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Clarification please - 7/17/2008 8:21:01 AM   
Sylverdawn


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Perhaps someone can help me clarify. There comes around time and time again on the boards no matter what the topic seems to start out as the question of male slaves. What about Gorean males who want to own male slaves.. what does that make them? Does that mean only heterosexual males are allowed to use the term Gorean. Must the focus be on males owning females. I have seen that females wishing to be a slave owner is unnatural. However, JN does make allowances for this. How is that unnatural?  How can something that is there be seen in its application as not right. I’m not trying to cause a conflict I’m truly trying to understand.

In my understanding being Gorean is more about how apply systems of codes and conduct to your behavior and decision making process, about order and place and honor/integrity. Apply all that to a M/s dynamic but that dynamic never being the crux of the philosophy rather an addendum to it. So why does being a male slave or female owner disallow the above. This is in general the type of inconsistancy that makes question the title Gorean.

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“When women are depressed, they eat or go shopping. Men invade another country. It's a whole different way of thinking.” Elyane Boosler

Being a women is hard work Maya Angelou
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RE: Clarification please - 7/17/2008 9:02:13 AM   
Cherylmazana


Posts: 1151
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline 		The problem comes because people keep seeing Gor as some sort of “lifestyle” a form of BDSM complete with slaves etc.

It was never intended to be any of that, they were novels that included philosophy, a series of books for adults to make them look at the world and their behaviour in it.

Male and female slaves have nothing to do with the philosophy, they are metaphors, and owning one doesn’t make you Gorean.

Cheryl

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RE: Clarification please - 7/17/2008 10:21:41 AM   
Sylverdawn


Posts: 1123
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		I understand that cheryl.. but then why does being a submissive male or a non submissive female.. and the concept of one being owned by the other negate being Gorean and thusly unnatural if both concepts occur in the novels from which the philosphy and related lifestyle evolved from. I am constently faced with the ideas found in the novels and the applications of them in life and the inconsistancies that result. The kajirus being a single example of that. I would have no problem with the idea that a female slave owner and a male slave is an abomination of Gor if example of it did not exist in the books. Am I failing to recognize a keystone in my readings and discussions?

< Message edited by Sylverdawn -- 7/17/2008 11:17:30 AM >

_____________________________

“When women are depressed, they eat or go shopping. Men invade another country. It's a whole different way of thinking.” Elyane Boosler

Being a women is hard work Maya Angelou

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RE: Clarification please - 7/17/2008 11:04:55 AM   
Trevelyan


Posts: 528
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Mountain View, CA
Status: offline 		Sylverdawn,

Different people have different ideas about what it means to be "Gorean."  To me, it means sharing the beliefs and values held by the Goreans depicted in the Gor novels, and incorporating those beliefs and values into your life here on Earth.

Goreans in the novels who are not slaves are referred to as free men and women.  JN, at one point, states that the object of Gorean morality is to make people free and great.  I have personally been struggling lately to understand what being free means, especially in light of certain cultural practices on Gor such as the caste system and the way leaders are chosen for the cites.

I have come to the conclusion that the essence of being free is to see yourself as having the ultimate power to make choices about your life.  So a free man living on Gor may choose to follow the caste of his father, but he is aware that he can also choose not to do so.  That choice will have consequences, but it is still his choice.

A slave, by Gorean standards, is someone who has relinquished their freedom - their power to make choices about their lives. 

Because Goreans value their freedom so much, they despise slaves for having relinquished it.  The books reiterates that point over and over, making it clear that Goreans do not even consider slaves to be human beings, and particularly emphasizing how free women hate female slaves.  They are also full of examples of men who have been enslaved but have eventually regained their free status because they never actually relinguished their freedom.  They are also have many, many examples of free women who eventually become slaves because they were never actually fee (in the sense of seeing themselves as having the power to choose and refusing to relinquish it) in the first place.

One other point about Goreans and freedom - they believe that a free man or woman should be free, but that if they actually relinquish their freedom then they should be slaves.

There is a second belief that Gorean's hold that is part of the answer to your question.  Goreans believe in something JN calls the order of nature, which is the idea that evolution has shaped us in such a way that males are bent towards domination and females towards submission.  The vast majority of women on Gor are free.  Many will enter into a free companionship (the closest Gorean equivalent to marriage).  They will still be free, but they will choose to be submissive to their male companions, even to the extent that if they are displeasing the men will chain them naked to the foot of the couch for the night.  A much smaller percentage of women are slaves, and find fulfillment in submission to all men, and not just a free companion.  There are exceptions to the order of nature - women like Verna, and men like the occasionaly male slave who is naturally submissive (I think there was one in Tribesmen) - but most people conform to it.

