RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but were to afraid to ask.

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RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but were to afraid to ask.

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RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/2/2008 12:39:16 PM

Thadius

Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
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Greetings taboo,

I will start by saying that "punishment" is probably the wrong word, especially when one thinks about all of the rewards and joys that you do receive by being a parent.

Do those responsibilities make you less appealing? It might to some men. If you see it as being a negative, so will anybody that would consider you. I guess what I am trying to say is, even if a man was willing to look beyond those responsibilities that come with you, if you believe them to be a negative, it will certainly be noticed and may even become a self-fulfilling prophecy. On the other hand there are men out there that may find your situation to be an attractive one, and be up to the challenge, so to speak.

To answer your closing question(s). Everyone has some baggage they carry, be it emotional, health issues, and/or financial, and as such each and everyone of us are uniquely different in how we choose to enter into a relationship. For me, who and what the girl is will help decide whether those other issues are worth getting involved with. In other words, some girls may or may not be worth putting some extra effort into. The old diamond in the rough comes to mind.

These are just my opiniions. I would only add that if being involved with a Gorean man is what is meant to be, continue to excel at what it is you are doing now, strive to be that which you feel inside, look at what it is you have to offer, work on areas that you know are deficient, and when the time comes, it will happen if it is meant to be. I hate to say it, but there are no hard and fast rules about relationships of any type, the only thing anybody can do is work on themselves to prepare for if and when the opportunity arises.

I wish you well,
Thadius

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to slavetaboo)

Post #: 21

RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/2/2008 1:05:16 PM

slavetaboo

Posts: 408
Joined: 11/30/2007
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Greetings Master,

I did say I was having trouble conveying my thoughts. To clarify, I was not saying I felt punished by my children or for being a parent. I almost wish I hadn't asked these questions already. I will attempt to be more clear about what I wanted to know. I am thankful for your response.

The situation I was attempting to describe is one where I am speaking with someone who is interested in me then becomes less interested when they think of the reality of moving me from where I am now and to them. For example, I live in Georgia. If I met someone far away, my sons and I would have to move. This would remove us from the life we are accustomed to living now. My question isn't about my concerns with this. It is about someone becoming less interested or disinterested because I have family ties to my children and my own extended family and sees this as something that they would not want to take away from me.

_____________________________

For I long for a man with nests of wild things in his hair.

(in reply to Thadius)

Post #: 22

RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/2/2008 1:56:10 PM

Thadius

Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
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Greetings taboo,

That makes a bit more sense, thank you for clarifying. Also, I am glad that you asked these questions, opening up the eyes of others to concerns like these, can help let people know they aren't the only ones with them.

I could definitely see how a man would not want to take you away from that existing support system, especially for the sake of the boys. Does this rule it out? No. Personally, I probably would not want to upset that balance in the lives of your sons, so it would be an issue for me, at least in terms of uprooting you in an instant and moving you here. I might consider it though, with a gradual transition, and allowing enough time for everybody involved to adjust to the situation. I cannot speak for anybody but myself, but I hope that gives you a little insight into how I look at your situation.

I wish you well,
Thadius

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to slavetaboo)

Post #: 23

RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/2/2008 3:04:02 PM

ygraine

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Joined: 10/10/2006
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taboo,
I think it is important to realize, not everyone wants the responsibility of um's in their life. Not only the financial responsibility, but the time consumption of raising ums and time taken away from pleasing the Master. I also think, and I know this is a very contrversial stance, but I think it is inappropriate and irresponsible for mothers who have primary responsibility for their kids to be involved in a Master/slave relationship when the kids are not the Masters. I believe it is not going to work, because her priorities should and most likely would be with the growth and protection of her offspring. Think about it. If you are commited to complete surrender to a man, where does that leave you in terms of making good decisions for your kids? To me, once a woman accepts primary responsibility for their offspring, they have moved into a mental and responsibility mindset that prohibits this sort of activity. Parenting is a responsibility. Too many people take that lightly. In the Gorean ethos, truthfulness to oneself and integrity are hallmarks. Can a woman look into her heart and say:"Yes I am willing to surrender my responsibility to someone else?"The thought that any woman with that sort of responsibility wants to abdicate it to someone else is abhorent to me.
I understand many other people disagree, and I hope to hear from them as well.
Ygraine

< Message edited by ygraine -- 7/2/2008 3:09:48 PM >

_____________________________

If you think something is too good to be true, it probably is.

