RE: What is the real difference between a sub and a slave? (Full Version)

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Estring -> RE: What is the real difference between a sub and a slave? (7/24/2004 10:38:28 AM)

Lol. If she refuses to get in after digging her grave may be topping from the bottom. [:D]



SherriA -> RE: What is the real difference between a sub and a slave? (7/24/2004 10:40:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: masterjm2k4
well actually I'm trying to learn about the community and how much others define what is a sub/slave relationship and what would be abusive. I realize these might sound stupid, but I want to know what would be acceptable and what's not in the community, like for example as a community is it too much to hear a sub talk about thier master purposely break a bone in thier body kind thing


There is no One True Way, and even every community has different standards. Ultimately, why does it matter what "the community" thinks? Are you looking for acceptance? Are you trying to find out how to make yourself a pariah? I guess I just don't see where you're going with this.

The difference between submissive and slave is defined by the individuals in the relationship. You won't find an definitive answer, and if you ask 10 peole you'll likely get 11 different opinions. The same goes for questions like "what's considered going too far?"

In one local group, parties without a DM are unacceptable. All play must be monitored and approved by The Powers That Be. In a different group, also local, the only rule is that if you don't like something it's up to you to leave the area of the scene. There are no DM's and no one is going to interfere with a scene in progress because they don't approve of it. People tend to migrate to the community that best fits their personal style/preferences.

Most people consider something that intentionally sends the bottom to the hospital and requires serious medical attention (broken bones can require surgery, etc) to be unacceptable. But even that's not true across the board. I recall one very experienced couple negotiating an arm breaking scene. They were ok with it, and they were respected enough that most people didn't attempt to tell them they were "wrong" (though there was SOME uproar, of course).

The Lesbian Sex Mafia, an all women SM organization in NYC put out the following article about the difference between SM and abuse. It's only their position, not universally held (and there are things in it that I disagree with personally), but it's a good starting point. You can find it on their website at http://www.lesbiansexmafia.org then follow the links to "BDSM is NOT abuse". Ultimately, though, it comes down to personal decisions made by the people involved in the interaction.

The Difference Between SM and Abuse
A statement from Lesbian Sex Mafia (LSM)

SM:
An SM scene is a controlled situation.

ABUSE:
Abuse is an out-of-control situation.




SM:
Negotiation occurs before an SM scene to determine what will and will not happen in that scene.

ABUSE:
One person determines what will happen.




SM:
Knowledgable consent is given to the scene by all parties.

ABUSE:
No consent is asked for or given.




SM:
The "bottom" has a safeword that allows them to stop the scene at any time they need to for physical or emotional reasons.

ABUSE:
The person being abused cannot stop what is happenning.




SM:
Everyone involved in the SM scene is concerned about needs, desires, and limits of others.

ABUSE:
No concern is given to the needs, desires, and limits of the abused person.




SM:
The people in the SM scene are careful to be sure that they are not impaired by alcohol or drug use during the scene.

ABUSE:
Alcohol or drugs are often used before an episode of abuse.




SM:
After an SM scene, the people involved feel good.

ABUSE:
After an episode of abuse, the people involved feel bad.






If you have further questions regarding domestic abuse,
please call the Anti-Violence Project of NYC.
They are educated in the differences between abuse and BDSM.

AVP - 24hr hotline at 212.714.1141
West 35th St., 2nd Floor
New York, NY



stef -> RE: What is the real difference between a sub and a slave? (7/24/2004 10:56:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

Lol. If she refuses to get in after digging her grave may be topping from the bottom. [:D]


I think that would be the ultimate case of topping from the bottom.



masterjm2k4 -> RE: What is the real difference between a sub and a slave? (7/24/2004 11:46:01 AM)

Actually I was using the breaking of a bone as an example of what some, if not all, might be disgusted by. I'm not trying to do anything except learn what not to do to a sub/slave and how to prevent a sub/slave from becoming an abuse victim(through the eyes of BDSM communities)



SherriA -> RE: What is the real difference between a sub and a slave? (7/24/2004 11:57:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: masterjm2k4

Actually I was using the breaking of a bone as an example of what some, if not all, might be disgusted by. I'm not trying to do anything except learn what not to do to a sub/slave and how to prevent a sub/slave from becoming an abuse victim(through the eyes of BDSM communities)


The thing that you don't seem to be understanding is that there is NO universal standard in the "BDSM communities". You'll not find universal agreement on much of anything of substance. Ultimately, you have to do what's right for you and your partners, regardless of how anyone else does it.

I'll say it again.....go meet real people who are doing this, rather than just talking about it. Go to munches and network. Go to groups/events/cons and attend demonstrations, workshops, etc. Find people who have skills that you admire and talk to them about teaching you techniques. Watch people who seem somehow "off" to you, and try to figure out why their style isn't clicking for you, which will also teach you about your personal preferences.

