LordODiscipline
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Joined: 6/28/2004
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Leonidas
I see. You're looking to quantify the unknowable. Well, all I can say is good luck. You're never going to know how many people's first introduction to M/s was the Gor books, or how many sought out the scene because they read one, or how may "ideas" they got about how to carry on an M/s lifestyle from them. You just don't know. Neither do I. You don't know how many people were "turned on" to the scene or had their ideas about same shaped by Townsend's book. Neither do I. It's can't be known. It is not possible to estimate it. You can have an opinion about it, based on your personal history, but that's about all. If you really think otherwise, you might want to adjust the dosage of your happy drugs.
Um - once again you are out of context with the conversation.
I am referring to knowing the history of when Gor made influx and inference into the 'world of BDSM'... you were talking about personal perspective relative to the amount of people...
Hence the response I gave -
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See - I am not looking for 'estimates - we get enough guesses out there and specious inference thorough people's stated 'personal histories'.
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In the history of alt.sex.bondage, where terms like TPE and BDSM were coined and first used, "Gor" was mentioned 137 times. Gorean got 53 mentions. "Larry Townsend" was mentioned 126 times. "Leatherman's Guide"? 1 mention.
OK - and, this contributes to the conversation in... what..way? We are talking (now) about the history of Gor within the context of BDSM... That people talk more about one thing than another over the years is not assisting in that endeavor.
However, if we are to play word count.. how about we also count B&D, D&S, and S&M and see where those place... might be interesting. (They were all utilized interchangably due to censors from the 1960's through the 1990's).
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All that tells you is that Larry was mentioned a bit less often than Gor and Gorean in the years that that group was active, and his book didn't get much play at all. That's about as good as you're going to do in terms of trying to quantify influence and "mind share". Anything else is speculation. Period.
Um... missing the point yet still. The conversation had moved past this point.. and, one gruop (there was more than one, as you know) does not a quorum make... (are those guys you mentioned available?)
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Well, when people think and talk about things, they are generally considered to be influential ideas.
Um.. not inless there is something "moving" in the culture (either due to the discussion and/or due to other influence).. what we are seeing here is idle curiosity about influence from personal perspective... (You are really reaching here)
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It's alright if you don't agree.
Thank you... But, this is not a matter of agreeing or disagreeing.. this is something you have to wrap your mind about as a truth... (although I do not think you capable of this introspection from the apparent timbre of these posts).
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Beyond looking at mindshare, it's pretty tough to "demonstrate" influence in a text only medium like a news group.
Agreed - especially when it is one comment without reply and only the second following a 6 month absence of the word "Gor" from the list is rather poor (does not appear too influential at this point to me... but, of course... there might have been somantic effect in some part of the subconscious of all readers leading to a later explosion of influence... or - not.)
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Um... yes, you are right. I can't prove that the Gor books were more well known to those who might like to gather and discuss bondage while they were being published than they were 5 years afterward. I think that most reasonable folks would think it a fairly safe assumption though.
Not sure what you are saying... that bondage became vogue after the writing of these books????
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See the statistics above.
LOL...
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Do you have something other than your personal assumptions about how infuential Larry's book was?
I never said it was more influential... I said his writing influenced an incredible amount of other BDSM books in the decades following it (and, gave examples)... and his writing paid his bills...
And, this while thing started because I listed a lot more that that book - and, you latched onto this 'one'.(have you read it yet?)
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Some kind of statistic that you can point to that quantifies how much "buzz" or mind-share it enjoys in the scene, or how many people cite it as a formative influence on them, or is it just your personal speculation ?
Quantification without attribuition does not let us know when something became influential... or, how great of an impact...
Those numbers as 'statitistic' would be rejected by anyone considering them seriously as the information is so limited as to be useless.
All posting boards of the time that was being considered would have to be taken into the study to understand anything with significance... the time line would have to be graphed in order to understand the increase of 'influence'... and, a demarcation would be established in order to state that there is "this" place on the graph at which it could be concisdered more than a 'fad' - etcetera
Do me a favor, while you are looking about for more erratically considered things you might want to call 'proof'... the thing we need (seriously) is the point at which someone first mentioned that they were Gorean and/or were forming a group that is Gorean... that would be a significant thing.
But, then I digress from your rant.
Since you asked for my personal speculation:
I would say that Gor in the BDSM context did not start as early as you state it did (the books were aimed and sold to children and nothing of note relative to utilizing them as a means of living in a power exchange realtional way was noticed until the mid-ninties....
...and, that you are definitively reaching for straws and being overtly contrary in order to simply prove something which you are not readliy divulging to the group that you may have 'fudged' about.
But, that is speculation based on the scrambling I see... although I am willing to be proven incorrect.
Other than that... this is going no where... and, you are sincerely being boorish.... so, I shall definitvely bow out of this conversation.
Bon appetite.
~J
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