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RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but were to afraid to ask.


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RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/4/2008 7:44:52 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 6619
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: slavetaboo

I feel very stupid asking this but I am sincere in hoping for honest feedback.


There are no stupid questions, but the answer is brutally simple, as the matter is one of your offspring.

Quite simply put, either they don't come along, or they don't leave, as a kajira is a slave. Owned property. Seeking someone to own you is always a chance to take. A chance that you would thus be taking on behalf of the kids, if you brought them along, since you would necessarily be forfeiting them in the process. And either I would not value them enough to accept them into my home, or I would value them too much to allow you to take that chance on their behalf again.

That is as simply as I can put it, really.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to slavetaboo)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/4/2008 8:17:13 AM   
MasterDragon1963


Posts: 51
Joined: 10/2/2005
Status: offline 		Greetings and salutations

First I would like to pose a question of my own, I have seen several references to "um", as I sence it refers to children, is there any specific form of children?

Now on to my responce to prior questions.
I have noticed that many Goreans are more concerned with their studies and memorizations of passages from the books than they are of who created them. Some do not even know John Normans real name is John Fredrick Lange Jr. None of my extensive research into the life of John Lange Jr. illustrates or implies in any way that he practises or lives any lifestyle related to the books he has writen. However, I did find that he does enjoy attending star trek conventions. One of John's favorite childhood authors is Edgar Rice Burroghs who wrote many science fictional novels, his first series focused around "mars".

Master Dragon

_____________________________

It is not enough to walk thru the fire, but to embrace it, the flesh may be burned, but the pureness of the spirit shall endure forever.

(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/4/2008 8:40:55 AM   
ygraine


Posts: 674
Joined: 10/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie

I don't believe children come first, I believe adults come first, and adult relationships come first. My mother always put my father first and he put her first over us. R's parents put each other first over him. This whole put the kids first even to the detriment of everything else is a new thing and it shows in the generations of entitled brats being reared.


Hello Chewsie,
As always, well put. I have been chewing on this (pardon the pun) since yesterday.  I agree about the entitled brat thing, and I want to clarify my intent of saying children come first in my earlier post. 
I do not believe parents should drop everything and do whatever their lil people dictate.  I do not believe their every want and need and desire should be satisfied by their parent.  That does create that brat scenario you described. 
What I do believe is that women have to be self actualizing (to quote Kimveri) in order to parent their children effectively.  To give that up, to become a slave, is to give up responsibility for something that is fundamentally their responsibility.  This has worked out well for you to do so, and I am glad for you.  However, I can see this being a recipe for disaster.  I also wonder how many women could actually do that, which brings up the whole not-a-slave-but-a-submissive-girlfriend question that is a whole 'nother can of worms.  I know I could not. 
When I said children come first, I mean they are the things we are most responsible for. Our responsibilities come first before our pleasures, if we are accountable, responsible adults.  Kinda like making sure our kids have shoes before we get the Prada bag.
Thank you for the thought provoking post.
Y


_____________________________

If you think something is too good to be true, it probably is.

(in reply to BeingChewsie)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/4/2008 9:13:26 AM   
Jahnaca


Posts: 726
Joined: 8/28/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings Ygraine

I would like you to think about something for a brief moment.

It isn’t to long ago in our past that mothers had little or no say on the upbringing of their ums, in fact fathers owned them in some societies.  In fact one can say they (wives/mothers) were more slave then our “slaves” today.  Despite all of that we as a species have grown and thrived.  

I certainly respect yours and Kim’s take on this subject, it is very thought provoking, yet, if we as a species were able to raise families in much stricter male dominated households in the past, why can’t it be imagined now?

Jahna

_____________________________

Mass-produced human beings are attractive only to those who expect to be their benevolent mass producers. John Norman

(in reply to ygraine)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/4/2008 9:24:09 AM   
Kimveri


Posts: 781
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
Status: offline 		Howdy, Jahna,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jahnaca
yet, if we as a species were able to raise families in much stricter male dominated households in the past, why can’t it be imagined now?


I have issue with this for one simple reason:

Where is it written/said/suggested that a Gorean man with a free companion is NOT running a strict, male-dominated household??