(in reply to slavetaboo)

Post #: 24

RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/2/2008 4:00:39 PM

subNsuit

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Joined: 10/26/2007
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Greetings Master Thadius, thank you very much for opening this thread.

taboo, most interesting thoughts you shared about would a Master uproot a support system and stable life to bring a slave to Him…very interesting. It is almost a double-edged sword…what is exactly best for the girl in the long run…wow, interesting and I really hope more people shed insight to this.

The question I am most curious about is…John Norman’s first book, Tarnsman of Gor was released in 1967, I am not quite sure when the “Gorean lifestyle” became a recognized term since a lot of the philosophy through the series is Norman’s combination of other cultures, etc,…but it is my understanding that a generation is 30 years, well in that sense, we are embarking what could possibly be the second generation of Goreans for a lack of a better term.

I am curious if there are some that were raised under the Gorean lifestyle or if possibly now raising the second generation of Gorean men or very much quieted in the home.

Inquiring minds,
~donna ~

(in reply to Thadius)

Post #: 25

RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/2/2008 7:21:32 PM

FrankAr

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Greetings YGraine,

I was wondering if you have not placed the fathom of the strength in mentality of the female in the knowledge that she would have before begging the collar of the male that she wishes to be with ? I mean before she would beg the collar of the male, the female would have thought about the decisions that she knows would be made by her new owner about the whole family. The slave would have sought questions of the male about the future, what would be the schooling, what about the work situation, can he afford having a slave ? All this and more would be in the back of her mind.

You see some females thinking that having a family before meeting another is like baggage, I tend to think of it as growth. For then the maturity of the male shows right out when he would accept the family in a whole, knowing the decision would not just affect him, but her, and others. The maturity would come through by the reasoning and philos of the Gorean nature that a man would TRY to achieve.

I mean, would I myself go down a path in trying to collar a slave in taboo's situation, yes. Would I welcome the baggage, yes, for I know that I do have the finances, I do know that the strength would be maturing the family as a whole. Would I have her work, not for the first 6 months while the family is cementing themselves here. Maybe not have her work and just give the family the steering that it needs.

On the other hand would I force her to go through the next 6 months of my life how it is panning out, no. I would not let her have that forced upon her in a way that it would not be right. After 8 months and then I resume my search again, would I still seek taboo out, the flat out answer would be yes, why not. But why have the female that is so desiring to be a slave to a strong male, on hold for 8 months, when she might just around the corner meet another. It might be out of the blue that she might meet another.

Just my two cents worth.

Be well.

Frank Ar.

_____________________________

I am just me, simple ol me.

Even the softest whisper can be heard in the loudest group....Frank H.

(in reply to ygraine)

Post #: 26

RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/2/2008 7:48:43 PM

ygraine

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Good Day Frank!
Thank you for your reply.
I am glad you see things that way, to me it sounds like the mature and responsible path of a man who wishes to take a woman on.
I think though, my point is more about women than men. I think women who have children (and are the primary caregivers) have a responsibility to their families. I believe women who have signed on to raise children themselves have an obligation to remain free and to make good decisions for them. I also believe there are very very few women who truly submit and even fewer who are capable of giving up that need to make decisions about their children. When a woman becomes enslaved, and I mean truly enslaved, she must put the man first. She will put the man first. That is risky business to me, when it comes to someone else's children in his home. Again, I know this is controversial, but I feel strongly that overall, it is unwise and not necessarily very smart. I know there are exceptions to this, but I believe the majority of situations do not end happily for the people for whom she is responsible.
Thanks!
Ygraine

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If you think something is too good to be true, it probably is.