A third issue is homosexuality.  In the entire series JN gives one example of a male slave who is owned by a homosexual master.  JN gives no examples of lesbian or bisexual females, free or slave.  I think this is mostly a function of the time when he was writing most of the books.

So, finally, to answer your questions:

Can Gorean men own male slaves? - yes, there are many examples of it in the books, but only one where it is sexual, the rest are owned for their labor capacity.

Are only heterosexual males allowed to use the term Gorean? - Not in my opinion.  If a person generally holds the beliefs and values of the Goreans in the books, they are Gorean.  There is at least one example of a homosexual Gorean, and I think that if JN had been writing the books now rather than the 60's, 70's and 80's there would have been more gay and lesbian characters.

Can a female own a male slave?  Yes, there are several examples in the books.  Now, most if not all of those women ended  up in collars themselves, but that is because they were not actually free in the first place.  Silk slaves are male slaves who are proficient in providing sexual service to free women.  This does run counter to the order of nature, but JN says that the order of nature is generally true, not necessarily true for each and every individual.

Does being a male slave disqualify someone from being Gorean?  No, not in my opinion.  A male slave will be dispised for reliquishing his freedom, and will also be considered a little odd for going counter to the order of nature, but if he is willing to be submissive to a women then he should be.

Trevelyan


_____________________________

"In short the differences between the men of Earth and those of Gor were almost certain to be primarily cultural, and not physiological."
Mercenaries of Gor

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RE: Clarification please - 7/17/2008 11:32:38 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7329
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings SylverDawn,

In some circles I have found it common practice to say that the examples in the book are actually Norman/Lange being sarcastic and meaning the opposite. So no matter how many examples that can be provided, they will say it means the opposite. This is how one rationalizes and accept things within a Morality, that they personally disagree with.

I do not see owning male slaves as against the Gorean Morality, but it is against certain flavors of Gorean Philosophy that some people have created. One of these circles is starting to be known as the Gorean Apologists. Anything that may be offensive in the series, they say means the opposite. I believe everyone is entitled to their opinion, but some come off as "Gorean Scripture Thumpers" with their personal interpretations as seen as correct, and all other interpretations are people who are just players.

Live well,
Orion

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


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RE: Clarification please - 7/17/2008 12:11:53 PM   
Sylverdawn


Posts: 1123
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Dear Trevelyn, thank you for the insightful post. I will spend some time pondering it and bring it to my discussion group.

Greetings Orion, while I find that interesting. This is what I take it to mean: It's pretty much a free-for-all and as long as in your own personal group it works who give a flying. I suppose part of the dilemma I have isI interact quite a lot with the leather community here in Dallas. As a result of this I can pretty much anticipate the mores of any leather group no matter what community I am in (Houston, Atlanta, Chicago). I understand the expectations of myself and any submissive I have with me no matter if we are in a dungeon or having lunch with a group in a vanilla setting. Within the Gorean community I am perplexed by the fact that I can't expect the same understanding going from one group to another. These inconsistencies give me pause about the philosophy. I look at the history of the leather community and the history of the growth of Goreanism, they have been around for approximately the same amount of time, while there seems to be a consensus around one and not around the other if this message board is an example of the wider Gorean community. I will admit that other than the few Goreans I have met through my husband and the people who I interact with as a result I am not a goer to Gorean gatherings. Perhaps the issues is that I have no real context to place the opinions of people other than my own immediate circle. While within the leather community I have experience outside of that so I have an understanding of the wider community. The one thing I do know is that this message board inspires discussions in our home but  very few resolutions around my questions/concerns.

_____________________________

“When women are depressed, they eat or go shopping. Men invade another country. It's a whole different way of thinking.” Elyane Boosler

Being a women is hard work Maya Angelou

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RE: Clarification please - 7/17/2008 12:36:13 PM   
Cherylmazana


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Status: offline 		Orion I read the Gorean novels with the knowledge of what John Norman wrote in his non fiction works as well. Its in these non fiction works that he explains what his views are on certain subjects.

Philosophical writings are not simple writings, they are not meant to be children’s books so simple that you can understand them on the first read. They have twists and turns and things meant to illustrate why things are a bad idea as well as why things are a good idea. Unless of course its stories for children and no one here would say these are stories for children.

John Norman in his own words says these are not simple books, that they are adult books not just because of the adult themes but because they have concepts that are not always obvious.