Talk with and observe a variety of people in a variety of interactions. Get a feel for what works for you, and discard the rest. There is no One True Way, and anyone who professes to be able to teach you such a thing is likely someone you should avoid.



baileythorne -> RE: What is the real difference between a sub and a slave? (7/24/2004 12:07:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SherriA

The Lesbian Sex Mafia, an all women SM organization in NYC put out the following article about the difference between SM and abuse. It's only their position, not universally held (and there are things in it that I disagree with personally), but it's a good starting point. You can find it on their website at http://www.lesbiansexmafia.org then follow the links to "BDSM is NOT abuse". Ultimately, though, it comes down to personal decisions made by the people involved in the interaction.



The National Coalition for Sexual Freedom (NCSF) has also created a guideline for telling the difference between SM & abuse.

It begins:

The following Principles and Guidelines are intended to help law enforcement and social services professionals understand the difference between abusive relationships vs. consensual sadomasochism (SM). SM includes a broad and complex group of behaviors between consenting adults involving the consensual exchange of power, and the giving and receiving of intense erotic sensation and/or mental discipline.

SM includes: "intimate activities within the scope of informed consent that is freely given."

Abuse is: "Physical, sexual or emotional acts inflicted on a person without their informed and freely given consent."

for the full article:
http://www.ncsfreedom.org/library/smvsabuse.htm

--bailey



masterjm2k4 -> RE: What is the real difference between a sub and a slave? (7/24/2004 12:08:57 PM)

Ok...I get it now. I now understand there is pretty no boundaries to it(with maybe the exception of intentional death{god, I despise people who would do that to someone}).



January -> RE: What is the real difference between a sub and a slave? (7/24/2004 6:36:20 PM)

jm,

Yes there are boundaries. Just not universal ones.

If you don't mind me asking, where on earth did you hear about bdsm in the first place?

January



LadyAngelika -> RE: What is the real difference between a sub and a slave? (7/24/2004 7:00:07 PM)

You say on your profile that you'll settle for a slave, a sub or an on par relationship with a slut. Yikes.

You realise that based on the general definitions of each, there is a greater degree of effort and responsibility on your part in each circumstances, right? A slut will want so much of your attention and guidance, a sub a little more, and probably in different ways, and one who identifies as a slave, more then likely, will be higher maintenance.

For example, when a man or woman contacting me identifies as slave, I dig a bit deeper as I’m not into having a 24/7 slave. That is my choice. I don’t have the requisite time or energy to be a 24/7 Mistress. I am always Domme, but I don’t always have to be in Mistress mode, does this make sense?

And a bit of advice (I know it's unsolicited), in looking at your profile, you may want to do a little research and be open and honest about your experience to date. It seems to me, that your openness to have all sorts of experiences may be the result of you being at the beginning exploration stages. I've known 22 year olds with lots of experience, but that is not often the case.

- LA



Estring -> RE: What is the real difference between a sub and a slave? (7/24/2004 7:38:34 PM)

SherriA and Angelika have given you some good advice jm. It seems to me like you are talking about robots or aliens or something when you talk about subs and slaves. They are still women. They are still human. They respond best to honesty and respect. Work on those things before anything else.



kiki blue -> RE: What is the real difference between a sub and a slave? (7/24/2004 10:37:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: randsboy
A sub is somewhat similar to a boy, in that it has greater latitude where in to work and has the freedom to discuss a scene with the top both before and afterand offer its point of view without repercussion.


What is it you mean by 'boy', exactly? Is it similar to a bottom, or is it only males?

quote:


Whereas a slave would need to ask permission to speek before providing insite and is less likely to provide it, due to the whims of the Master.


I disagree. While certainly, in some relationships there may be no discussion of wants and needs for play, it's by no means universal. I identify most strongly as slave, and I've never had to ask for permission to speak. I may get involved with someone who wants that, but chances are, I won't. My intelligence and ability to hold a conversation, plus my ability to add insight, are good things, and not to be squandered. The person I choose to be involved with will have similar outlooks.

quote:


Both have limits, yet the slave's limits are always being push further, many times without total consent. A boy has the privilage to stop a scene. The slave is never involved with a scene as per a contract and has become a comodityto its Master for trade. A safe word in both instances have the same meaning with the twist that a slave's may only mean a pause, whereas a sub's means to stop the scene completely and review.


That depends on the relationship, the people involved, and what their negotiations entailed. I've had a stopword that meant stop right now, as per the decision of my ex. Anyone can stop a scene, how it's done depends on the dynamics.

quote:


i am a slave 24/7/365 and am a member of a leather boys group, yet have fewer rights than most of the boys, as i must obey my Master implicently and a boy can say 'no'.


That may be how your relationship works, but among those I socialise with, everyone has rights. You can't take away basic human rights, nor rights that the government of your country has given you. A submissive and slave should obey their owner, it's part of the position. But I believe they have the right to confirm orders by asking questions, and if the orders in question should do more harm than good, then it's their place to ask their owner, or to tell them no (with respect). Protecting the owner's property should be number 1 on the list, or up close, anyway.



