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RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/29/2008 8:37:09 PM

MzMia

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Thank you very much Thadius, for a well thought out and great answer.

I think it might be easier to find a garden gnome!

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Post #: 101

RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/29/2008 8:53:12 PM

Kirata

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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

What is the role of the male slave/kajirus?

Male slaves, on Gor, are not particularly valuable, and do not command high prices.... An exception to the low prices for males generally is that paid for a certified woman's slave, a handsome male, silken clad, who has been trained to tend a woman's compartments. ~Hunters

Most male slaves in the city were pampered silk slaves, owned by Gorean women who had not yet learned their sex. ~Magicians

K.

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Post #: 102

RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/29/2008 8:54:13 PM

MasterAramis

Posts: 279
Joined: 7/29/2008
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Greetings,

I am a slave, owned by Master Aramis Duval. We are not Gorean, but do live completely as Master and slave. Recently we have read one of the Gor books and would like to read more. In addition, I have wandered onto some Gorean sites previously in the past few years and found that the majority of the outlook and what was said there resonated with me and made sense to my soul in a way that many BDSM sites do not. My Master and I are often frustrated by not finding people who take this lifestyle as seriously as we do. It is no game to us, there is no "scene" nor "play", there is only reality. We have a family, we have jobs, but He is Master and I His slave. Funny thing I find is that on many sites, forums, etc. I see people put down Gorean as "living a fantasy based on fiction" (please don't take offense) yet, I read posts by Goreans and they seem to me to be a lot more grounded in reality than any thing else I read that calls itself Master and slave. I don't wish to be critical of others views here, only that it seems we assign different meanings to the terms. Consequently, I find myself very curious abut Gorean slavery and wonder is anyone can explain to me the key elements and how it differs etc. from other forms of slavery.

Thank you!

anna, slave of Master Aramis Duval

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Post #: 103

RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/30/2008 3:59:14 AM

barelynangel

Posts: 6233
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Hi Anna,

The key elements that make it different is pretty simple, Gorean slaves are owned by Gorean Men. What this means is that the woman and how she is held and kept in slavery and the mindsets and understandings she learns while held in same are because of the Man's perceptions, understandings and outlooks of himself and the world around him because of his identification as a Gorean Man -- which is a concept separate and distinct from the relationships he may have with a woman be she free or slave.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 7/30/2008 4:10:58 AM >

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Post #: 104

RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/30/2008 4:32:30 AM

MasterAramis

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quote:

What this means is that the woman and how she is held and kept in slavery and the mindsets and understandings she learns while held in same are because of the Man's perceptions, understandings and outlooks of himself and the world around him because of his identification

hello angel,

Thank you for your reply. I read the line above and feel that applies to me just the same. The way I am held and the mindset I learn are because of my Master's identification as a Master and His outlook on the world around Him. How do we know whether our outlook is in fact Gorean unless we know what that outlook is? Can anyone explain to me how the daily life of a Gorean slave is and what the expectations are generally? And what type of variations on that exist?

thanks,

anna, slave of Master Aramis Duval

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RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/30/2008 5:01:56 AM

barelynangel

Posts: 6233
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Anna you are missing what i am saying.

quote:

my Master's identification as a Master

A Gorean Man isn't identified by being a Master of a slave. The slavery of a Gorean slave is because a Man IS Gorean. If you want to know if you and your Master in fact live as Goreans -- HE needs to figure out based on being a Man if he is Gorean and then he will decide if he chooses to identify as same. Your actions in your daily life doesn't identify you as Gorean type Master and slave. Gorean slavery exists because the Gorean Man exists. The Gorean Man exists without the slavery. The slavery is on many levels a biproduct (this may be a wrong word, i have a headache from hell this morning lol) of his being Gorean if he chooses to own a slave. Some Gorean Men do not nor do they have to in order to identify as Gorean. Gorean is an identification of a philosophy outside of slavery Men and Women who are Free choose to identify with and as.

You are missing the fact that Gorean slavery isn't a type of slavery, Gorean slavery is simply slavery Men who identify as Gorean hold their slaves in because the Man identifies as Gorean. Its because of his identification that creates the slavery. The Man isn't defined by the slavery, the slavery is defined by the Man being Gorean.

What you see as Gorean slavery is not inherently Gorean, it exists in many forms outside of Gorean, the slavery in and of itself is not Gorean -- the MEN are. The outlook is your Master doing the homework and figuring out if he in fact identifies with Gorean. grins, the daily lives of slaves of Goreans are pretty easy, they exist as their Gorean Masters demand them too. You have as many variations of slave's lives as you have Men who own them.

There are mindsets and understandings in being a Gorean slave because of the Men who own them identify as Gorean. Now these mindsets and understandings can and do exist outside of Gorean slavery, but they exist because of the MEN who own them and their perception and understanding of the world around them that has NOTHING to do with him being a Master of a slave.