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Post #: 27

RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/2/2008 8:07:08 PM

OrionTheWolf

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Greetings Y,

What if the best decision is to realize they are not good at making decisions, and that a good owner may fulfill things better than they? I believe that too many make bad decisions because they feel obligated to do things that society expects of them, and then fail because they are not capable of that role or those actions.

If the slave begs the collar of the right man, then putting them first is not by default a bad thing, because they may very well be better at making sure the UM is taken care of. You really have them same pitfalls in a female falling in love with the wrong man, and it is seen everyday.

I feel that to blanketly say it is unwise, is unwise in and of itself. Someone could just as easily say it is unwise to remarry because the new husband may be abusive. Bad decisions in anything are bad decisions, to say it is unwise blanketly is to say that an M/s relationship is inherently flawed.

I think that the majority of lives, regardless of the type of relationship, end of unhappy because people do not think through on decisions and often feel societal pressure to be or act a certain way that is not healthy for them or the ones they are responsible for. I think each situation needs to be addressed based upon the particulars of that situation, and each person needs to do what is best for them and theirs.

Live well,
Orion

quote:

ORIGINAL: ygraine

Good Day Frank!
Thank you for your reply.
I am glad you see things that way, to me it sounds like the mature and responsible path of a man who wishes to take a woman on.
I think though, my point is more about women than men. I think women who have children (and are the primary caregivers) have a responsibility to their families. I believe women who have signed on to raise children themselves have an obligation to remain free and to make good decisions for them. I also believe there are very very few women who truly submit and even fewer who are capable of giving up that need to make decisions about their children. When a woman becomes enslaved, and I mean truly enslaved, she must put the man first. She will put the man first. That is risky business to me, when it comes to someone else's children in his home. Again, I know this is controversial, but I feel strongly that overall, it is unwise and not necessarily very smart. I know there are exceptions to this, but I believe the majority of situations do not end happily for the people for whom she is responsible.
Thanks!
Ygraine

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Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.

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Post #: 28

RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/2/2008 8:41:23 PM

ygraine

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Hello Orion,
Nothing I said was a blanket statement. I said, these are my opinions. I also pointed out that the majority of the time, I believe this to be true. I also acknowlege exceptions.
By the way, just to clear things up for me, if a person is not good at making decisions, why are the decisions about who is going to "Master" them reliable?
You are right, I believe, about the abusive husband scenario. Think of how often that happens, too. Women who jump into those situations without thinking of their chidren are just as remiss in my opinion.
I am saying....in a nutshell....a person with children has taken on responsibilities. That person should, in my opinion, be accountable. People with that kind of responsibility carries a heavy burden and frankly, should not shove that onto someone else.
Again, my opinion.
I agree with your last paragraph, by the way. However, I think anyone who accepts responsibility, man or woman, for children or for other people, needs to have integrity and honor that responsibility. Maybe they are unhappy for awhile because they cant have hot monkey sex with whoever because they are tied down with kids. To me, tough shit. They need to accept responsibility and put things on hold (abject slavery, for example) until such time as they are truly free make that choice. I believe, when women are mothers, they really can't, and most often, really shouldn't.
Thanks for getting back to me.
Thadius, please let me know if I hijacked the thread here, I will move it or stop posting.
Thanks
Y

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If you think something is too good to be true, it probably is.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 29

RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/2/2008 8:44:05 PM

fairerthanshe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ygraine

Good Day Frank!
Thank you for your reply.
I am glad you see things that way, to me it sounds like the mature and responsible path of a man who wishes to take a woman on.
I think though, my point is more about women than men. I think women who have children (and are the primary caregivers) have a responsibility to their families. I believe women who have signed on to raise children themselves have an obligation to remain free and to make good decisions for them. I also believe there are very very few women who truly submit and even fewer who are capable of giving up that need to make decisions about their children. When a woman becomes enslaved, and I mean truly enslaved, she must put the man first. She will put the man first. That is risky business to me, when it comes to someone else's children in his home. Again, I know this is controversial, but I feel strongly that overall, it is unwise and not necessarily very smart. I know there are exceptions to this, but I believe the majority of situations do not end happily for the people for whom she is responsible.
Thanks!
Ygraine

Greetings Mistress Ygraine,

There are many of us who do just this, who surrender to a man with the knowledge that we yield responsibility about decisions concerning our ums. It all boils down to the choice we make when we submit. When we seek a Master and we have ums, we need to consider what kind of man he is not only in the context of our enslavement but also as a guide and provider for our ums.

