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RE: The Pussification of the American Male


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RE: The Pussification of the American Male - 10/26/2005 8:27:45 AM   
JustaTop


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Again I was not speaking in terms of child support.

I was speaking of a women who gets it without any-yet is capable of working.

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RE: The Pussification of the American Male - 10/26/2005 8:50:31 AM   
caitlyn


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Funny that alimony would enter into this discussion.

Back in the "good old days" when men were men and ruled the roost, almost all divorces ended up with the wife getting alimony.

These days, now that men are "pussified" by the dreaded, evil, ball crushing feminists, very few cases are awarded alimony by either party. A quick internet search gives you the information that nine states have Community property laws, and have no provision for alimony. Eight of those states exempt all assets prior to entering into the marriage. Add to this list, eleven more states that use a loose form of the community property laws for married parties that have filed joint tax returns. Add to this list, twelve states where prenuptial agreements override the states ability to award alimony.

Putting a Gorean slant on this discussion ... isn't "Gor is not fair!" a Gorean saying?

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RE: The Pussification of the American Male - 10/26/2005 11:37:26 AM   
LaMalinche


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Okay, I have two questions.

Question 1 - What are the characteristics of a pussified male?

Question 2 - Can anyone point me to a place to find demographical information on Goreans, free and slave?

Thank you for your time and I look forward to your answers.

La Malinche

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RE: The Pussification of the American Male - 10/26/2005 12:43:27 PM   
gman992


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I have to agree, and frankly I am some what disgusted at what has happened to the American male. While, I am not in favor of going back to the "good ole days" there was a time when the American male and, in my experience, a good portion of American females stood for something. Whether it was standing up against Hitler(or dare I say) Saddam, there used to be a time when Americans weren't such cry-babies. And personally I don't think that it was because of feminism. It was because from cradle to grave, Americans expect something for nothing. And I won't even mention standing up to terrorism of any kind. Now a days to even suggest that a person should make his or her own way in the world draws criticism and scorn. We have become weak because we don't want to hurt feelings, and to top it off, they have made public policy out of it--regardless whether or not it violates free speech. And what about taking responsibility for onself? Do you ever think that John Wayne would ever complain about his feelings being hurt? Or Frank Sinatra?

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RE: The Pussification of the American Male - 10/26/2005 3:19:37 PM   
DesertRat


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gman992

I have to agree, and frankly I am some what disgusted at what has happened to the American male. While, I am not in favor of going back to the "good ole days" there was a time when the American male and, in my experience, a good portion of American females stood for something. Whether it was standing up against Hitler(or dare I say) Saddam, there used to be a time when Americans weren't such cry-babies. And personally I don't think that it was because of feminism. It was because from cradle to grave, Americans expect something for nothing. And I won't even mention standing up to terrorism of any kind. Now a days to even suggest that a person should make his or her own way in the world draws criticism and scorn. We have become weak because we don't want to hurt feelings, and to top it off, they have made public policy out of it--regardless whether or not it violates free speech. And what about taking responsibility for onself? Do you ever think that John Wayne would ever complain about his feelings being hurt? Or Frank Sinatra?


I don't know if The Duke or Ol' Blue Eyes would complain, but I never saw them as role models. Also, I don't think the US has become weak as a result of being too indulgent or compassionate. If anything, this a real "eat shit and die" country, and becoming more so now. So shouldn't we be less pussified now? The real pussies should be in Canada and Europe, where they actually try to help those less fortunate and, as a result, enjoy higher standards of living.

Bob

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RE: The Pussification of the American Male - 10/26/2005 3:30:38 PM   
LaMalinche


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gman992

I have to agree, and frankly I am some what disgusted at what has happened to the American male. While, I am not in favor of going back to the "good ole days" there was a time when the American male and, in my experience, a good portion of American females stood for something. Whether it was standing up against Hitler(or dare I say) Saddam, there used to be a time when Americans weren't such cry-babies. And personally I don't think that it was because of feminism. It was because from cradle to grave, Americans expect something for nothing. And I won't even mention standing up to terrorism of any kind. Now a days to even suggest that a person should make his or her own way in the world draws criticism and scorn. We have become weak because we don't want to hurt feelings, and to top it off, they have made public policy out of it--regardless whether or not it violates free speech. And what about taking responsibility for onself? Do you ever think that John Wayne would ever complain about his feelings being hurt? Or Frank Sinatra?