If you are asking what the protocols and positoins are of a Gorean slave, that doesn't make it Gorean if you mimic them. Many slaveries utilize the same concepts, protocols and positions found in Gorean slavery.

Perhaps others will help you compare and contrast what you do as a slave to see if you and your Master live Gorean slavery. I won't do it as what you do in your slavery doesn't identify either of you as Gorean.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 7/30/2008 5:18:32 AM >

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RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/30/2008 5:19:16 AM

MasterAramis

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thanks Angel, that helps a little. I think I may have been a little ambiguous in my post. I do not mean that my Master defines Himself or His perceptions by the fact that He owns a slave. He would identify as the same Master regardless of the slave or whether or not He has one.

What would you say a Gorean Master's mindset is? Or how would a Master know if He identifies as a Gorean Master? Are there any Masters reading this post who would not mind answering this for me?

Thank you for taking the time to try to explain!

anna, slave of Master Aramis Duval

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Post #: 107

RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/30/2008 2:19:37 PM

SirZarath

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Tal taboo,

Though not literally a lifestyle Gorean, but more of a lifestyle D/s Dominant, inspired for a part by the books of Gor, I find your question interesting enough to answer to from my personal point of view.

I think there is two types of Masters (well probably more, but for the sake of argument I will just talk of these two): True dominants, who are Masters in the first place because they can master themselves, and loosers who hide their weakness behind a pose of being a Master (Gorean or not). For the latter type, preying on a submissive who has been damaged in the past is the easy way: she would fall for him much easier than a more balanced submissive who would be more able to discern between true and fake Masters. Regretfully I see quite some of those fake Masters in on-line Gorean RP environments and to be honest, I think they are nothing more than predators who take advantage on the weakness and seeking to be dependant slaves.

A true Master, I think, would take pride in having a strong kajira who is well balanced and happy with who she is. There is although a sidenote to put here: some recent studies in psychology have demonstrated that a caring power-exchange relationship can work beneficial on working through negative pasts and some Masters might enjoy to use that capability to help a girl on her path. This can be a rewarding enterprise and should be separated from preying on the weak.

Hope this is of some use to you,

Be well,
Zarath

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Post #: 108

RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/30/2008 2:30:48 PM

SirZarath

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Aww, just noticed I responded to an early question of taboo and misunderstanding what she meant. I thought she was talking about things like an abusive past etc. but now it turns out she feels punished by having children and not by being 'too balanced' or something. Oh well *grins* ... just disregard what I said in the above, although I don't think it's entirly nonsense as such, just not relating to taboo's question.

Regards,
Z

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Post #: 109

RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/30/2008 2:35:16 PM

OrionTheWolf

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirZarath

Tal taboo,

Though not literally a lifestyle Gorean, but more of a lifestyle D/s Dominant, inspired for a part by the books of Gor, I find your question interesting enough to answer to from my personal point of view.

I think there is two types of Masters (well probably more, but for the sake of argument I will just talk of these two): True dominants, who are Masters in the first place because they can master themselves, and loosers who hide their weakness behind a pose of being a Master (Gorean or not).

You should actually try and stay away from using the term "true" for something. From a Gorean perspective there are Good owners and Bad owners, depending on who's value judgement you are using.

quote:

For the latter type, preying on a submissive who has been damaged in the past is the easy way: she would fall for him much easier than a more balanced submissive who would be more able to discern between true and fake Masters. Regretfully I see quite some of those fake Masters in on-line Gorean RP environments and to be honest, I think they are nothing more than predators who take advantage on the weakness and seeking to be dependant slaves.

See the terminology just screws everything up. In BDSM submissive is a noun, where a Gorean uses it as an adjetive. Once you include 99% of the online chatrooms, we are not even talking about offline reality. They are filled with HNG's and fantasy dwellers.

quote:

A true Master, I think, would take pride in having a strong kajira who is well balanced and happy with who she is. There is although a sidenote to put here: some recent studies in psychology have demonstrated that a caring power-exchange relationship can work beneficial on working through negative pasts and some Masters might enjoy to use that capability to help a girl on her path. This can be a rewarding enterprise and should be separated from preying on the weak.

Hope this is of some use to you,

Be well,
Zarath

Replace true Master, with Gorean Man, and I agree for purposes of this post being in the Gorean section. You could also replace it with Strong Man. I strongly warn against uses your mastery to try and help a girl through emotional issues, as it can very likely blow up in your face, I can attest to that first hand.

The essence of what you post I agree with though.

Live well,
Orion

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RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/30/2008 2:40:09 PM

Musicmystery

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I would like to know that when just a few FW manage to so piss off the rest of the men that they no longer post here---just as several men have already left---do you think CM will keep the name of the board, or will they change it to the FW forum?

