Collarchat.com

Create a
Free Account		 As the Collar Turns:
 Collarchat.com - BDSM Forum

Home  Login  Search 
Espanol  Deutsch  Francais  Italiano  Portugues 

the books


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Gorean Lifestyles >> the books Page: [1] 2 3 4 5   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
the books - 8/10/2008 11:58:50 AM   
patina


Posts: 493
Joined: 9/14/2006
From: no
Status: offline 		greetings Masters--Free and all others

i was at a munch about 2 weeks ago and a Dom remarked that he was confused as to why Norman wrote the type of books he did when he stated in his books he hated women.  As this one due to Gor protocol is not to argue with men she just casually remarked she had never read that in any of his books. 

Have any of you here read any comment that women were hated by Norman or other men in the books?   

Thank you for your time.

patina

_____________________________

a diamond in the rough
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: the books - 8/10/2008 12:14:14 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 16536
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Hi patina,

BDSM people love to hate Goreans. First, we defy their rules by not using safe words. But mostly, they're just honestly confused.

Norman doesn't "hate" women. He does note in several places that he sees each gender as having a biological role and a psychological leaning based on evolution. This rhetoric, however (and Norman speaks of easy rhetoric in several places too), come from the feminist accusations flung about as the series started, particularly the overstatements and cliches thrown about--cliches that continue today, even though women themselves feel the falsehood.

Norman is about men being men and women being women--and when both do, we enhance each other, feeding each other's natures. Just look at all the men in the books who fall in love with their slaves--not to mention all the women who find happiness with a man who understands their nature.

Hatred of women? Not at all. Exactly the opposite--loving all that women are.

But not the distortion society presents.

Just as an analogy, consider-------

A movie that presents murder, robbery, and other crimes can be rated PG. But if people are naked, or discuss sex? R. If they have sex? X.

Is this not a fucked up view?

That was my analogy, but generally, that's the kind of thing Norman discussed.

Nor is that at all the whole of Gorean thought---it's just addressing this one small part you raised in your question.

Best,

Tim

_____________________________

Yes, I still update my blog--thanks to all who asked!
http://writingtrue.blogspot.com
Gorean FAQ Threads

(in reply to patina)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: the books - 8/10/2008 12:20:37 PM   
opposingtwilight


Posts: 684
Joined: 6/13/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

BDSM people love to hate Goreans. First, we defy their rules by not using safe words. But mostly, they're just honestly confused.



Well, sweeping generalizations on either side don't help much.


_____________________________


(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: the books - 8/10/2008 12:33:11 PM   
hopelessfool


Posts: 988
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		Tim,

I do not speak for everyone in D/s, but I can speak for my friends and myself.

I do not hate Goreans as a whole but a few select idiots who can not accept not everyone is or wishes to be gorean and attempts to shove it down my throat...Same for people who believe D/s must be this way or that way.  I like a lot of aspects of the Gorean culture. I have many a friend who is Gorean. They respect me I respect them.

I can see how people who are D/s would classify norman as a woman hater (from what Ive read)... What do you do when a slave does wrong, Get rid of her or kill her. She isnt pleasing, dispose of her. While many men might Love their slaves, many say they will never respect them. And if you cant respect your property, you can dispose of her at will, how can you at all care for women. They are lower in most cases then livestock, in fact I think there was a reference in one of the begining books that women WERE livestock.

Norman writes of what he grew up with... But we as people change, and women and men their roles change with that movement. We started where men and women were equal, half the year by the mother (spring summer where things were growing and nurtured) half the year by the father( where things were harsh and cruel and needed hard work). Then we got into the Women are better then men because Women could give birth... then a couple hundred years later, Men were better then women because they were stronger, then a couple centruys later we were near equal again with fear of both male and female gods, then when one god religions swept the world Men were better then women again.

I dont know if either gender is naturally anything, I cant tell you if Normans right or wrong. But I think the problem with people clashing is because No one can sit back and honestly say. Well I dont know, I can see your point of view but I dont know if its for me or if I prescribe to it. But I accept you for who you are and what you think...

Lucky Albatross made a comment on another thread about a real life munch where the announcer said "heres something youve never seen before folks" and she replied "what kinky people being polite to each other."

And its true, So many people are if It isnt MY way it isnt the right way and I cant like you.


_____________________________

" I have nothing left to give, I have found the perfect end, You remain to make it hurt, disappear in to the dirt, carry me to heavens arms.....Dear Agony Just let go of me, suffer slowly, is this the way its gotta be, Dear Agony...."

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: the books - 8/10/2008 12:40:55 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 16536
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		~FR~

We might also mention the inability to stay on topic.