Sure, the good old days when Americans really stood for something - like starting a war with Spain in order to sell newspapers or fine upstanding men like William Tweed and Justice Henry Brown. Truely wonderful times.

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RE: The Pussification of the American Male - 10/26/2005 3:49:54 PM   
Raphael


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I don't think the 'eat shit and die' attitude is masculine at all.

If anything, it's a bluff, an overcompensation typical of those that are horribly insecure at their core.

And while there was no perfect golden age, and we've been wrestling with the same demons that are destroying us now all along, there was a time when it was somewhat socially acceptable, at least, to confront and denounce them.

In terms of the percieved 'pussification' I think you can take just about any field of popular culture and compare today to fifty years ago, let alone one hundred, and see what we mean.

In the fifties, the typical TV father 'knew best.' He was strong, without being overbearing. He might be ignorant or foolish on a specific issue at a specific time, but he was anything but in general - and when he found himself out of his depth, he would always educate himself and be wise again by the end of the show. He would die to protect his wife and children, and they knew it and loved him for it, even when there was tension.

That's a stereotype, of course, but the point is that this was the 'model' - this was what we were taught we *should* be, and what men aspired towards.

The stereotype being broadcast today is different in every way. He's often as not a drunken fool. He's certainly weak-willed and weak-minded, and there's a good chance he's physically weak as well. He would never survive if it weren't for the clever, powerful woman who inexplicably puts up with him and protects him. At his best, he realises this and is a submissive clown, at his worst, he fights against this idea of his 'true nature' and becomes a criminal, a wifebeater or worse.

Now if this were one show, it wouldn't matter. It might well be a damn funny show (Homer Simpson fits the bill above, and I think the Simpsons is hilarious.) But it's not one show. Or two. Or three. It's every channel, all the time, entertainment, news, and "education," all feeding minor variations on that theme simultaneously. It's TV, it's books, magazines, and the underlying assumption behind laws and college courses and lectures... it's everywhere, and it's inescapable.

Now I, personally, I just shut that crap out. I don't buy into it, I don't patronise it, and it doesn't affect me.. directly. But I can see well enough that it's become so embedded in what's called "the national culture" that it has plenty of indirect effects. And I dread to think of trying to protect a little boy from that crap, growing up today.

>R


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RE: The Pussification of the American Male - 10/26/2005 4:33:01 PM   
Lordandmaster


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I'm impressed by the way people just say whatever comes to mind at that particular moment and ignore requests for clarification. LaMalinche announced that we should all read Foucault before responding to her; I asked what, specifically, she has in mind--and she didn't respond. Raphael announced that there are enormously powerful forces with some kind of anti-male, anti-heterosexual agenda; I asked who, specifically, constitutes these forces--and he didn't respond.

This tells me a few things about who is seriously interested in a discussion, and who is just interested in spouting off.

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RE: The Pussification of the American Male - 10/26/2005 4:38:07 PM   
pinkpleasures


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quote:

Now a days to even suggest that a person should make his or her own way in the world draws criticism and scorn.

gman992


Evidentially you missed the massive "reforms" to welfare that limit women to two years, and only if she works or has a training ptogram. i am not in favor of cradle-to-grave governmental care (ick!) but i do think one generation of women and their children have been made to pay a terrible price to try and fix a system that was poorly-designed from the get-go.

pinkpleasures


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RE: The Pussification of the American Male - 10/26/2005 4:41:39 PM   
pinkpleasures


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quote:

This tells me a few things about who is seriously interested in a discussion, and who is just interested in spouting off.