Submission to a Gorean man (hell, even surrender!) does not equate to slavery. He has the choice of exercising mastery over that surrendered woman or not. Choosing not to exercise mastery need not mean he is no longer dominant. 

Well wishes,

~Kimveri

_____________________________

"You get what you accept."

"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

(in reply to Jahnaca)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/4/2008 9:32:16 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 6619
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cherylmazana

Most simply want the mastery and don’t really care about the Gorean philosophy behind it.


And the problem with this is?

If that's what they are looking for, let them have it.

And if it turns out not to be what they expected, let them reclaim their own freedom.

That is about as tough a lesson in Gorean philosophy as you can give someone who isn't looking in the first place.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Cherylmazana)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/4/2008 9:33:47 AM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline 		Afternoon Dragon,

Nothing special, except for the fact that children are children.

You forgot to add the Dr. in front of the name,  most just use the pen name for the same reason almost everybody refers to Samuel Langhorne Clemens as Mark Twain.
I enjoyed reading R.E. Howard, Cooper, and Defoe, does that say anything about anything that I may or may not pen in the future?

Have a great holiday weekend,
Thadius

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterDragon1963

Greetings and salutations

First I would like to pose a question of my own, I have seen several references to "um", as I sence it refers to children, is there any specific form of children?

Now on to my responce to prior questions.
I have noticed that many Goreans are more concerned with their studies and memorizations of passages from the books than they are of who created them. Some do not even know John Normans real name is John Fredrick Lange Jr. None of my extensive research into the life of John Lange Jr. illustrates or implies in any way that he practises or lives any lifestyle related to the books he has writen. However, I did find that he does enjoy attending star trek conventions. One of John's favorite childhood authors is Edgar Rice Burroghs who wrote many science fictional novels, his first series focused around "mars".

Master Dragon


_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to MasterDragon1963)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/4/2008 9:50:50 AM   
MysticsLily


Posts: 79
Joined: 5/23/2008
Status: offline 		Greetings Masters, free and enslaved
 
I've only finally caught up with this long posting and really felt inclined to respond.  I believe that coming into slavery under the Master actually made me a better parent.  I had one  UM when the Master and I met and most know our pigeon is going on 6 months soon.  As a single parent with no Man to master me I was permissive, non-consistent and from a childhood of former abuse convinced that I would never abuse my UM so I hardly ever punished.  When I met the Master my UM was an unruly brat of the top notch.  So was I.  The Master immediately put the household under new rules, new restrictions and above all, I would be punished severely each time I failed to care for my child by being consistant.  By failing to create structure for my UM, I was failing her as a mother.  I had no structure either, so it was virtually impossible for me to give her any.  Under the structure of a strong and caring Man, who knew I had an UM, I improved.  When my UM had more structure and became better behaved, we spent more time together because we were both more pleasant to be around.  My UM respects and adores the Master and he treats her no different than he does Pigeon.   I agree with what has been said.  A single parent needs to weigh very carefully the choices she makes before deciding to choose this way of life.  She needs to choose with her UMs in mind.  But I also believe that when a parent is unhappy, the UMs suffer.  Regardless if the parent is in a vanilla, chocolate or gorean relationship, or is alone and unhappy. 
 
 
Fading into a second question, some seek Mastery, I'm afraid that the above makes it very clear that I need to be at the feet of a strong Man.  Without tight structure, I unravel.  I submit because biologically and sexually, I have no other choice.  It's part of me.  The Master has the right to free me, but he knows it would destroy me.  Thank the Goddess he likes me where I am, the thought of being free inspires me with terror. 
 
lily
just my .02. 

< Message edited by MysticsLily -- 7/4/2008 9:51:24 AM >

_____________________________

Look, if you want to torture me, spank me, lick me, do it. But if this poetry shit continues just shoot me now please.
~ Lori Petty in Tank Girl

I share my life with she who has set me on fire, Mistress Mystic and we are HouseoftheMystic


(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/4/2008 10:16:36 AM   
ygraine


Posts: 674
Joined: 10/10/2006
Status: offline 		Hi Jahna,
er What Kim said, and I would also clarify that I did not say slaves should not have children, even though many folks feel that. What I am saying is, that women who bring children into a household where the Master is not their father may indeed find other agendas, and she, giving up her rights, may find her children in jeapordy. 
Sorry if I was confusing.  I was refering to the scenario that taboo set up.  I feel it is irresponsible to give up control to a man who is not your child's father.  However, it has worked for people, as we saw in Chewsie and lily's posts.  I am not always right, nor am I the family expert, lord knows. I just know what I myself believe.
Y

_____________________________

If you think something is too good to be true, it probably is.

