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Pushovers...or not. - 6/17/2008 10:25:23 AM

ygraine

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Joined: 10/10/2006
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Hello everyone.
I was reading a blog I often read: waiterrant.net. It is a remarkable blog that has a lot of insight into human behavior. I hope if you get a chance, you take a peek at some of his better posts. (He got a book contract and kind of lost interest in the blog). One of his recent posts was about people treating others with politeness or deference. His position is, that it comes from within. Here is a quote from his blog post of June 12, 2008:

"If you let people get away with treating you poorly, eventually everyone will do it - even nice people. Like water always seeking its own level, its human nature to treat people with the lowest amount of consideration possible before encountering resistance. I usually come across as a laid back, friendly sort of guy, so people sometimes think they can intimidate me. I used to turn the other cheek when that happened but, as I’ve gotten older, I’ve come to appreciate the truth of what Raymond Chandler meant when he described the character of his iconic detective, Phillip Marlowe. “He will take no man’s money dishonestly,” Chandler wrote, “And no man’s insolence without a due and dispassionate revenge.” Eventually word gets around that you’re not a pushover and fewer people try testing you."

So here is my question: do you think this is true? Especially for free folks: do you find as you grow in strength as a Gorean that fewer people test you? Slaves, assuming lower resistance, do you find as you grow in submission that more people test you?

I think for myself, I find my tolerance for people yanking my chain, for incompetence, and for general bullshit is shorter and shorter, but not because I am more "Gorean" but simply because I am older and I have raised my expectations some. Don't know what I will be like when I am old and feeble but right now it seems I have never been stronger, nor less likely to stand down. I have more to work on about doing that politely, but I think it is because only recently, in the past 5 years, have I learned to stand up for myself much at all.

Anyway, enough rambling. This thread is open to all and I would very much enjoy the opinions of free folks and slaves alike.
Thanks
Y

< Message edited by ygraine -- 6/17/2008 10:34:10 AM >

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RE: Pushovers...or not. - 6/17/2008 11:33:01 AM

Sylverdawn

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Dear Ygraine.. In my opinion politeness costs you nothing and the payback is priceless. I find that kindess even of the most mundane is completely unexpected today. People rarely stand up on a crowded train for someone who is older, feeble, pregnant. It amazes me as I see people of my own age ignore those who need even the smallest amount of courtsey. If my mother saw me sitting when someone needed my seat she would have clipped me about the head. I sometimes wonder who raised these people.
I suppose as a result of working in a service oriented position for so long and yes as a result of the expections my community (family, friends, church) built in me I have a low tolerance for the pablum that the service industry attempts to feed the public. I do not hesitate to ask for a new waitress, customer service clerk, cashier if I feel that I am being misunderstood or treated poorly. I call corporate if I get truly annoyed. I try hard never to raise my voice or take a tone and I have asked for written apologies from staff. I suppose I am the customer from hell.. but my dollar cost me alot to earn.. I expect that to mean something I suppose. Thank you, your welcome, have a nice day, how may I help you and mean it. When I say thank you, you did a great job and leave you a 25 or more percent tip, or call your store manager and compliment on a job well done, or the corporate head office of a hotel and say what a great helpful staff they have I mean it. Im piretty sure it doesnt have much to with living with a Gorean I think it has to do with being an effective thinking feeling human being.

Now not putting up with bullc**p in general has come with old age, maturity and self confidence that journey has had alot to do with self exploration of which Gor is a part of

Living in Hope
SD

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RE: Pushovers...or not. - 6/17/2008 11:54:57 AM

Hiskajirah

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Greetings Masters
Greetings Mistresses
Greetings imbonded ones

Greetings Mistress Ygraine

You asked "Slaves, assuming lower resistance, do you find as you grow in submission that more people test you?"

Yes Mistress, sometimes I think so. I don't get tested by the masses, but I still do by some people. I tend to be passive, defer easily and a bit too submissive at times. I also have strong sense of self in what I believe to be right or wrong. I will get tested for a reaction. I think sometimes the test is to provoke a negative or rude response or one might like pushing my buttons and wait for my "auto" submit. I think it's more difficult as a slave because I cannot openly speak my mind. For that matter Mistress, it would be difficult even in private to do so when the person on the other end is wanting agreement and I really do not agree. So I have to figure out how to be honest and truthful without displeasing the other. I could be very adament and voiceful in these testings... but then what would people think of me then? To do so would not be a discourtesy with malice in my heart, just a truthful statement or honest opinion.

