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The philosophy.

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ORIGINAL: Behness

Greetings all.

As far as my current understanding of the Gorean philosophy goes so far, to be Gorean you, essentially, accept who you are, what you are, your role in society and use this knowledge to become the best you can be, without hiding or denying any part of your being.  Because of this, men are primarily dominant, and women are (mostly) submissive, whether they be slave or free woman.  However, I personally see that, in the biological roles of men and women, men are meant to protect women, take care of them physically, provide for them, etc.

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In regards to slavery, and the relationships with free women, how does this stance take in the Gorean philosophy?  Especially with slaves, whom men can kill, hurt, or maim at a whim, does the protective side of the relationship come through?  And do Goreans believe that it is a man's duty to protect women?

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As a basis for asking, I was reading Marauders or Mercs of Gor, or something, I don't remember, but there was a part where Tarl throws a slave off a cliff so he can slide down after her.  As far as I could see, there was a possibility she could have died from the fall, all in the name of saving his life.  I may have read this wrong, and if I can find the part again I will re read it, but killing a helpless slave to save your own life seems.. weak to me.  Like throwing a puppy off of a cliff.

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Any and all answers/corrections are appreciated, will be noted, and thought about.

Best wishes,
Behness.

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ORIGINAL: FunDomsubcpl

This seems to be the right topic for this question. On another topic this statement was posted "Gor is Gor". Then the question "what part of Gor is Gor"? So with a world of vast diversity, with cultures from Roman to American Indian. When every absolute at the bigining of a book is blown away by the end of the book, just what part of Gor is Gor? 

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ORIGINAL: FunDomsubcpl

So... is it agreed that "The philosophy" is the part of Gor that is Gorean?

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So then activities should not make one Gorean or not Gorean. Understanding that, "the hidden diamond of Gor is Honnor" and discounting obvous dishonorable activities, any activity is neither Gorean or not Gorean. So is it fair to slam on people here for activities rather than philosophy?

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Understanding that "The three pillars of Gorean society are Homestone, Caste System, and Slavery". What would your definition of that philosophy be? Seems to me most of the debate here is that people are working on compleetly different definitions of this philosophy. For this discussion I will accept that the Wagon People and those from the Island of Cos, and everyone else on Gor, actually have the same philosophy.   

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ORIGINAL: Trevelyan

Tal Orion,

We are conversing more this weekend than we have in a year or more.

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When I define the major elements of Gorean philosophy, I prefer to use the terms and explanations that Norman uses rather than those created by Marcus or Luther or others (much as I respect their thought and opinions).

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My reason for that is simple.  If I use the word "green", you and I both know what green is, but there are many variations of "green".  You may think of a light yellowy green, while I may mean a deep forest green.  In describing the "green" that you thought I meant to someone else, you may use the word "puce."  That person may not be up on the less common colors and think of the color meant by the word "mauve."  And so, in a few simple steps the idea that everyone knows has gotten way off track.

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A great example is the phrase "natural order."  Norman does not use that phrase a single time in the books.  Marcus created it in 1996 as shorthand for his extrapolation of one of Norman's ideas.  Now it is all over the internet, enthusiastically used to mean a variety of different things, many of which, in my opinion, were never intended by Norman.

I wish you well,

Trevelyan

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ORIGINAL: FunDomsubcpl

So... is it agreed that "The philosophy" is the part of Gor that is Gorean?

So then activities should not make one Gorean or not Gorean. Understanding that, "the hidden diamond of Gor is Honnor" and discounting obvous dishonorable activities, any activity is neither Gorean or not Gorean. So is it fair to slam on people here for activities rather than philosophy?

Understanding that "The three pillars of Gorean society are Homestone, Caste System, and Slavery". What would your definition of that philosophy be? Seems to me most of the debate here is that people are working on compleetly different definitions of this philosophy. For this discussion I will accept that the Wagon People and those from the Island of Cos, and everyone else on Gor, actually have the same philosophy.   

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The phrase that he uses more than once is "the order of nature" by which he means the fact that most species of mammals are male-dominant species, including humans.  When a man dominates a woman, and she responds submissively, they are both behaving naturally, in accordance with the biological programming of our species. 

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ORIGINAL: FunDomsubcpl

Interesting discussion. I thank you all.


Is it just "men are dominate"? Just that life is more "natural" with that order? And even if that is just one part of it, why are there dominate women on here claming to follow "The philosophy"? How are they not being Hypocrites? It is one thing to be Free, but another to be Dominate.

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Tal and greetings all,

I am opening this topic for the reason expressed in the title.  Simply for people to ask questions and hopefully some of the great men and women around here will be kind enough to answer.  It is an invitation to those new people around here, those lurkers, those people just passing by, to ask a question without having to start an entirely new subject.  I know, I can already here the groans, about if they seriously wanted answers they would take the initiative to start the topic...  I simply remind these folks that others are afraid to be pounced upon, by the "brutal, elitist, Goreans".