(in reply to Jahnaca)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/4/2008 10:26:48 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		A question just entered my mind -- when a woman is a slave and she from what i am seeing allows her Master to dictate how her children are raised -- what about the child's real father who is Man.  I am presuming many Men are still involved in their children's lives.... where does it become a woman and a Man raising a child not being together and the Master and the Man raising the child instead of the mother who is a slave? 

Just came up in my head after reading Ygraine's post.

angel

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to ygraine)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/4/2008 10:41:41 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 15304
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Now on to my responce to prior questions. I have noticed that many Goreans are more concerned with their studies and memorizations of passages from the books than they are of who created them. Some do not even know John Normans real name is John Fredrick Lange Jr. None of my extensive research into the life of John Lange Jr. illustrates or implies in any way that he practises or lives any lifestyle related to the books he has writen. However, I did find that he does enjoy attending star trek conventions. One of John's favorite childhood authors is Edgar Rice Burroghs who wrote many science fictional novels, his first series focused around "mars". Master Dragon


All very old news around here, as are discussions of specific philosophers, cultures, and social influences in his novels and other works. And yes, he sees himslef in terms of Gor as a sci-fi writer.

Tim

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 7/4/2008 10:44:53 AM >

_____________________________

Yes, I still update my blog--thanks to all who asked!
http://writingtrue.blogspot.com
Gorean FAQ Threads

(in reply to MasterDragon1963)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/4/2008 10:52:29 AM   
ElizabethAnne


Posts: 1710
Status: offline 		Hello angel,

In a perfect world, ALL adults would put the children's needs first.  The men would work together in doing what is best.  Remember I said needs...not wants. 

I have a really really firm belief, I believe it takes a man to raise a boy to be a man, it takes a woman to raise a girl to be a woman.   I have said this before, and now that my FC's 16 year old son lives with us, and I have a 21 year old daughter, it has confirmed what I believed for so long.   

Take care,

Liz

(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/4/2008 12:22:58 PM   
BeingChewsie


Posts: 1633
Joined: 10/27/2005
Status: offline 		 

My son's bio-dad ceded authority of my um to R from almost day one. He also loathes responsbility, probably more than I do, is very indecisive and very submissive to dominant people...so it wasn't real hard for R to steam roll right over him. He was very happy to have someone else paying the tab for the um.



quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

A question just entered my mind -- when a woman is a slave and she from what i am seeing allows her Master to dictate how her children are raised -- what about the child's real father who is Man.  I am presuming many Men are still involved in their children's lives.... where does it become a woman and a Man raising a child not being together and the Master and the Man raising the child instead of the mother who is a slave? 

Just came up in my head after reading Ygraine's post.

angel


_____________________________

"In fact, it is my contention that most women are accepting of way less than optimal circumstance constantly, and are lucky to be 'snagged' by the right man, if ever. But it is more by happy accident than by their design. "
~Ron and Hup

(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/4/2008 12:35:29 PM   
ModeratorEleven


Posts: 2007
Joined: 8/14/2005
Status: offline 		Please cease the discussion of minors in this thread immediately or it will be removed.

XI


_____________________________

This mod goes to eleven.

(in reply to BeingChewsie)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/5/2008 4:14:59 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 6619
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: online 		Oops.

< Message edited by Aswad -- 7/5/2008 4:15:47 AM >

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to ElizabethAnne)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/5/2008 10:05:27 AM   
Stephann


Posts: 4211
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Los Angeles, CA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jahnaca

It isn’t to long ago in our past that mothers had little or no say on the upbringing of their ums, in fact fathers owned them in some societies.  In fact one can say they (wives/mothers) were more slave then our “slaves” today.  Despite all of that we as a species have grown and thrived.  