Lordandmaster


Hey; i'll discourse with You anytime Lam; i love Your comments.

pinkpleasures


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RE: The Pussification of the American Male - 10/26/2005 7:22:27 PM   
fyreredsub


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actually the states have different time limits. ga for example is 48 mo,new york is 60 mo....but the premise is the same.
they help get their children
into day care(usually the biggest barrier besides laziness),give the person a voucher for gasoline and the person is expected to find work(someone actually has a job of checking the applicants forms to make sure they didnt just put down any old company and really did apply) .
if they cant find work,they then have to 'volunteer' (where ever the state agency places you)to receeve the benefits. they soon learn a minimum wage job pays better than the 'welfare' check.
on top of it when they do get a 'real' job they get a check for that also,as well as if transportation is a problem they help them to get vehicle fixed and if uniforms or tools are needed those are bought as well.
it amazes me how many women come into my office that still have figured out a way to live off the system.
ssdi has become the new welfare program,compile it w/ section 8 housing and their utility allowance and food stamps and medicaid ......they think they have it made.

_____________________________

"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

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RE: The Pussification of the American Male - 10/26/2005 7:28:10 PM   
fyreredsub


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1.since you started the thread perhaps you should be the one to define?
2.do a goodle search

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"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

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RE: The Pussification of the American Male - 10/27/2005 6:49:01 AM   
pinkpleasures


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quote:

ssdi has become the new welfare program,compile it w/ section 8 housing and their utility allowance and food stamps and medicaid ......they think they have it made.

fyreredsub


One of the flaws in the welfare system has always been the bzyantine rules governing the agencies and recipients that leave room for manipulation by the savvy and exclude worthy applicants who do not possess such canniness. The problem will probably never be fixed. However, myself, i oppose sending new mothers to work and 6 week old babies to day care...something that goes on amoung the poor, the middle class and the wealthy (though the wealthy may opt for a nanny..which is obviously no sure-fire solution).

i favor decent, affordable (or subsidised) day care for the sake of the children...something most middle class families cannot find. Before and after school programs were most successful, in my opinion, but have been cut back by the school systems under financial stress.

As for providing medicaid to welfare-to-work mothers; the jobs they qualify are generally minimum wage without benefits...and the fewer uninsured mothers and children we have the better.

i detect a certain distaste in your post, miss; maybe i am wrong. But if you have never been poor and had to eat government cheese (and talk about welfare -- subsidies for farms are a gross manipulation of the market) you cannot know what it's like. It's so hard to feel self-worth when you cannot provide for yourself and your children as you wish...i think most mothers on welfare-to-work got screwed over in alot of ways, whilst the bureaucrats operating the system kept their jobs.

pinkpleasures


< Message edited by pinkpleasures -- 10/27/2005 9:56:16 PM >


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RE: The Pussification of the American Male - 10/27/2005 11:50:55 AM   
JonfromNC


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Interesting topic and can be taken many ways, all depending on what you mean by "pussification."

If you want to blame popular media and so forth, then take a look at what it has done to all people who watch it. By it representing "popular" societies views and therefore the correct ones, then none of us here would be having this conversation. The constant babble of, you should act this way, look this way, believe this way, works on all who have no desire to find other ways or his or her own ways. Men, women, black, white, green, gay or straight, all have been directly or indirectly influenced by these constant bits of brain washing, just some refuse to accept it and others do not want to think for themselves and with all brainwashing or programming, it takes time and repetition. This isn't something new that has been going on, this has been going on for decades and a slow process but a process that hits everyone, not just completely one specific group. Could blame the weakening of men on that but then again, you have to go back to point that the person has to be willing to accept what a box, piece of paper, or radio waves is telling them to be absolute truth.

So that all leads to the conclusion that all who blindly accept those things are effected no matter what or who they are. Women have to be sickly thin and starve. Men should look at everyone exactly the same and treat everyone exactly the same. Different races or sexual preferences should be pitied and coddled, and if not, they should sue "The man." <shrugs> You make the ultimate decision on what path you walk and you are ultimately accountable for that path, just whether or not you let someone block that path, or find a way through it.