It is possible to develop healthy relationships and a balanced home life with children in an M/s dynamic. I know many who have done this successfully and lead full, rich lives with their Master and serve him completely while being responsible parents.

It all goes back to seeking the Master and not the collar. SJ wouldn't be the right fit for everybody, but for me and mine, he is absolutely the one.

well wishes ~ fairer

_____________________________

"The girl shows up tomorrow evening for some time together...and I need someone to fuck with, so things are looking up, I reckon. "

"The girl is a world class somnambulist." ~ Senor Jaime

(in reply to ygraine)

Post #: 30

RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/2/2008 8:48:54 PM

slavetaboo

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Greetings Masters,
Greetings Mistresses,
Greetings slaves,

I would like to offer my thanks to those who participated with regard to my question. I appreciate your thoughts and the time you devoted in sharing them.

_____________________________

For I long for a man with nests of wild things in his hair.

(in reply to fairerthanshe)

Post #: 31

RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/2/2008 8:57:32 PM

Kirata

Posts: 6362
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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ygraine

She will put the man first. That is risky business to me...

Tal Ygraine,

Putting the woman first would be no less risky a rule of thumb. An um living in a home where there is an adult relationship involving one or both of its parents is immersed in the emotional ambiance of that relationship. The only requirement is that it be a positive one. Which applies, of course, regardless of whether or not ums are involved, at least for anybody with a remote interest in being happy.

IWYW,

Kirata

(in reply to ygraine)

Post #: 32

RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/2/2008 9:03:03 PM

ygraine

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Tal Kirata,
greetings fairer,
Both excellent points, thank you.
Ygraine

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If you think something is too good to be true, it probably is.

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Post #: 33

RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/2/2008 9:25:23 PM

Thadius

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Evening Y,

Actually, I think the discussion is right in line with the thread, it is showing yet another perspective of the dynamics. While I understand the point you were making, perhaps it is my one major flaw (I assume that a Gorean man will take his responsibilities seriously) that prevents me from saying that the situation is or should be the norm. I suppose my assumptions are on the rosey side of things, yet they are still pretty much in line with the thoughts of "trust but verify".

I simply took the question at face value, with the assumptions that a Gorean looking for a slave would take into account the full picture, that they would weigh what was best for all 3 parties (themselves, the slave, and the children). Besides the obvious financial and space considerations, I think that the support system (close family bonds) in place can be very beneficial to the ums, and that if I decided to take on slave in taboo's situation, I would definitely have to figure out how to keep that network in place for all concerned.

I guess in the long run, I am saying that just because a woman becomes a mother, does not mean that she should not be allowed to live. It may even be more difficult for her to adjust to life as an owned piece of property, but if she has the internal fortitude to do so, she might even be more valuable than a woman that hasn't experienced both sides.

Anyways, that is just a bit of food for thought. I would like to thank everybody that has been participating, discussion of the many issues can only lead to understanding for some that don't quite understand. It may even wipe away some of those stereotypes that have been floating around, although sometimes I like the effects they have

I wish you well,
Thadius

< Message edited by Thadius -- 7/2/2008 9:27:26 PM >

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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Post #: 34

RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/3/2008 5:56:51 AM

OrionTheWolf

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Greetings Y,

So to take your line of thought further, all owners of slaves that have UM's should release them so that they can be free. Is this your feelings as well? You say that the Man would come first, but then who do you believe should come first? I see nilla homes where the UM comes first, and the UM is pretty much a brat. My Grandfather was the kind of Man that demanding that he come first, but then again he was the Patriarch of a large family. Whether it is M/s or nilla, a bad relationship causes problems with the UM's. Parents can sometimes sacrifice too much, so that their emotional state is such that it causes problems with raising UM's. The key is to find the balance, and society sure is not going to give good advice on that.