Sinergy -> RE: What is the real difference between a sub and a slave? (7/25/2004 12:42:52 AM)

quote:

I think that would be the ultimate case of topping from the bottom.


This could be why having sex with dead people never appealed to me.

Sinergy



masterjm2k4 -> RE: What is the real difference between a sub and a slave? (7/25/2004 1:08:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

You say on your profile that you'll settle for a slave, a sub or an on par relationship with a slut. Yikes.

- LA


Um...Is that how it came out? I was trying to that I can treat them as equal or slight less since subs aren't equal or treat them like sluts if they wish..I think I'll go amend that now.



Sinergy -> RE: What is the real difference between a sub and a slave? (7/25/2004 1:11:50 AM)

quote:

Um...Is that how it came out? I was trying to that I can treat them as equal or slight less since subs aren't equal or treat them like sluts if they wish..I think I'll go amend that now.


A useful approach to dealing with it, Masterjm2k4, is to think of how you would like to be treated if you were X and then treat them that way. If that doesnt work, you could always ask some (not the ones you are chasing bdsm-wise) how they would like to be treated and then treat the ones you chase that way.

Good luck!

Sinergy



masterjm2k4 -> RE: What is the real difference between a sub and a slave? (7/25/2004 1:38:50 AM)

This is hard, but I guess getting started is the hardest part...I sense something is going to be said about that



iwillserveu -> RE: What is the real difference between a sub and a slave? (7/25/2004 5:29:52 AM)

Since this has turned into the advice for the new guy board, I'd say re do your profile with a different name. Avoid calling yourself anything that begins with "Master", "Sir", "Lord" or any overt things that scream DOM. Good Doms don't have to scream.[:)] May I recommend "Jmtokfor" or whatever.



LadyAngelika -> RE: What is the real difference between a sub and a slave? (7/25/2004 7:55:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: iwillserveu
Since this has turned into the advice for the new guy board, I'd say re do your profile with a different name. Avoid calling yourself anything that begins with "Master", "Sir", "Lord" or any overt things that scream DOM. Good Doms don't have to scream.[:)] May I recommend "Jmtokfor" or whatever.


I agree with iwill on this point. And also for the reason that you haven't earned the title Master yet. Your new description says: "Hi I'm new and I am looking for female sub or slave that I can train and recieve experience from."

I have a submissive female friend who has more then once been in a situation where she knows more then her Dom and that is usually why the relationship fails. She has tried “training” a Dom but it usually doesn’t work very well because she isn’t into training, but rather submitting. It’s good to be able to learn from one another, but ultimately, you need to start out with a base of knowledge.

You are a Dom in training I gather. You may want to do a search for other Dom/mes in your area and learn a bit from them face to face. You may have the desire deep inside of you, but you need to learn technique and hone skills. You can always discuss with people who are open to this online. There are great books such as “Screw The Roses, Send Me The Thorns” and the like which are great BDSM primers.

We’ve all been at the starting line, eager but not knowing where to go. The important thing is to be informed and not do anything we aren’t comfortable with because we think we have something to prove. Even after 12 years of playing, I am still learning new stuff. I love that aspect of it all.

- LA



Sinergy -> RE: What is the real difference between a sub and a slave? (7/25/2004 9:00:14 AM)

quote:

I agree with iwill on this point. And also for the reason that you haven't earned the title Master yet. Your new description says: "Hi I'm new and I am looking for female sub or slave that I can train and recieve experience from."


There is no recognized governing board from which you could get your Master Secret Decoder Ring. So the statement you have not earned it yet may or may not apply.

On the other hand, people who have been involved in the lifestyle, reading your
nickname will immediately make associations with it about your experience, et al.,
so when you explain that you are new to the lifestyle it begs the question "So why
does his nickname start with "Master"? Master of what exactly?" So by calling
yourself that you may have immediately given the wrong first impression.

As usual, this is just my opinion and if you add $4.00 you can get a cup of coffee
at Starbucks, but there you go.

Sinergy



LadyAngelika -> RE: What is the real difference between a sub and a slave? (7/25/2004 9:05:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

I agree with iwill on this point. And also for the reason that you haven't earned the title Master yet. Your new description says: "Hi I'm new and I am looking for female sub or slave that I can train and recieve experience from."


There is no recognized governing board from which you could get your Master Secret Decoder Ring. So the statement you have not earned it yet may or may not apply.


True. I guess it is my opinion that he hasn't earned the title.

I'll add another dollar to your little mix and perhaps we can share a double venti soy latte?

- LA



jm2k4 -> RE: What is the real difference between a sub and a slave? (7/25/2004 12:55:41 PM)

Took your advice about nick change, and I've deactived the profile for now and both of them. My question is now how do I look for local?



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