He advocates rape in the Gor novels, but he certainly does not elsewhere, rape is meant to be a sarcastic play on words from the writings of feminists who equated any sex that the woman had not initiated as rape. So is rape ok for Goreans? Not in my eyes because I see the difference between something used as sarcasm IE how can you rape a willing woman, especially one who is begging for it.

His words in non fiction writings and the usual way a philosophical story is written show clearly that you never take anything at face value.

As a child I would read Aeosops fables, did the dog dropping his bone in the pool tell me if I saw something better I should immediately throw what I had away to steal off someone else? No it taught me that a fool tries that when often what is perceived as better isn’t. What is perceived at first glance isn’t always correct; think of that and these books, what is perceived at first glance isn’t always what is right. And when you add an unreliable narrator into the mix it becomes an interesting exercise.

In the same way John Norman devoted a trilogy within the books showing how what seemed like the perfect silk slave kajirus changed and lost his slave morality standing tall as a man refusing to be a toy for petulant women, becoming a Gorean man.

Just because something is in the books, does not mean it is there saying yes!!! Go out and do this, sometimes its there to say this is not right. Just because it is the norm on Earth should it be the norm in your own life.

These books are not BDSM they are philosophy in a science fiction novel and turning them into nothing more than a BDSM adult story cheapens them. Pain does not equal pleasure and male slavery does not equal being Gorean.

If slavery was all there is to Gor then everyone would own one, or are you saying that those who say that Gor is not about slavery are lying? Because while most talk about the philosophy as was shown by the other recently bought up old thread when you ask people to define what they see the philosophy as its only a very, very few can say anything other than the oft repeated honour, integrity etc and then they cant give reasons other than its in the books they certainly cant give detailed reasons why honour is more important than those who lie cheat and steal, after all they are in the books as well. For most the philosophy is simply BDSM with only the laws as limits and that is not philosophy.

Cheryl

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RE: Clarification please - 7/17/2008 12:50:38 PM   
Sylverdawn


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Status: offline 		I would clarify this.. BDSM while some people who are involved in that lifstyle are indeed sadists and masochists that does not in itself define all the people who are involved in it. For some people is is about control, responsiblity, ownership, protocol, ritual, lanugage. To define it as simply as limited to some form of play is to say a steak dinner consists merely of the meat. I do not want to derail this topic to a discussion of the validity of bdsm. Rather I would like to focus on how do Goreans reconcile the inconsistancies found within the novels and how they extrapalate to living as a Gorean.
SD

< Message edited by Sylverdawn -- 7/17/2008 12:52:26 PM >

_____________________________

“When women are depressed, they eat or go shopping. Men invade another country. It's a whole different way of thinking.” Elyane Boosler

Being a women is hard work Maya Angelou

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RE: Clarification please - 7/17/2008 1:35:13 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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Status: offline 		Greetings Cheryl,

If you read my post again, you will find that I only said certain things, and nothing you are implying. I make my own interpretations, and do my own studying.

Live well,
Orion

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


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RE: Clarification please - 7/17/2008 1:36:51 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7329
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings Sylverdawn,

I do not find many inconsistancies in the series. What I find is a lot of how diverse human nature is.

Live well,
Orion


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sylverdawn

I would clarify this.. BDSM while some people who are involved in that lifstyle are indeed sadists and masochists that does not in itself define all the people who are involved in it. For some people is is about control, responsiblity, ownership, protocol, ritual, lanugage. To define it as simply as limited to some form of play is to say a steak dinner consists merely of the meat. I do not want to derail this topic to a discussion of the validity of bdsm. Rather I would like to focus on how do Goreans reconcile the inconsistancies found within the novels and how they extrapalate to living as a Gorean.
SD


_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


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RE: Clarification please - 7/17/2008 1:40:35 PM   
Thadius


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Status: offline 		Afternoon Sylverdawn,

The leather community has been around much longer than a Gorean community.  While there may have been small pockets of folks scattered here and there that were Gorean, there was no "community" at least as we know it today until the use of message boards, newsgroups, chatrooms, and forums allowed people to realize that "Hey, I am not alone in this".  That is just a simple explanation and I hope it makes sense.

Even in the leather community, different clubs, chapters, etc, had/have different protocols and practices, take a look at the "Hanky code" and it's history to get an idea.  While there is a more cohesive structure, there is a simple answer to why.  The things they agree on are the hows and they don't have to ask the whys.  People don't ask why that bootblack enjoys what they are doing, they just accept that she is doing what she likes.  I hope that makes a bit more sense.