Live well,
Orion

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.

(in reply to ygraine)

Post #: 35

RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/3/2008 6:13:21 AM

Musicmystery

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Tal,

Implicit in this discussion but not yet a direct focus is the factor of distance.

If we all lived together in Gorean Town, all whole lot of things woiuld be possible and realistic that aren't so easy when we're scattered about Gor's twin planet.

Thadius is correct---it's not a matter of what anyone should or shouldn't do, but rather a matter of knowing the circumstances, weighing the consequences of our actions and taking appropriate steps along with full responsibility for those actions.

Just for illustration---I live far out in the country. In so doing, I gain several things important to me. I'm also separated from other things I miss when I lived in Boston and New York. But despite the rosey nonsense we're taught when young, we can't have everything we want--we must make choices. So no complaints---I'm happy with my choice.

Every girl is different, and every girl has different circumstances. Hence, whether to keep her isn't a matter of good or bad, but an appropriate match or not given both the girl and the particular man.

Best to all

Tim

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(in reply to Thadius)

Post #: 36

RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/3/2008 7:03:33 AM

amelliagrace

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Every girl is different, and every girl has different circumstances. Hence, whether to keep her isn't a matter of good or bad, but an appropriate match or not given both the girl and the particular man.

Something that factors in along with Tim's statement above, is that infamous, ever raging, and likely never-to-be-laid-to-rest debate of where "submissive girlfriend" leaves off, and "slave" begins. The answer to that little riddle, of course, varries exponentially from one man to another, one relationship to another.

So far with regard to the discussion at hand, it seems there is general agreement that such decisions must be made carefully and with considerable thought, that being responsible and mature are key elements on both the Master and slave sides of this, that what is best for UMs is a totally different matter from UMs being placed in the place of preiminence in the day to day of a household.

What has not been said here, in so many words, is that not all men want to have you-know-whats around. Fewer still want those who sprung from the loins of another. It is a reality no different from that faced by nilla singles. And even though it often goes unmentioned, single men face the exact same challenge as single women.

"Masters" being "men", those same two factors greatly limit the number of potential Masters who will consider taking on a girl with ums, since there are far fewer potential Masters than males to begin with.

Even in the best of circumstances, finding a good mate or partner or whatever, is challenging. Even then, longevity is an issue. While most in this forum will, I'm sure, acknowledge that "till death do us part" relationships are not the only happy ones, most healthy people I know do seek longevity. Seriously, how manyof you personally know of long term (as in ten years or longer) M/s relationships? How many of those have you, personally, seen?

"Compromise" is not a word heard often in this Gorean forum. The truth remains that there are always necessary choices to be made in life, and many of those choices constitute either short or long term compromises. Bare with me for a moment here...

Perhaps if there was less seeking of "Masters" and "slaves", and more emphasis on seeking compatibility on philosophical, spiritual, and practical levels, more individuals would wind up with that they seek - and in long term relationships.

Labels are but sometime useful trappings. I'd wager most if not all of us have known "slaves" that weren't, and girlfirends or spouses who were slave in everthing but lable.

JMO, and a non-Gorean one at that, I personally prefer substance over trappings. Can't find a "Gorean" Master or slave who wants your personal bag of responsibilities? Seek out a good match, a fine individual, who shares your basic views on the most important stuff of life. You just might find that regardless of what it is called, you've discovered what you sought. Heck, they might even be Gorean or slave or Master, and not even know it. You might even discover that their not being so turns out to be a moot point, if the fit is a fine one.

My apologies if this post is seen as a too tangentical or a derailment.

Grace

< Message edited by amelliagrace -- 7/3/2008 7:08:03 AM >

(in reply to Musicmystery)

Post #: 37

RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/3/2008 7:05:21 AM

Jahnaca

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quote:

Ygraine

Greetings

taboo, the issue with men/women becoming less interested with someone due to being a single parent isn’t just in Gorean walls, it exists outside as well. As several have stated it is a rather difficult position to be thrust in for the party without said obligation. While not impossible to achieve it will take a lot of patience for you.