I believe the OP was speaking about Norman and his views of women. My remarks about BDSM were glib, I admit, and not based on a scientific survey (although they are my synopsis of comments thrown around here and elsewhere over the years).

I do know and like some BDSM people. I also don't care at all what BDSM people think of Goreans (probably why I've never attended a munch--but I've heard many people come back from munches with similar dismissals to the one the OP raised).

And btw, Goreans also roll their eyes at the morons who try to throw thier "Gorean" weight around. After all, everyone is self-declared, and so certainly misconceptions readily abound.

But that's all fodder for a different thread than the OP initiated.

Best,

Tim



_____________________________

Yes, I still update my blog--thanks to all who asked!
http://writingtrue.blogspot.com
Gorean FAQ Threads

(in reply to hopelessfool)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: the books - 8/10/2008 12:45:47 PM   
hopelessfool


Posts: 988
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		I think I stayed on topic quite well, explaining why I think  why people might think Norman a woman hater, as well as references from what Ive read of the books that show how people might come to this conclusion of being a w/h. I think being able to throw away someone whos dedicated themselves to soley serving you. Shows a distinct hate for women. And this is mentioned repeatedly throught out the books.

_____________________________

" I have nothing left to give, I have found the perfect end, You remain to make it hurt, disappear in to the dirt, carry me to heavens arms.....Dear Agony Just let go of me, suffer slowly, is this the way its gotta be, Dear Agony...."

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: the books - 8/10/2008 12:53:05 PM   
opposingtwilight


Posts: 684
Joined: 6/13/2008
Status: offline 		I don't think he appreciated my comment about sweeping generalizations.

Frankly, I think JN had some serious issues about human beings in general, not just women ... But thats just me.

He did a fine job of bringing together various cultures and philosophies that had existed throughout human history and presenting them in such a way as to become their own distinct culture and philosphy. I will give him that much.

Beyond that, I think that it is easy to confuse the way some Goreans interact with woman hating because it can often be so very different from society's accepted norm. Then again, its often easy to confuse a healthy BDSM relationship with codependency and abuse for the very same reason. Its different.

eta

Furthermore, I think that haters of either sex can find an easy hiding place within Gor or BDSM because they can often excuse some of their behaviour for simply being their 'kink' or being their philosophy or what have you. Eventually they get caught but the smart ones can stay under the radar for quite some time. This also adds to the confusion.


< Message edited by opposingtwilight -- 8/10/2008 12:54:55 PM >

_____________________________


(in reply to hopelessfool)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: the books - 8/10/2008 12:53:21 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 16536
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		I believe I missed the part of your post where you mentioned anything even remotely resembling those points.

Ironically, THIS is something Norman discusses about women quite frequently.

If you read back, I actually admitted where I'd overstepped and stepped back. You rushed forward with bullshit I never said, claiming points you never made.

You have fun. I'm going to find a better way to spend my time.

_____________________________

Yes, I still update my blog--thanks to all who asked!
http://writingtrue.blogspot.com
Gorean FAQ Threads

(in reply to hopelessfool)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: the books - 8/10/2008 12:55:52 PM   
opposingtwilight


Posts: 684
Joined: 6/13/2008
Status: offline 		Throwing down your toys and going home is also an effective tool in dealing with a difference of opinion.

_____________________________


(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: the books - 8/10/2008 12:58:03 PM   
hopelessfool


Posts: 988
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		I simply explained where I believed I was on topic, and had not missed the topic at hand. I saw you were you pointed out that you went a totally wrong way, but seeing as you pointed out that you missed where I showed my on-topic post, I reposted it where its a bit more easily seen.

I also agree with OTs comments, That its the actions of what people see of Some goreans, that cause them to believe that is what norman must have wrote because that is the lifestyle that they are following.

Just as people think What they see on tv about BDSM is how it is because thats what they are putting on tv.


_____________________________

" I have nothing left to give, I have found the perfect end, You remain to make it hurt, disappear in to the dirt, carry me to heavens arms.....Dear Agony Just let go of me, suffer slowly, is this the way its gotta be, Dear Agony...."

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: the books - 8/10/2008 1:10:44 PM   
patina


Posts: 493
Joined: 9/14/2006
From: no
Status: offline 		Greetings

Thank you Master Tim,  this one tried to explain to the dom but he was adamant he was right so she just let him talk his own way.  She could see he would never change his mind and it is not a slaves place to argue with a man.  She was taught well,  she does not hide she prefers Gor but she does not push it on to others either.  she tells all interested  masters she likes the Gor way of life. 