When you try to codify the hows for Goreans, it is much like trying to put certain rules of any other group that is based on a philosophy, such as Christianity.  They are all reading pretty much the same book, but have come to different conclussions as to the whys and hows.  Many of their core beliefs are the same, some of their rituals are the same, but there are things that each group will do differently (even if only because of the make up of the group).  For example, some believe in the "Rapture", yet ask them to show you in any translation where the word rapture appears.

I guess the best way to sum this up is...

quote:

“"Do not ask the stones or the trees how to live; they cannot tell you; they do not have tongues; do not ask the wise man how to live, for, if he knows, he will know he cannot tell you; if you would learn how to live, do not ask the question; its answer is not in the question but in the answer, which is not in words; do not ask how to live, but, instead, proceed to do so.”

 
I wish you well,
Thadius

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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RE: Clarification please - 7/17/2008 1:55:57 PM   
Sylverdawn


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Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Greetings Thadius..

I spoke with Him this afternoon about the development of Goreanism and so forth. He too said that while the books had been around since the 60's that infact the concept of a "Gorean community" didnt begin persay until approximately 25 or so years ago. That in developmental structure Gorean is young compare to leather and thusly the structure I am see as lacking is understandable. I hadnt really thought that much about how the community was growing and what stage it might at present be in.

I have seen that quote many times used in the discussion of Gor. And, while I think it is one of the more lovely pieces Norman wrote I find it to be less than helpful. There must be structure and rules to a society in order for that society to exist, grow and fully realize itself. You must be able to pass down teachings to those you wish to follow behind you.

SD

_____________________________

“When women are depressed, they eat or go shopping. Men invade another country. It's a whole different way of thinking.” Elyane Boosler

Being a women is hard work Maya Angelou

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RE: Clarification please - 7/17/2008 2:35:55 PM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
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Status: offline 		Greetings SD,

You are correct about the community being so young, and I would even suggest we are recovering from some of the growing pains.

As for teaching, I guess that is why we constantly see and hear the old refrain "read the books", one must at least have a basic understanding or knowledge in order to build upon.  I have often wondered what would happen if a person that had absolutely no contact with other humans (the perfect human guinnea pig), was given the books to read, how would they react to the captivity, or moreso how would they act if suddenly given their freedom.  Perhaps that is a subject for another thread... Anyways, most of the teaching a Gorean does is by living, the same could be said of learning.

There have been quite a few attempts at bringing the various Gorean communities together, to set some sort of framework for future generations (if they even come), most have ended with the beating of chests and many good intentions have gone down the drain.  Kind of like many of the old Greek city states,  while the ideals were very similar, they still warred amongst themselves,  they were often cruel to each other but look at the misery they brought upon invaders.  My point is, I am not sure that we as Goreans are ready for a "unified" Gorean community, many of us want one, but know there are many more battles to come... It is going to take a group of exceptional men to make that hope into a reality.

A good example from this thread,  Trevelyan said "Does being a male slave disqualify someone from being Gorean?  No, not in my opinion."  Many of the folks I agree with believe that the mere definition of slave precludes them from being Gorean.  I do not despise men that are slaves, I just cannot wrap my head around the wiring involved in it.  You know the old exception to the rule thing, it is something I cannot personally fathom but it is what it is.

Just to touch on a quick thing brought up in your original post, homosexuality.  For many years I ran the debate in my head, the question of whether it was a personal choice or natural wiring.  I have come to the opinion that it is natural wiring.  There are plenty of examples of it in nature, so who am I to disagree.  There are plenty of reasons why nature would cause this kind of evolution (change), to help control population, to prevent a certain gene from being passed on, etc...  So yes I think homosexuality is natural, and that a male or female that is homosexual can be Gorean.

I am sure opinions will differ, but that is what makes these discussion worth while, we all are forced to reflect on our own beliefs and weigh them in the light of scrutiny.

I hope that answered it a bit better,
Thadius

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When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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RE: Clarification please - 7/17/2008 3:23:24 PM   
Sylverdawn


Posts: 1123
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Greetings Thadius: 

For the sake of Goreans lets hope that they do not end like the Greeks did. I appreicate you clarifying your post further. I have read the books, rather I have slogged through them much like a text from a not so favorite professor, and now I turn to my peers looking for explanations and interpretation. However, when I am faced with conflicting views  and theories that seem to be to be inconsistent with the text I need to ask for clarification so that I can better understand the positions and perhaps even the original material.