Ygraine, some 8 odd years ago I found myself a single mother in search of her master. Due to life experience I had set out a criteria of what I needed and what I wanted in regards to my personal responsibility. From that I could not deviate. I knew in the long run I had pretty much limited myself in selection of “masters” but it was the responsible choice. There is a difference between being desperate for ownership (hell a relationship of any sort) and being selective with an final goal in mind. The desperate will fall for anything, they are the ones who most often will be ultimately burned in the end. Their desperation guides their thought, their hearts (often very easily given away) and all in all not the best choice maker in the world. Most will ultimately fail due to this. “Slaves” of a certain kind won’t fall into the trap of desperation and will use their heads before their hearts. The need for ownership doesn’t mean they are incapable. As such with sincere patience, solid thinking of needs/wants as a whole etc they can achieve their goal.

For myself though the final road didn’t lead to slavery as seen now lol. It did lead to finding a man who shares my life and the lives of three ums, who is more father then their own. Having gone through the struggle with him (being single to becoming a sudden parent of three) is difficult for all. Not all can do it. There were many times I wondered why he didn’t just turn heels and run screaming out the door. He didn’t, we all adjusted over time to his headship as boss and dad. The key for me at least Ygraine is realizing that just because I am their biological mother I can give away to him control of the family well being, because I trust him enough to do so. Around me I see ums being first in the lives of parents and yes becoming brats, often in blended families it is the biological parent over controls/pampers the ums leaving the step parent out in left field looking like a moron with no value. That shouldn’t happen I believe. So yes, even in a non Gorean home I sincerely believe that yes, the biological parent should release the stoic grip of raising um to the step parent, willing, and gracefully. It doesn’t take one, it takes two.

There is a difference between running a home as a despot and running a home as a responsible caring provider (I am assuming of course a home run by a man). Such a man will take the unique needs of a family in mind and in hand. This doesn’t by defacto mean slavery is impossible, I am of the mind it doesn’t, just it must be addressed in a special way fitting a given families unique situation. You may not get the best situation for slavery for the moment but in the end raising a family does mean sacrifices. The final product is of more value then living up to a static ideal. Not all want such sacrifices, then they should re-evaluate themselves accordingly.

Jahna

_____________________________

Mass-produced human beings are attractive only to those who expect to be their benevolent mass producers. John Norman

(in reply to ygraine)

Post #: 38

RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/3/2008 7:09:43 AM

Jahnaca

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quote:

Perhaps if there was less seeking of "Masters" and "slaves", and more emphasis on seeking compatibility on philosophical, spiritual, and practical levels, more individuals would wind up with that they seek - and in long term relationships.

Greetings Grace

No truer words have been spoken.

For myself it was finally understanding that statement. It wasn't a "master" I was ultimately seeking, it was a type of man. That type of man exists dispite what label is attached to his forehead.

Jahna

_____________________________

Mass-produced human beings are attractive only to those who expect to be their benevolent mass producers. John Norman

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Post #: 39

RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/3/2008 8:26:07 AM

ygraine

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Joined: 10/10/2006
Status: offline

Hello Jahna and Grace,
I agree the best partner is the best idea. I think Jahna, you actually kind of proved my point, heh. I think there is nothing wrong with being submissive to a man in a relationship. I think the issue for me is the risk of enslavement and the additional risks that incurrs. Perhaps I take the idea of enslavement in too dogmatic of a way. I do not believe a woman should deprive herself of happiness but I do believe if she is the primary caregiver she has an obligation to put her responsibilities first. Its not forever you know, it is just until they are on their own. Then, in my opinion, she is free to beg relentlessly, hopelessly, and find complete surrender.
Ok that scared me.
Y

_____________________________

If you think something is too good to be true, it probably is.

(in reply to Jahnaca)

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All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Gorean Lifestyles >> RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but were to afraid to ask.

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