We could slam both side of the lifestyle here very easily the Dom's who tell a girl you are to do as I say now or you are not a real sub/slave when all they want is some cyber sex.  She just dealt with two of them this past week, she has learned during her training to no longer cuss them out but to refise to do so respectfully then block, some she just blocks.   

she herself always thought that Norman portrays men as loving women  in the books.  How many times does it have Tarl thinking about how pleasant it is to own or be with a woman, Yes he would even think about how he could kill her if he desired but he seldom desired.  The books had few women actualky killed or hurt in them, whipped or disciplined yes but not hurt beyond endurance.  It seems most just open a book and read at random and that is the problem they don't know the circumstances of the story line at that point.

again thank you for your remarks.

take care all

patina

   

_____________________________

a diamond in the rough

(in reply to hopelessfool)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: the books - 8/10/2008 1:11:46 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 16536
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: opposingtwilight

Throwing down your toys and going home is also an effective tool in dealing with a difference of opinion.


Naw.

I just hate women.

And I know a fucking pointless waste of time when I see one. Characterize it anyway you wish.

Don't forget the one where I was scared off by a strong woman. That's one of my most favorite--and convenient--cliches.

Wow! Meaningful discussion now! You rock! Were you on a debating team or something?

_____________________________

Yes, I still update my blog--thanks to all who asked!
http://writingtrue.blogspot.com
Gorean FAQ Threads

(in reply to opposingtwilight)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: the books - 8/10/2008 1:13:48 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 16536
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: patina

Greetings

Thank you Master Tim,  this one tried to explain to the dom but he was adamant he was right so she just let him talk his own way.  She could see he would never change his mind and it is not a slaves place to argue with a man.  She was taught well,  she does not hide she prefers Gor but she does not push it on to others either.  she tells all interested  masters she likes the Gor way of life. 

We could slam both side of the lifestyle here very easily the Dom's who tell a girl you are to do as I say now or you are not a real sub/slave when all they want is some cyber sex.  She just dealt with two of them this past week, she has learned during her training to no longer cuss them out but to refise to do so respectfully then block, some she just blocks.   

she herself always thought that Norman portrays men as loving women  in the books.  How many times does it have Tarl thinking about how pleasant it is to own or be with a woman, Yes he would even think about how he could kill her if he desired but he seldom desired.  The books had few women actualky killed or hurt in them, whipped or disciplined yes but not hurt beyond endurance.  It seems most just open a book and read at random and that is the problem they don't know the circumstances of the story line at that point.

again thank you for your remarks.

take care all

patina

   


I'm going to step aside, patina.

I truly hope the discussion proceeds more productively from here.

I wish you well.

Tim

_____________________________

Yes, I still update my blog--thanks to all who asked!
http://writingtrue.blogspot.com
Gorean FAQ Threads

(in reply to patina)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: the books - 8/10/2008 1:18:08 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 7246
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hopelessfool

What do you do when a slave does wrong, Get rid of her.... She isnt pleasing, dispose of her.... [If] you can dispose of her at will, how can you at all care for women.

Why the fuck should anyone "care for women" as a class? People are unique. You take them as you find them, male or female or otherwise. The ones you like, you keep; as slaves, as partners, as friends. The one's you don't, you cross off your list. Get over it. There is nothing "special" about you just because you're female.

K.




< Message edited by Kirata -- 8/10/2008 1:19:31 PM >

(in reply to hopelessfool)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: the books - 8/10/2008 1:24:26 PM   
hopelessfool


Posts: 988
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: hopelessfool

What do you do when a slave does wrong, Get rid of her.... She isnt pleasing, dispose of her.... [If] you can dispose of her at will, how can you at all care for women.


Why the fuck should anyone "care for women" as a class? People are unique. You take them as you find them, male or female or otherwise. The ones you like, you keep; as slaves, as partners, as friends. The one's you don't, you cross off your list. There is nothing "special" about you just because you're female, though I grant that this bizarre notion has a rather tight grip on modern society. Around here, it would be best to get over it. 



Im saying that because this is posted in the book to me its clearly  I dont like/hate  women, stance. It shows people who are human beings as disposable creatures with no value because they didnt sneeze several times in a row as their owner demanded.

ETA:  (Hence how I can see people who are NOT Gorean could see Norman as a person who Hates women)


< Message edited by hopelessfool -- 8/10/2008 1:25:30 PM >

_____________________________

" I have nothing left to give, I have found the perfect end, You remain to make it hurt, disappear in to the dirt, carry me to heavens arms.....Dear Agony Just let go of me, suffer slowly, is this the way its gotta be, Dear Agony...."

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: the books - 8/10/2008 1:30:28 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 7246
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hopelessfool

It shows people who are human beings as disposable creatures with no value because they didnt sneeze several times in a row as their owner demanded.

I repeat, get over it. If a man doesn't want a girl who won't sneeze when she's told, so what? Another man will prefer her. You're just bitching -- hopelessly, I might add.
 