Thank you Mistress for posting the question and allowing me to participate.

Please be as well as you can be

Respectfully,
~twinkle

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RE: Pushovers...or not. - 6/17/2008 12:06:13 PM

charlotteS

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Greetings Mistress Ygraine, thank you for the interesting question...

I am actually finding that the more I grow into my slavery the less of a pushover I have become. In the past I couldn't tell the diference between my desire to please everyone around me and my desire to be a kind, compassionate person that I would respect. Before it became a requirement for me to respond politely to everyone (it is Master's job to put people in their place, not mine) I had always tried to exercise courtesy whenever possible. I considered this a comendable quality and still do but am starting to learn how to stand up for myself politely instead of feeling like in order to be polite I had to allow people to walk on me.

If talking about the slave types I hold the most respect for those that stand up for themselves in a pleasing manner. When it comes to the Free it is not my place to judge but I personally enjoy being around those that are polite but only when it is coming from a place of self-accountability. For example a man who might be being mocked by a group and says "You are all bastards, your stupid opinions mean nothing to me! Carry on with your silly games of pretending to be men" and rages off in a huff would not be someone I would gravitate to be around. A different man in the same position who simply laughs, maybe makes a biting comment and walks off but continues to enjoy his day is someone who might not be considered polite by the group he just left but has managed to stand up for himself in a way that holds his bahavior to his own standards rather than those of the people around him.

Respectfully,

charlotte

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RE: Pushovers...or not. - 6/17/2008 1:29:57 PM

ElizabethAnne

Posts: 1711
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Howdy Y,

I am a pussy cat, total pushover. Just call me a door mat.

~heh~

Not buying that one? Ok, well maybe not. Actually Sylver Dawn said it very well.   I think I am more demanding, yet nicer if that makes any sense since I began studying the Gorean philosophy.    Like she said, I won't hesitate to call a corporate office, ask for a manager. And it truly irritates me a great deal to hear a cell phone call while I"m standing waiting for a sales associate.   In fact, I have been known to put it on the counter and walk out. I need very things in life THAT badly to put up with poor service.   Now I also want to add, I've been known to track a manager down to compliment great service as well.

For example, I am sure we could find cheaper insurance, BUT, our insurance agency has such outstanding customer service, we stay with them.    They have proven over and over again, service to them is #1.

However, there are stores I won't go back to because of such poor customer service.   Sad to say our local grocery store is one of them. Then I heard through the grape vine - small town rumors! - the owner is losing his house. My thought? Gee that's too bad, if they would have been nicer, maybe that wouldn't have happened. Oh well.

It's about standards, and what we expect - when we expect it. Am I more demanding than I was 15 years ago? You better believe it.

Liz

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RE: Pushovers...or not. - 6/17/2008 1:53:52 PM

Sylverdawn

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Hey Liz.. I dont think its just about what we expect as customers ... its what we expect as people. I think that people dont hold people accountable for how they interact with each other. I think thats why when you say metaphorically "Hey this is my expectation in this situation" They are taken aback by being held to a minimal standard. I think there are few communally held standards anymore. I think part of the problem is the machine I am using now. The computer allows us to disconnect from each other. We live inside our little houses and we are no longer connected to the people we live beside, we no longer are held accountable to that community that we live in. Online you can simply click a different page and you have a whole new set of people with whom you can interact with a different set of rules for interaction they dont know you and you dont know them. There is no face to face accountability for your interactions no real long term consequences for those interactions. I think things like civility, respect, and common courtsey have gone by the wayside in our live and let live era. I think that if you where forced to face the same grocery guy, the taxi driver, the school teacher, the postal counter person on a daily basis as you went about your life, work, church, shopping, walking in the park civility would still have a place in our society today

Living in Hope
B

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RE: Pushovers...or not. - 6/17/2008 2:58:34 PM

Maahsatti

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quote:

I think that people dont hold people accountable for how they interact with each other.