A Gorean world without all those pesky men. Imagine.

I must have somehow missed that book.

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RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/30/2008 2:58:09 PM

Maahsatti

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Hi Tim,

I'm not sure what is up between the FM and the FW lately, personaly, I would rather stay out of it.
what I would like to say and maybe remind us all is. FM and FW compliment each other, even with our differances and clashings at times. I feel when we challenge each other it brings a bit of flavor but more importantly, growth for both sides.

Thank you for your kind wishes you sent me on the other thread..I got my toesies crossed too...lol

Take care,
Babs

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Gorean women, whether slave or Free,know, that their simple presence, brings joy to men,and I cannot think but that this pleases them.
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Post #: 112

RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/30/2008 3:14:54 PM

Thadius

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I would like to know that when just a few FW manage to so piss off the rest of the men that they no longer post here---just as several men have already left---do you think CM will keep the name of the board, or will they change it to the FW forum?

A Gorean world without all those pesky men. Imagine.

I must have somehow missed that book.

Tal Tim,

To answer the your question, CM will leave it the same, afterall they believe that being Gorean is a kink. There is a side note to that though, somebody I respect a lot likes to say, as soon as the men move on, the women will follow.

I wish you well,
Thadius

P.S. I still think we rate our own mod, but I guess that is a discussion for another day and topic.

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Post #: 113

RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/30/2008 3:18:55 PM

SirZarath

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Tal Orion,

I didn't mean to mess up things with terminology, but still our difference in use of words leads to some thoughts on my side. It's interesting that you speak of Good *owners* and Bad *owners* in stead of Good and Bad Masters. An *owner* is defined by the fact that he owns something, in this case a slave. And of course the mere fact of *owning* a slave, a state of affairs that could theoretically be reached by the mere act of purchasing one, can lead to the situation that the owner is indeed a bad one.

But this is something different than what I meant. I was not using the word *owner* but in stead the word Master. And here is where the confusion arises I think. As in Gor, all Free men are addressed as 'Master' by the kajiri, the term Master gets an entirely different meaning than in the BDSM, D/s and M/s lifestyles, where one is only entitled to the term "Master" by deserving it first or in some other circles, the term is only used by the owned slave towards his/her owner and not towards other dominants (yes, noun again). From this perspective it is possible to speak of true and fake Masters, but I can understand that in Gorean terms this leads to confusion.

Another thought that comes up here is that in the Earthly D/s and M/s circles, consensuality plays an important part and a slave is never 'taken' and rarely 'purchased'. Now, knowing the BDSM lifestyle but the Gorean scene only from on-line environments (where I witnessed things as capturing, force-collaring of slaves etc.), I wonder how in the Gorean lifestyle a slave becomes the slave of a Gorean Free Man. Wouldn't there need to be some sort of consensuality be involved or else the ownership of a slave easily meet legal borders?

Your warning to use ones mastery to help a girl through emotional issues is a very valid one and helping a girl with issues like this should not be taken lightly at all. And I certainly did not want to imply that using mastery to help is necessarily always beneficient, but it *can* be if one knows what ones is doing.

Live well,

Zarath

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RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/30/2008 3:51:29 PM

ElizabethAnne

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Hello Tim,

quote:

I would like to know that when just a few FW manage to so piss off the rest of the men that they no longer post here---just as several men have already left---do you think CM will keep the name of the board, or will they change it to the FW forum?

A Gorean world without all those pesky men. Imagine.

I must have somehow missed that book.

Amazing the power the free women have!!! Wow. Good grief. If "men" left over a "few free women", truly what does that say about them.

This is really ridiculous, whining about how awful free women are, wanting the Mods to see it and take care of us. Then you have another "man" making nasty snide remarks. These are all Gorean traits???

Please tell me which free woman wants the men to disappear? Where is that post...I must have missed it.

Whew....

Liz

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RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/30/2008 3:55:35 PM

OrionTheWolf

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Greetings Zarath,

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirZarath

Tal Orion,

I didn't mean to mess up things with terminology, but still our difference in use of words leads to some thoughts on my side. It's interesting that you speak of Good *owners* and Bad *owners* in stead of Good and Bad Masters. An *owner* is defined by the fact that he owns something, in this case a slave. And of course the mere fact of *owning* a slave, a state of affairs that could theoretically be reached by the mere act of purchasing one, can lead to the situation that the owner is indeed a bad one.