Peace be with you
SD 

_____________________________

“When women are depressed, they eat or go shopping. Men invade another country. It's a whole different way of thinking.” Elyane Boosler

Being a women is hard work Maya Angelou

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RE: Clarification please - 7/17/2008 3:34:16 PM   
Maahsatti


Posts: 2579
Joined: 8/5/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings Sylverdawn,


IMO, the life I live goes much beyond just the philos represented in the books. While they are a staple of my beliefs,moralities and protocols. My faith is a big part of me as well.
I just can not climb on board with the idea, that a man is or should submit or be submissive. and Homosexuality is a definate subject i will stay away from, do to not having the desire to insult or offend anyone.

Suffice to say, My believe is, that if any male claims to be submissive, he belongs in the BDSM side of the equation and not Gor.
I believe that the majority of men who claim to be slave/sub are so, to feed their own fetish, which comes back to what Thadius pointed out to me in another thread, that those men are at least a slave to their kink/desire. but for me, that is not true slavery/submission, but rather a form of manipulation to get his jollies and quench his kinks.

So no, for me and my opinions, male slaves in Gor is unnatural and has no place.
but these are just my opinions, of course.

I wish you well,
Maahsatti

_____________________________

Gorean women, whether slave or Free,know, that their simple presence, brings joy to men,and I cannot think but that this pleases them.
Outlaw of Gor, pg 54

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RE: Clarification please - 7/17/2008 4:03:26 PM   
Kirata


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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Trevelyan

Because Goreans value their freedom so much, they despise slaves for having relinquished it.  The books reiterates that point over and over, making it clear that Goreans do not even consider slaves to be human beings

Goreans most certainly do consider slaves to be human beings. What the hell do you suppose they imagine them to be? Slaves, being property, simply have no legal standing as persons.

And do you really suppose that female slavery would be legal on Gor, with slave girls so sought after, and good coin paid for them, if they were despised?

By who, besides some Free Women and (apparently) you?

Male slaves are viewed differently of course, particularly willing ones, but only because submission is discordant with the Gorean conception of masculine human nature.

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 7/17/2008 4:23:49 PM >

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RE: Clarification please - 7/17/2008 4:04:50 PM   
Sylverdawn


Posts: 1123
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Greetings Mashatti:
I can see that submission/slavery is a way to feed a kink and or desire. But if that is so, how is that different for a female or more natural for a female? Because feedings ones need and or desire is gender neutral. I don’t think fetish is the correct terminology given the physiological definition of that word.
My question is how do you as a Gorean Free person explain to/define for others like me who are seeking/questioning things that the text puts forth that I call inconsistencies and you simple don’t agree with. You say the philosophy is a starting point and from there you have grown it. Can you tell me the process of that growth so that I too might understand better how you have come to the place where you say: " This is un natural or inappropriate"  because how I read it I don’t think JN is saying that. Or is this stance in fact an incorporation of Gorean text, Christian faith, personal choice resulting in some amalgamation that is personal only to you.

_____________________________

“When women are depressed, they eat or go shopping. Men invade another country. It's a whole different way of thinking.” Elyane Boosler

Being a women is hard work Maya Angelou

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RE: Clarification please - 7/17/2008 4:11:16 PM   
Sylverdawn


Posts: 1123
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Dear Kitra: if it is as you say discordant why do you think JN included it. I mean this is his perfect world where he can create anything he wishes.  Why include it if in the spectrum of natural human male behavior it is as you say unharmonious.  I mean strong women and work animals could do the manual labor. I am not asking you to justify male slavery rather why allow for something that is not appropriate to the Gorean mindset.?

_____________________________

“When women are depressed, they eat or go shopping. Men invade another country. It's a whole different way of thinking.” Elyane Boosler

Being a women is hard work Maya Angelou

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RE: Clarification please - 7/17/2008 4:20:40 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 7246
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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sylverdawn

if it is as you say discordant why do you think JN included it. I mean this is his perfect world

Where do you get that idea? Gor attempts to portray the realities of human nature.
 
K.
 

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RE: Clarification please - 7/17/2008 4:24:33 PM   
Sylverdawn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Male slaves are viewed differently of course, particularly willing ones, but only because male slavery is discordant with the Gorean conception of masculine human nature.

K.




I believe I was responding to what you said.

_____________________________

“When women are depressed, they eat or go shopping. Men invade another country. It's a whole different way of thinking.” Elyane Boosler

Being a women is hard work Maya Angelou

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