Greetings Sylverdawn,

While I agree, that most people, do not hold other people accountable, I feel that Goreans do. Personally, I do. Much like what you and Liz has said. I often do as well. However, I strongly feel there are just some people in this life, that courtesy and politeness is absolutely foriegn to them and to be so with them gets me know where.
I am an advocate for the old saying. Thats sometimes to let one taste their own medicine is a big help, they quickly realize, that it is not all that easy to swallow down.

I wish you well,
Maahsatti

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RE: Pushovers...or not. - 6/17/2008 3:03:55 PM

MontrealPhoenix

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Greetings Mistress Y,

I find that indeed yes, i am tested more, as my submission grows. Unfortunately there are those who assume that because i'm a slave they are allowed to be downright nasty and know that i won't tell them off.

The trick of course is to find the balance between showing a Free that i'm not a pushover and displeasing them. It will not do to get nasty, that is acting above my position on the Gorean food chain. On the other hand, i simply won't roll over and play dead, to do so is to teach them it's okay to be nasty.

phoenix (imp)

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RE: Pushovers...or not. - 6/17/2008 3:09:30 PM

ElizabethAnne

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Hello phoenix,

So give us an example of how you would "teach" a Gorean free man it's not ok to be nasty.

Thanks,

Elizabeth

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RE: Pushovers...or not. - 6/17/2008 4:32:19 PM

MRandme

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Greetings to the Free,
greetings to the property,

Slaves, assuming lower resistance, do you find as you grow in submission that more people test you?

Ironically, no, because as i have grown in my submission to my Master, i have learned to say 'no' to other people and to be more firm about how i am treated. i used to get frazzled with my need to please, to try to make everyone happy. Now i know i don't need to do that, there is only one person i need to please. i can do that by being polite but also by taking care of myself by not allowing others to walk all over me and treat me badly.

my submission gives me a balance in my life that means i am less likely to let an rude customer or pushy coworker get my goat. i rarely get poor service, but have no hesitation in mentioning when i do have a problem.

People tend to read in others' body language how far they can push another, whether the person they are talking to will push back, will shrink away, will react in a given way. As Free Men and Women, there is no doubt a self-assurance that is projected in that body language; it probably says "Don't screw with me."

The increase in self-confidence i have gained in the past year no doubt shows as well. Therefore, i am pushed less. *shrug* That's my theory anyway.

my thanks for allowing me to contribute to the thread.

i wish You well,

g

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RE: Pushovers...or not. - 6/17/2008 6:38:15 PM

MontrealPhoenix

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Greetings Mistress Elizabeth,

*smiles* Teach a Gorean Master? Goodness, no, it's not my place to teach a Gorean Master....well except perhaps how to play a board game. That isn't the way i meant the word teach. What i meant is that they learn (are taught) that it's not okay to be nasty. I do apologise if i wasn't clear.

Sometimes it's not what is said but what is not said that's important. By not reacting when someone - anyone in fact, not just Goreans - is nasty, that person does not get the reaction they want. After a while it becomes boring to act in such a way and they stop. Well okay maybe they haven't learned that it's not okay to be nasty, i didn't put it the right way, but nonetheless it is a way to get it to stop.

be well,

phoenix

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~Tribesmen of Gor ..pg 75

"He who ties a woman owns her"
~Guardsman Of Gor pg 267

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RE: Pushovers...or not. - 6/17/2008 9:16:04 PM

slavetaboo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ygraine

Slaves, assuming lower resistance, do you find as you grow in submission that more people test you?

Greetings Mistress,

I believe as I learn things which help me expand my thinking and grow in my submission that less people test me. I have learned many ways to be pleasing and those things also work in this area. I believe it is more important to remain true to one's station and less important to be right, argue, be heard, disobey, misbehave, etc.

I do tend to get taken advantage of but for me, my focus remains more on how I treat people than how they treat me.

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RE: Pushovers...or not. - 6/17/2008 9:34:54 PM

alittleevil

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ygraine

Slaves, assuming lower resistance, do you find as you grow in submission that more people test you?

Greetings Mistress Ygraine,

It has been my experience that if i am softer, more humble and listen more than speak, i am tested less...or, at least, am emotionally affected less by general 'others'' actions.

My thanks for the blog recommendation, Mistress. It is interesting reading.

Best to you,
aj