K.
 

(in reply to hopelessfool)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: the books - 8/10/2008 1:34:21 PM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		chuckles, well i guess MOST slave societies in history must have been women-hating societies if a Male property owner could do away with female property however he chose.   So by your statements hopelessfool, most people who believe norman was a woman hater because he used such a legality  are pretty ignorant of history and/or view those slavery holden societies as women haters? 

Wow imagine that -- a Man being smart enough to do away with property that cost more than her value to him was.  Wow crazy concept, you have a slave whose value to you is less than her cost to you and well hell out of the sake of not caring about ALL women, you do away with her instead of keeping her around as deadweight around your neck.  Last i understood, deadweight usually needs to be shed, no matter how "devoted" that deadweight is -- its still well deadweight.  And maybe, just maybe that deadweight would become live weight under the hold of a different Man.  But damnit all -- its all about the slave's wanting to belong to a man and damnit that Man should feel honored and keep her around just for the hell of it because god forbid he do away with her because he hates all women. And for the record, MOST of the slaves on Gor were captive slaves so for many their devotion only went as far as the law held them to the power of the person who owned them.  Not all women slaves on Gor were the main character slaves of the fantasy.

Only ignorant people would associate the legalities of the Men being allowed to do with property who happened to be mostly female what they will as a concept of hating women, because most people know most historical slaveries allowed this and that is what they would associate it with -- not an direct hating of a gender.  To me only someone ignorant of history would think the legalities of allowing property owners to do with what they wished as an association of someone hating a gender. 

angel


< Message edited by barelynangel -- 8/10/2008 1:39:36 PM >

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: the books - 8/10/2008 1:43:42 PM   
hopelessfool


Posts: 988
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		Actually I Never ONCE said I saw norman as a woman hater. But I can see with the actions of people who follow a Gorean lifestyle, How they treat their slaves and prescribe to being Gorean,(Again I will state not all but some) as well as the text if taken SIMPLY from CONTEXT... How other people could see him as a person who hates women.

But then again you wish to tear apart and simply take from a post what you wish instead of fully reading it, so its simply a waste of breath. From what Ive read I can take a "I dislike women tone" from his writing, mostly because the writing is in attack/response to the feminist movement. (Which it was, so if your attacking or responding to women gaining power wouldnt it be seen as an I have a problem with women)

But If all you read from something or hear from something is negative, as well as all you recieve in response from an honest answer is people getting annoyed that you prescribe to a different belief system, of COURSE people are going to believe is what they see.

But then Its again foolish to even attempt to have you see something other then what it is you wish to see, so Im going to spend my time reading...

< Message edited by hopelessfool -- 8/10/2008 1:44:49 PM >

_____________________________

" I have nothing left to give, I have found the perfect end, You remain to make it hurt, disappear in to the dirt, carry me to heavens arms.....Dear Agony Just let go of me, suffer slowly, is this the way its gotta be, Dear Agony...."

(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: the books - 8/10/2008 2:07:51 PM   
opposingtwilight


Posts: 684
Joined: 6/13/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: opposingtwilight

Throwing down your toys and going home is also an effective tool in dealing with a difference of opinion.


Naw.

I just hate women.

And I know a fucking pointless waste of time when I see one. Characterize it anyway you wish.

Don't forget the one where I was scared off by a strong woman. That's one of my most favorite--and convenient--cliches.

Wow! Meaningful discussion now! You rock! Were you on a debating team or something?


No kidding!

The name calling is classic.

eta

You're the only one throwing non-productive comments out there, by the way. Neither hopelessfool nor I have felt the need to resort to name calling or walking away in a huff.

And aside from your opening statement which was a massively sweeping generalization that only breeds greater confusion, I didn't disagree with anything you said. I simply stated my own point of view, as did hopelessfool.


< Message edited by opposingtwilight -- 8/10/2008 2:11:49 PM >

_____________________________


(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: the books - 8/10/2008 2:23:32 PM   
opposingtwilight


Posts: 684
Joined: 6/13/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

Only ignorant people would associate the legalities of the Men being allowed to do with property who happened to be mostly female what they will as a concept of hating women, because most people know most historical slaveries allowed this and that is what they would associate it with -- not an direct hating of a gender.  To me only someone ignorant of history would think the legalities of allowing property owners to do with what they wished as an association of someone hating a gender. 

angel


Good point, angel.

Unfortunately, there are many ignorant people in the world ...


_____________________________


(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 20
Page:   [1] 2 3 4 5   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Gorean Lifestyles >> the books Page: [1] 2 3 4 5   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2012
Collarchat.com is a member of the Free Speech Coalition
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.188