If you want to say the "feminists" neutered men, then you have to believe that someone else held you down while they did it. If anything, women were hurt more then men with the feminist poison that is spewed by the most vocal. Meaning, that any woman who doesn't give up all sense of femininity and behave like a man, lays down with men and/or uses phallic shaped devices, has betrayed their movement. So if a woman does what she feels is right for her and doesn't fall into the role prescribed by the most vocal, and therefore correct, feminists, they are hurting woman kind and the movement, betraying their sisters. When the real woman movement is a woman making an informed choice and accepting the rewards and consequences of that choice, not being forced to do so by societies rule. Which goes same for anyone, no matter what race, gender, religion, or financial/social level. {Obviously women should make same money as a man for doing same job and so forth, since that is a given right and logical. I am talking outside the common sense boundaries.)

What all boils down to, is a person allowing someone else to rule them and decide path for them and not willing to take responsibility, which is not just a United States problem but a world wide problem. Just with the U.S. we do not have as many centuries of standards most do. U.S. is still a young country and therefore our society is not as well founded as others and therefore more easily changed. Meaning our country is young and our traditions and society is not 1000 years old and so forth, which means our little melting pot is has its foundations still settling and other still being built. Combination of the "young" age and how ours is a country of immigrants from all over, with all their own traditions and ways, makes things more easily changed for good and bad.

Which leads to the real problem I see is not really a pussification problem but a loss of pride, not only in who you are, but in your heritage and where you come from. The days of my grandfather and father are dying, where you took pride in your families history and what they did for a living. Myself, for example, very proud to be a blue collar man from a long line of blue collar men and women. I take pride in every thing I do, work or not, because it reflects not only on me but my family. I would rather do something right then do something half arsed just to satisfy the,"GIVE ME NOW!" or "At any cost" mentalities. Not everyone can be the high dollar earning folks in the world in the high rises and big fancy offices and our nation looks down now at the very folks who keep this country going. <shrugs> In U.S. being blue collar or not the power players, wealthy, or famous, is now bad thing to be ashamed of, and with shame comes loss of pride and therefore lack of caring for anything, especially who you are and where you come from.

To use book terms, not everyone can be "high" cast, there have to be peasants who form the foundations of the society. Which is why I am proud to be a "Peasant" or in modern terms, blue collar worker because that is what my father is and my fathers father was, it is my blood and I am proud of that. You want folks to "go back to the old days" and grow a pair, then teach them to be proud of where they come from, who they are, and that pride is worth more then power or money. Do that and the pussification you speak of ends, because they wouldn't give a damn about sacrificing everything, to meet some stupid preconceived status to be worth anything to themselves and others.

That is how I see things really and rather then blame society or some unseen force for all my problems, I will look at the real cause, myself and take consequences of MY failures and keep my pride intact, not falling into the Woe is me problem most seem to have. Doesn't mean I don't sometimes slip but means comes down to it, I won't point my finger at anyone or anything else for my misfortunes. Man, woman, whatever walk of life, Gor or not, you want to save the world from itself or find blame for whats wrong, then start by looking hard in the mirror and take responsibility for your own life and actions, good or bad. Enough rambling, just an interesting thread and thought I would add my own point of view to the mix.

Later


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RE: The Pussification of the American Male - 10/27/2005 12:03:53 PM   
Quivver


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Jon, or Sir Peasant....... if I had a Hat I'd take it off to you.
very well said.

Q


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RE: The Pussification of the American Male - 10/27/2005 12:21:45 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Quivver
Jon, or Sir Peasant....... if I had a Hat I'd take it off to you.
very well said.

Hands you a hate to take off...or a tiara if you prefer.

Except for the "back in my days..." chunks, that was pretty awesome.

I also have to say, what I dislike as well is the concept that "pussification" or "becoming like a female/having a pussy" is being equated to being weakened.

Now, if we want to take the concept that men aren't being true to themselves, that's one thing. But by stereotyping femininity as weak, you (general you) put both males and females in a pigeon-holed, inappropriate perspective.

Now I know in gorean culture, male submissives are not considered valuable, or good workers and servants. In bdsm culture as well, many female submissives and male doms do not value male submissives at all, though not to the extent in gorean.

But the entire issue of man becoming weakened because they "act female/take on female characteristics" is something I really dislike.