I certainly respect yours and Kim’s take on this subject, it is very thought provoking, yet, if we as a species were able to raise families in much stricter male dominated households in the past, why can’t it be imagined now?

Jahna


Hi Jahna,

Not to detract from male dominated households (cough) but as a species we were able to thrive and raise families when, for thousands of years, the most advanced medical technology included leeches, prayer, and drilling holes in heads to allow evil spirits to escape.  Over the course of some 10,000+ years of humanity, it's only been in the past hundred that sterilization of instruments has come to pass.  To suggest that we survived and thrived, doesn't say much for the quality of our existence.

I think the distinction made here, is that for those many thousands of years, women were subjugated to a male-dominant household.  Today, they have the freedom to choose to live in a male dominated society.  This is on par with people who fantasize about living in Medieval times, vice the vast number of poor souls who actually lived in those times with little more than a mud and straw hut to their name.  The freedom of opportunity is what sets the standard for our quality of living apart from our predecessors.

We attended a bondage ball last night, and the irony on the flyer summed it up well: "Celebrate your freedom to be enslaved."

Warm Regards,

Stephan

< Message edited by Stephann -- 7/5/2008 10:06:21 AM >

_____________________________

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Men: Find a Woman here

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Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/5/2008 11:06:20 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 15304
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Tal Stephann,

As long as we're on a history theme--

Men dominated society for good reason---they outnumbered the women. Why? Many of them died in childbirth---often from infections.

In short, a medieval village would be predominantly men.

Tim

_____________________________

Yes, I still update my blog--thanks to all who asked!
http://writingtrue.blogspot.com
Gorean FAQ Threads

(in reply to Stephann)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/5/2008 11:14:53 AM   
Stephann


Posts: 4211
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Los Angeles, CA
Status: offline 		Tal Tim,

Can't say I agree.  For all the women dying in childbirth, there were men being carted off to war and slaughtered on the front lines.  Battles that pre-date the machine gun really were wars of attrition, pitting the numbers of 'our' young men against 'their' young men.  Part of why Muslim men were expected to have more than one wife, was because there were simply more women than men; a man with six widowed sisters would be crippled financially, so she was married off to save him the burden.

In short, the villages balanced because women died in childbirth, and men died fighting each other.  Just my two tarsks, though.

Stephan


_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/5/2008 11:29:00 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 15304
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Hi Stephann,

Yes, we'll have to disagree on this--nor is it a matter of opinion.

The role of war in medieval society is popularly overdramaticized in our movie culture. In particular, travel was extremely difficult and dangerous---you'd be lucky to get to the war. Disease killed astronomically far more men, women and children than war.

True, generally when a man went off to war, he rarely returned---but largely because he'd be unlikely to ever find his way back (poor roads, few maps, illiteracy, bandits).

Ah, the glories of folklore!

Best,

Tim

P.S. I forgot to address the Muslim part--

A key part of the Muslim multiple wives thinking is practical--up to four wives, IF the man can afford them. Many men in medieval societies simply had no wives.

Remember that Mohammad derived his ideas for Islam while travelling with caravans, "correcting" what he saw as misconceptions in the Christian and Jewish ideas he encountered. His approach, thus, is very much of the merchants.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 7/5/2008 12:07:49 PM >

_____________________________

Yes, I still update my blog--thanks to all who asked!
http://writingtrue.blogspot.com
Gorean FAQ Threads

(in reply to Stephann)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/5/2008 1:55:44 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7232
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings Stephan,

I might suggest a bit of research on the subject.

Live well,
Orion


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

Tal Tim,

Can't say I agree.  For all the women dying in childbirth, there were men being carted off to war and slaughtered on the front lines.  Battles that pre-date the machine gun really were wars of attrition, pitting the numbers of 'our' young men against 'their' young men.  Part of why Muslim men were expected to have more than one wife, was because there were simply more women than men; a man with six widowed sisters would be crippled financially, so she was married off to save him the burden.

In short, the villages balanced because women died in childbirth, and men died fighting each other.  Just my two tarsks, though.

Stephan



_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


(in reply to Stephann)
Profile   Post #: 80
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