We are in complete agreement here. Many Goreans have owned slaves, and then realize that either they no longer want a slave, they prefer the Free Companion route, or that they are not very good owners. The word Master for Gorean is either 1) denotes an owner of slave/s or 2) an address a slave uses when speaking to a Free Man.

quote:

But this is something different than what I meant. I was not using the word *owner* but in stead the word Master. And here is where the confusion arises I think. As in Gor, all Free men are addressed as 'Master' by the kajiri, the term Master gets an entirely different meaning than in the BDSM, D/s and M/s lifestyles, where one is only entitled to the term "Master" by deserving it first or in some other circles, the term is only used by the owned slave towards his/her owner and not towards other dominants (yes, noun again). From this perspective it is possible to speak of true and fake Masters, but I can understand that in Gorean terms this leads to confusion.

On the BDSM side it still can be somewhat muddied, as different and standards can apply. I think we can universally use "bad people", to describe either. Also, my study of various Eastern philosophies has taught me that mastering ourselves is an ongoing process as we continue to grow.

quote:

Another thought that comes up here is that in the Earthly D/s and M/s circles, consensuality plays an important part and a slave is never 'taken' and rarely 'purchased'. Now, knowing the BDSM lifestyle but the Gorean scene only from on-line environments (where I witnessed things as capturing, force-collaring of slaves etc.), I wonder how in the Gorean lifestyle a slave becomes the slave of a Gorean Free Man. Wouldn't there need to be some sort of consensuality be involved or else the ownership of a slave easily meet legal borders?

Believe me it is just the online uber Gorean Masters that believe in force collarings and such. The slaves I have owned, have begged of me to place a collar on them. The D/s side is seen slightly different from a Gorean perspective as well. Submission is not a gift, it is something that a Man draws forth from a female by just being himself. The female does not usually even see it as a choice, they feel compelled to act naturally and submit. There are still some discussion and disagreement, but I think I have offered the basics and general ideas.

quote:

Your warning to use ones mastery to help a girl through emotional issues is a very valid one and helping a girl with issues like this should not be taken lightly at all. And I certainly did not want to imply that using mastery to help is necessarily always beneficient, but it *can* be if one knows what ones is doing.

Live well,

Zarath

I didin't really object to what you said, just wanted to add the warning in there. I used to believe that I never failed unless I gave up, that was until I tried using my Master to help a slave with some emotional issues she was having. It ended horribly and the effects are still felt till this day. I would say that therapy combined with Mastery would work well, but I am now of the opinion that anyone that gets involved in any kind of relationship, should first get themselves taken care of.

Live well,
Orion

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RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/30/2008 3:59:49 PM

OrionTheWolf

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Tal Tim,

Just do as I am doing, enjoying conversing with the Free Woman that you like through email. Then you will not have to worry about the FW that cause you aggravation. I am actually find a couple of more Free Women that once we found a way to communicate, get along quite well. The ones that feel they have the right to do as they please will continue to challenge, and be an example of how not to be the Free Woman that Men enjoy being around. If it is not plain enough, my comments are not about all Free Women, I refrain from using names any longer because that was used against me long ago.

Live well,
Orion

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I would like to know that when just a few FW manage to so piss off the rest of the men that they no longer post here---just as several men have already left---do you think CM will keep the name of the board, or will they change it to the FW forum?

A Gorean world without all those pesky men. Imagine.

I must have somehow missed that book.

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RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/30/2008 3:59:56 PM

Kimveri

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~FR~

I agree with Liz -- that's an awful lot of power in the hands of a few women.

The man who can be "made" to leave/cease posting/kneel/etc. by a woman should be. Vice versa works too.

I've always had a hard time dredging up any respect for any person (male OR female) who whines about how someone else "made me do it!"...& I don't think that difficulty of mine is going away anytime soon.

~Kimveri

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RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/30/2008 4:03:54 PM

Musicmystery

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ElizabethAnne

Hello Tim,

quote:

I would like to know that when just a few FW manage to so piss off the rest of the men that they no longer post here---just as several men have already left---do you think CM will keep the name of the board, or will they change it to the FW forum?

A Gorean world without all those pesky men. Imagine.

I must have somehow missed that book.

Amazing the power the free women have!!! Wow. Good grief. If "men" left over a "few free women", truly what does that say about them.

This is really ridiculous, whining about how awful free women are, wanting the Mods to see it and take care of us. Then you have another "man" making nasty snide remarks. These are all Gorean traits???

Please tell me which free woman wants the men to disappear? Where is that post...I must have missed it.

Whew....

Liz

An interesting mischaracterization

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RE: Everything you ever wanted to about Goreans, but we... - 7/30/2008 4:09:06 PM

Thadius

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I completely agree about the "making somebody doing something" line being worthless. However, I will state that folks (regardless of gender), will move on when they feel the time they are investing is being wasted.

It is cyclical, kind of like the tides, people clashing is nothing new. I am also not capable of ignoring the fact that more than one board has been destroyed by the drawing of lines in the sand.

Just my opinion,
Thadius

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