sexuality and femininity as Kimveri said, one thing that did shock me while meeting many who call themselves slaves is how few of them try to dress nice or wear makeup. It seems to be the first comfortable thing they drag out of the closet no matter how it makes them look, shapeless and unappealing they had as much femininity as a sack of potatoes, as for sex appeal well if I didn’t find them visually appealing I have no idea how men do.

If I dressed like that I would be ashamed of myself and wonder why Phil would want to be seen in public with me. But if that’s how Gorean men expect slaves to dress then no wonder they have problems with nice clothes, hair and makeup on free women. However that might just be those I have met, not the majority all I can go on is what I have seen with my own eyes.

Cheryl




(in reply to MasterEros)
Profile   Post #: 178
RE: Stairs - 6/4/2008 10:59:42 PM   
MarcusofAr


Posts: 532
Joined: 3/12/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterEros

I want to be very clear here, I will publically say I did NOT accuse you of anything. I simply proposed thoughts to consider.



Right. You "proposed thoughts to consider" by plucking two of my sentences out of a post, pasting them together, and presenting them out of context while attaching a lot of bold-faced definitions to them concerning acts of abuse and rape.

When I protested that I myself hadn't intended my words to be misinterpreted in such a way, you tossed out some  condescending comments about how you were "a professional," implying thereby that I was "posturing" (and presumedly lying) to try to cover my ass. Along with some "banjo strumming" (I suppose) references, and capped off by a lovely accusation that I was "afraid" of women and of men who aren't afraid of women.

Yes. You were completely incorrect.

Let me try to put it in a different context:

Let us say we are at a cocktail party and I am engaged in a conversation. At some point in the conversation, I comment that the ladies in attendance should perhaps be cautious about how they dress and comport themselves, lest the men in attendance perceive such behavior in an unwanted way.

At which point, you step up, point to me, and announce to the whole room that such comments are indicative that I support rape. Then you go further by expounding that no one will tolerate such nonsense from me, and that no Gorean book will protect rapists from being arrested and sentenced to serve under female parole officers (as if their sex made any difference to the job they would do). But you present all of this in what appears to be a purposely insulting manner, as if you were lecturing a room full of simpletons.

That's essentially what you did.

When I protested that I hadn't even mentioned rape, you refused to entertain the concept that perhaps you had misinterpreted me. In fact, you went right ahead with your comments. You added MORE stuff to it, via the editing option. Then you capped it all off by explaining, in a patronizing manner, how you had decided that NOW you were "willing to listen to me."

That's what happened. Anyone who bothers to scroll up can read it all, plain as day.

I didn't appreciate it then, and I don't like it any better now.

I'm not a rapist, nor do I condone such things. Had you accepted my statements to that effect initially, much unpleasantness might have been avoided. Apart from that, I've nothing further to say to you on the subject.

I wish you well,

_Marcus_


(in reply to MasterEros)
Profile   Post #: 179
RE: Stairs - 6/4/2008 11:04:11 PM   
MasterEros


Posts: 213
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcusofAr

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterEros

I want to be very clear here, I will publically say I did NOT accuse you of anything. I simply proposed thoughts to consider.



Right. You "proposed thoughts to consider" by plucking two of my sentences out of a post, pasting them together, and presenting them out of context while attaching a lot of bold-faced definitions to them concerning acts of abuse and rape.

When I protested that I myself hadn't intended my words to be misinterpreted in such a way, you tossed out some  condescending comments about how you were "a professional," implying thereby that I was "posturing" (and presumedly lying) to try to cover my ass. Along with some "banjo strumming" (I suppose) references, and capped off by a lovely accusation that I was "afraid" of women and of men who aren't afraid of women.

Yes. You were completely incorrect.

Let me try to put it in a different context:

Let us say we are at a cocktail party and I am engaged in a conversation. At some point in the conversation, I comment that the ladies in attendance should perhaps be cautious about how they dress and comport themselves, lest the men in attendance perceive such behavior in an unwanted way.

At which point, you step up, point to me, and announce to the whole room that such comments are indicative that I support rape. Then you go further by expounding that no one will tolerate such nonsense from me, and that no Gorean book will protect rapists from being arrested and sentenced to serve under female parole officers (as if their sex made any difference to the job they would do). But you present all of this in what appears to be a purposely insulting manner, as if you were lecturing a room full of simpletons.

That's essentially what you did.

When I protested that I hadn't even mentioned rape, you refused to entertain the concept that perhaps you had misinterpreted me. In fact, you went right ahead with your comments. You added MORE stuff to it, via the editing option. Then you capped it all off by explaining, in a patronizing manner, how you had decided that NOW you were "willing to listen to me."

That's what happened. Anyone who bothers to scroll up can read it all, plain as day.

I didn't appreciate it then, and I don't like it any better now.

I'm not a rapist, nor do I condone such things. Had you accepted my statements to that effect initially, much unpleasantness might have been avoided. Apart from that, I've nothing further to say to you on the subject.

I wish you well,

_Marcus_




Marcus:

As I said:

If there was a way that you and I could find some common ground on manhood I would say more.

Enough said...

AH'O




_____________________________

~ some-things are better left unsaid while some-things must be spoken ~


(in reply to MarcusofAr)
Profile   Post #: 180
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