So in a good faith effort, I open this up for any and all questions, only asking that you remember to use a bit of common courtesy.

I wish you all well,
Thadius

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I see no men have spoken to this latest in the question recently posed by Missturbation and then again in a slightly different context by MsJssk. So I'll pose my three cents so as to at least demonstrate that the ideas and content of what is Gorean principle is not constructed or organized by women but it is they rather that follow, but yet often enough inspire the men they so trust to remain steadfast, noble and honorable as personal nature will allow. It is not that all women are committed personally to a single man, but all free are pledged to a community or a homestone unless determined to be of a rogue nature. In this pledge of loyalty that is of utmost importance to the Gorean free we find belonging and community, fellowship and prosperity.

Gor or to be Gorean is to simply being a free person set to understand and apply the principles and philosophies that are defined within the lives of the characters in the novels. No different than other books that use storied traditions and parables to impart social and personal wisdoms onto succeeding generations the books of Gor have become guides to the collective framework of the Gorean individuals and communities at large.

To be free is a simple term, even to the Gorean. There may be those that would intend to elevate a simple phrase to hold a much more significant meaning, but the term free is simply that, free men or women are un-owned; they have no “master”. The slave is that, the man or women that has been in today’s societal tolerance a mastered person. I love the idea of owning a beautiful wench, naked at my feet in a legal sense, but I am a law biding American male, faithful to the laws of my Home Stone, unless speeding be considered. I plead the fifth on that.

Not to diminish the significance of freedom I’ll elaborate on my idea of what the Gorean Free Man and Woman are. As I said, if you are not owned human property, you are free; this would be the case with a Ubar (a King) or a she urt (a homeless river tramp) on the canals of Port Kar. It is in fact the personage or the community that elevates the station of ones individual status as free. Marlenus of Ar is deemed Ubar of Ubars by his hand and the acceptance of this notion by his fellow man. Hence, his personal accountability and credibility have elevated his status as a free man. It is no different with the free woman; it is her own personal merits that hold her as either a Lofty Gorean Free Woman or a she urt simply existing through her days. (An urt is indecently is actually the Gorean term referring to a rat like creature, so I would suppose that you might be able to better understand the common reference)

I suspect that when you pass through the Gorean sections of message boards across the web it wouldn’t take long to determine who might be viewed as lofty free men and women and who might simply be free as a moment happenstance.  Take the women Angel, she is attempting to find her feet as a free at this point in time, I believe it is certain her internal nature is suitable for that of a slave yet she has yet to be properly claimed and conquered by a man. Look at the woman Kimveri, she is without doubt a women that would be seen as a Lofty Gorean Free Woman. Her demeanor and personal pride and character ooze forth with the vision of freedom claimed.

The Gorean experience is certainly only within the throws of its infancy; we are just now debating on the meaningful ideas and agendas that will hopefully rebuild nobility from forgotten cultures and hatch new venues and understanding for the course of what is our vision of humanity. No being a Gorean is not the “one true” answer and at this time it certainly isn’t for everyone. But it may be what many of us see as the human condition gone right, when personal nature, responsibility and accountability are not only accepted but cherished.

So you see why Goreans may because of our acceptance of the M/s dynamic often be called kinksters and BDSMer’s we are not all that simply labeled. Many of us may in fact enjoy kinks that would be seen as BDSM in nature but these pleasures are not that which ultimately define us.

I would imagine that most labeled as BDSMer’s should not ever be so quickly named. I have a valued friend that is a very respected Leatherman and I simply call him a friend. JL may be a sadistic SOB, but he is so much more than that. Philosophies seem to be found in the most unique of places. Wouldn’t you say?

I hope this adds to the perspective of what is a Gorean free… I’m sure that more will soon follow.

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Where does someone like a female medical doctor (or veterinarian) fit into these core beliefs? For me, i may be naturally submissive, and part of that is caring for others...but it also has inhibited me from being a 24/7 sub...or slave etc. because i am on call and if work calls in the middle of playtime, or chores or what have you...it comes first. Where would that fit into a Gorean household? Would a woman like that automatically be considered a FW, even though she is submissive by nature?

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ORIGINAL: Sylverdawn

eponvet there are strict guidelines about speaking about minors on this board.. we do not do it.. discussion relating to homosexuality have hotly debated and you are right its an individual choice has to how it is viewed. Norman so far has made no specific declaration about it. That being said there appears to be at least one specific scenario that include a male homosexual relationship which indicates that it occurs within the ethos that is Gor. I would direct you to this thread on the topic...

http://www.collarchat.com/m_766351/mpage_1/tm.htm or this one http://www.collarchat.com/m_390040/mpage_1/tm.htm

I hope this helps SD.