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RE: The Pussification of the American Male - 10/27/2005 4:21:20 PM   
Angrylibrarian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

I'm impressed by the way people just say whatever comes to mind at that particular moment and ignore requests for clarification. LaMalinche announced that we should all read Foucault before responding to her; I asked what, specifically, she has in mind--and she didn't respond. Raphael announced that there are enormously powerful forces with some kind of anti-male, anti-heterosexual agenda; I asked who, specifically, constitutes these forces--and he didn't respond.

This tells me a few things about who is seriously interested in a discussion, and who is just interested in spouting off.

Yeah I'd be very interested to know what we're supposed to be taking from Foucault.

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RE: The Pussification of the American Male - 10/27/2005 5:13:36 PM   
fyreredsub


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i do not care to go into my life deatils on the boards,just say been there done that.....and i improved my life considerably by hard work and getting an education.

if you lived in this state and saw the misuses of the system you would understand what i was refering to.

the whole point of the post was to say that even tho the old AFDC program has been changed to the TANF program,the only thing different is there will be no generational welfare.

i wasn't referring to the welfare to work moms and medicaid.

i referenced ssdi along w/ the other state benefits. the people now can maintain what they lost in welfare reform.

_____________________________

"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

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RE: The Pussification of the American Male - 10/27/2005 10:04:14 PM   
pinkpleasures


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That was quite moving, Sir. Especially the part about blue collar workers. i was a lawyer and you can imagine the lying, cheating, etc. i saw go on...but then my car mechanic would throw in extra repairs because i could not afford to pay full price..and i've never been cheated by a HVAC or any other tradesman.

If a Man is measured by His values and His honor, i can easily believe the blue collar worker's families have done a better job of transmitting that to their kids.

pinkpleasures


< Message edited by pinkpleasures -- 10/27/2005 10:05:26 PM >


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RE: The Pussification of the American Male - 10/27/2005 10:44:52 PM   
Leonidas


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quote:

How is this a gorean issue? I'm sure some find "pussification of males" to be great and some find it awful- same as people find bdsm play to be great and some find it awful.


It's a Gorean issue because we find it to be awful. Since you find it neither great, nor awful (obviously) it's not an issue for you. See how that works? Are you deciding in your infinite wisdom that it shouldn't be an issue for us either? You'll have to pardon us if we choose to differ. You have started more than one post in here with "this isn't a Gorean issue". It's odd to me that you feel compelled to define what is, and isn't, for us.

quote:

As well, admitting that one desires sex or love is certainly does not equate to lacking in pride.


That's a swing, and a miss. Steeerike two! The desire for sex, or love, certainly doesn't equate to lacking in pride. The lack of pride, however, can lead some to sacrifice anything that they might otherwise hold dear to obtain the same. Seems pretty obvious to me. Did you really miss it?

quote:

I also have to say, what I dislike as well is the concept that "pussification" or "becoming like a female/having a pussy" is being equated to being weakened.


Hmmm... if I woke up tomorrow and found that I'd been transformed into a woman I'd certainly feel weakened. Care to arm-wrestle? The folks that you find yourself among think, for better or worse, that the fact that I'm about 4 times as strong as you are, having been shaped by evolution for the hunt, asserting dominance, staking and defending territory, confrontation, and combat, doesn't end with my body. We think it's reasonable to assume that my brain evolved along with my body along a similar direction and is adapted for the same purposes. We also think that if, for reasons of economics or social agenda, I am conditioned to deny that, I become "pussified" (more like a woman), and in a profound way lose touch with what I am. A lacking in pride and direction (as Goreans think about it, anyway) are attendant consequences of that "pussification". It's not that being like a woman is a bad thing, unless you happen not to be a woman.

What I said early on in just a sentence or two, and what Jon expounded upon, is that nobody can surrender manhood except men themselves. If we choose to be what we are, women have absolutely no prayer of having us be otherwise. Manhood cannot be spindled, folded, or mutilated by women since being a man doesn't require the permission of women. When men whine to the contrary, they are only demonstrating the lack of pride and power in what they are that they are whining about.

quote:

But the entire issue of man becoming weakened because they "act female/take on female characteristics" is something I really dislike.


Which is probably why you don't identify as Gorean. Nobody said you had to like it. Nobody here is seeking your approval.

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 10/27/2005 11:32:06 PM >


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