LordODiscipline
Posts: 995
Joined: 6/28/2004
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ORIGINAL: edana
Funny, when I first started out (in 1988) it seemed to be a well enough known male-dom sub-culture here in So-Cal.
If you can provide some sort of proof of this, I would be more than happy to retract the statement - however, the earliest inference I can find to Gor was a personal's advertisement in a 1989 Chicago magazine for a "Gor-like relationship" that was desired by the correspondent.
And, I have been on the internet since the use-net groups, et al - and, have not seen anything about this in their postings and/or in their arvchives.
But, (and, again) I would love to see something countering this.
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Well enough known, in fact, to be associated with unsavory biker types who weren't sufficiently deferential to their women for polite company. I was on "the internet" then, but not many folks were. There were some BBS style bulletin boards around at the time, though. You aren't the first one to claim that it's an internet invention, and you aren't the first one to be wrong about that. As I remember, though, not many folks that I knew at the time would have known who Larry Townsend was, and he lives here. I think we just travel in different circles.
Well - I knew who he was... and, although I would not state that he was common - he was better known than Mr. Lange in association with leather/BDSM.
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I would say a "greater influence" than Mr. Lange's tomes... as it definitively influenced all of BDSM - not just a portion thereof.
Yeah, I know you would, and that's fine.
Well - and, again - if you can show me to be deficient, I would gladly retract this.
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Come now. A "how to manual for people involved in modern BDSM relationships"? You can't be serious. It's a layman's guide to the gay leather scene, is it not? I'm sure that even Larry would laugh his ass off at that assessment of that particular book. He was writing about a specific scene and the etiquitte of that scene specifically for gay men, no? Seems to me, too, that just about every dyed in the wool leatherman that I've ever spoken to laments how "modern BDSM relationships" bear little resemblence to the scene that Larry was writing about (i.e. the het scene "doesn't get it"). If that book were as influential as you're claiming, you wouldn't have to keep explaining who Larry is, and what "Old Guard" means.
Well - apparently you have never read it... so, I would not expect you to know about this... Please do read it and note the ability of the information to trancend genders....
And, of course there are detractors... hence the 'slam' that was what the term "Old Guard" was meant to be.
But - and, again - it is the archetype for all such books since then (and, it was not fiction).
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...until (as mentioned) it's popularity on the internet in the mid-ninties. In the interim, books such as SM101 (J. Weisman) and Sex Magik (Pat Califa) came to bear with the same genre and were popularly acclaimed within the lifestyle. And, not all of those were hom-erotica/inspired...
Again, I think we just travel in differnent circles. I was identifying as a Gorean for a quite a while before the mid-nineties. I've spoken with men who have since the late 70s.
I have spoken with people who claimed such as well - but, no one has been able to offer me any definitve proof of such.. an article, a posting, a book that speaks about this...
I consider everything to be BS without solid proof... (too many people earning their stripes through 'created histories'... and, there is always a trail to cultural anomolies and sub-cultural inference.
If it is there, I would definiively be interested in seeing it.
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Just FYI, if you want to make the point that not everything you quote comes from the gay scene, you should mention a book or two by folks who aren't gay. There are some, you know.
Why? It does not lend them any more validity as being cultural influences... and, Pauline Reage is not gay as neither is Jay Weisman (neither was the Marquis De Sade for that matter... or Von Masoch, etc. etc. etc.)
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Or it could be more telling of the author's proclivities. As you said earlier, Dr. Lange's "day job" has always been as an academic. Maybe he fancies himself more a professor of philosophy than a purveyor of erotica. Then again, maybe he was just someone trying to raise some kids on a small salary. I don't know, and you don't either.
I don't believe I have (in any way) demeaned Mr. Lange. He is what he is, as are we all.
But, insulting someone's 'proclivities' (when this is what we are all about) and, (if anything) the fact that Mr. Townsend publically and privately 'walked the walk' (vice simply writing about it) should be reason for a celebration of his life, rather than consternation and condemnation about his "proclivities'.
This is rather a specious basis for the decrying someone, their writings, and their life's work.
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I think that your need to potray him as the latter betrays a certain insecurity, though, and says more about you than it does about him.
LOL.... nice twist to the personal epitaph in order to sully the waters; but, no dice.
I am stating facts and asking for positive correction of anything that is not true. If you have some sort of proof (in writing, in print, on the internet, by historical note, etc.) - I would be more than happy to retract anything I have written here or anywhere else.
History is part conjecture... but, that conjecture is based on certainty as provided by proof. I am always interested in accuracy.
If what you surmise and state is true - please provide something to demonstrate it.
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'The Story of O' is a definitvely the quintessential book on the subject (as fiction) that has been read by millions more than the Gor series... and, is still in popular print and read today as a 'classic'.
Some people think so. Some others hate the book (especially the part where the protagonist agrees to be killed). Some people like the marketplace series, or the Gor books, or the Beauty series, or even the bazillion "bodice rippers" that get published each year that are pervaded with themes of sexual domination and exploitation. Is the "Story of O" quintesential? It certainly became synonymous with SM erotica for a generation in the popular lexicon, but by that standard, is Deep Throat is the quintesential porn flick? Depends on who you ask, I guess.
Well - I am sure it is found in more libraries than the Gor series - and, has earned the title of "classic' - so, I suppose that (despite the detractors) there is a consensus by people who are more astute than either of us
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Then we should agree that this discussion as a competition should never have taken place.. albeit.. we are talking about historical inference into a lifestyle that was in 'full gear' before the influnce of Mr. Lange's writings.
Depending on who you ask, the scene that Townsend was writing about was already in decline when the Gor books took off.
I am not about to give you a history lesson - but, suffice it to say that this is untrue.
All movements evolve.... and, Larry was one portion of the history of leather that has pervaded the psyche of generations since.
As far as heterosexual movements - you might consider the history of The Mattachine Society, TES, Janus, PeP as a few of the organizations that were/are prevalent in the American heterosexual/pansexual scene that predate the influence and/or writings of 'Gor" - and, are based in the cultural movements of the times they were established and exist(ed) in.
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You can't really say that we're talking about "a lifestyle".
I know of millions of people who would legitimately argue with this point. For you we might not belong to a 'lifestyle' - but then, for they you probably are associating yourself with books who's original purpose was to keep pubescent teens in thrall while a publisher raked in some dough and the author was paid a pittance for the effort.
But, who is to say?
Depends upon whom you speak with... and, the actuality of the proof available.
I am exceptionally willing to be proven incorrect in order to learn more for our common history.
~J
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