Can theapists commit you to a mental hospital for admiting past suicide attempts in therapy sessions

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Can theapists commit you to a mental hospital for admit... - 8/25/2008 2:44:04 PM

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I know someone, and no it's not code for it's really me I'm talking about, who has a ton of mental issues, should be on meds can't afford them, and won't accept private help to get them, and really should be in cousoling for his many issues, but won't go.

He says he'll never consider therapy because if he goes he thinks they will have him commited against his will because he's so mentally fucked up and has a history of trying to kill himself going way back to age 13. And is still chronically suicidal, He never threatens suicide any more, cause I raised hell w/ith him every time he suggested it to me, or used it as a manipulation tool* yes he admits he used it to manipulate sometimes* But he still has feelings and thoughts and issues with it.

My question is, and my understanding is, that unless you're actively threatining to kill yourself, or do bodily harm to someone else right there IN SESSION therapists can't take actions against you like that, for actions thoughts and feelings of the past and feelings you haven't acted on. He has had thoughts of suicide up to as recently as 4 months ago, never acted on it, just thoughts.

Am I on the right track there? Cause I've always been told by my therapist, that actions of the past can not be acted* ie bringing the law in or putting one in an institution* apon unless I am clearly a direct threat to myself or others that moment in therapy by stating I intend to go home and do bodily harm.

I really don't know 100 percent for sure though.

RE: Can theapists commit you to a mental hospital for a... - 8/25/2008 2:49:19 PM

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It probably depends on your local laws & codes, either state, county, or town wide. I do know someone who told his wife he was thinking of ending it all & killing himself. She was so worried, she called the police. The people in the white coats came & took him away for 3 days while he was evaluated. It does happen.

(in reply to YourhandMyAss)

RE: Can theapists commit you to a mental hospital for a... - 8/25/2008 4:17:45 PM

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You are slightly off. You can check the internet using the search term "involuntarily committed". The generally accepted rule throughout the US is that someone can be committed against their will if they are deemed to be a danger to themselves, others or property. The property clause would include things such as arson, bombing, theft, etc., even if no person was in a building or vehicle.

The signs would not necessarily have to be demonstrated during a session but could be reported to a psychologist, psychiatrist, doctor, etc. by an outside party. Something could be said at a workplace, for instance, that might lead to having police called to take the person to an emergency room where the physician on staff could have the person held in the psychiatric ward.

You are correct that it needs to be a present issue, not one from the past. You may feel that you are doing the best thing by discouraging talk of suicide but not being able to say it aloud does not mean that the feelings go away. A number of years ago I took an overdose of antidepressants trying to kill myself and outsiders were shocked. I seemed so capable, so together, never showing much emotion but always staying calm, never speaking of being depressed or feeling suicidal. If someone brings it up there is a problem. If they are serious about it there is one type of problem, if they are using it for pity there is another. In either case the person needs help.

If he is afraid to seek medical help maybe you can have him get in touch with a suicide hotline. Buy a disposable and untraceable phone if he seems paranoid about it. If he won't take over the counter medications try St. Johns Wort and Omega-3 fish oil tablets - that combination has been very effective for me, and I have dealt with depression for over 20 years. Don't blame him for the depression or tell him to snap out of it - he would if he could. It has to do with a chemical imbalance in the brain. Similar to something like diabetes, you can't be held responsible for getting it but you can be held responsible for how you choose to deal with it. Let him know that it doesn't just affect him but also you and anyone else close to him. Sometimes depressed people forget to look outside of themselves.

Typically, a psychiatric hold on a suicidal patient is a minimum of 24 hours, 72 for appearing to be ready to harm another. If the hospital sees that the problems are severe enough then they need to take the issue to court and a judge will make a ruling on behalf of the "incapacitated" person.

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RE: Can theapists commit you to a mental hospital for a... - 8/25/2008 5:18:53 PM

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I realize that by not talking about it the feelings do not go away, however it's just to upsetting to me and the trust I am supposed to have in them for them to be talking about it, specially when they only mentioned it during a fight or when they flew off the handle and brought it up dureing an already intense and angry argument.

I don't blame him for the depression, but I do blame him for using it as a crutch all the time to excuse being an unreliable person, or to emotionally black mail me with it.

Trust me, he knows it's affecting me and he still refused to get help.

quote:

ORIGINAL: chamberqueen

You may feel that you are doing the best thing by discouraging talk of suicide but not being able to say it aloud does not mean that the feelings go away.

you can't be held responsible for getting it but you can be held responsible for how you choose to deal with it. Let him know that it doesn't just affect him but also you and anyone else close to him. Sometimes depressed people forget to look outside of themselves.

(in reply to chamberqueen)

RE: Can theapists commit you to a mental hospital for a... - 8/25/2008 6:28:09 PM

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Hello,
I have some information to share about this. I prefer to respond privately in c-mail and hope you don't mind.

Best,
aj

(in reply to YourhandMyAss)

RE: Can theapists commit you to a mental hospital for a... - 8/25/2008 7:04:05 PM

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I have several friends who have occasionally been suicidal, and not only will the therapist not have them committed for past attempts, they also won't have them commited for "Wah, wah, look at me" attempts. They're well-versed in manipulative action and can typically tell when a client is just wanting sympathy. While I'm sure they err of the side of caution, they also will call bullshit on attention whoring.

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RE: Can theapists commit you to a mental hospital for a... - 8/29/2008 7:03:08 PM

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As far as I know, in the United States, a person can only be involuntarily commited if they are currently a danger to either themself or others. I was put in a psychiatric hospital using this procedure when I was quite a bit younger. If the authorities were allowed to commit people for behaviors and thoughts from the past, a fair portion of the entire population would be in facilities! If you want to know more, you can contact me privately through my profile.

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RE: Can theapists commit you to a mental hospital for a... - 8/29/2008 7:14:47 PM

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quote:

As far as I know, in the United States, a person can only be involuntarily commited if they are currently a danger to either themself or others.

I'm too lazy to Google it, but it at least used to be that they could put you in for 72 hours if anyone in authority (A judge, a police officer, a shrink... ) claimed you were a danger to yourself or others. After that if they want to keep you in, they have to back up their assertion with quite a bit of evidence.

(in reply to lonelyblueboi)

RE: Can theapists commit you to a mental hospital for a... - 8/29/2008 7:18:52 PM

impishlilhellcat

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I don't know if they can commit you, but I do know by law they have to report it

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RE: Can theapists commit you to a mental hospital for a... - 8/29/2008 7:19:39 PM

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Sorry, nope, they can't just "claim" you're a danger to yourself or others, they have to have documentation. Usually the patient themself happily provides the documentation by saying they cannot guarantee they won't kill themself, or by saying something like 'if you let me go, I will kill (that person).'

Cali

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RE: Can theapists commit you to a mental hospital for a... - 8/29/2008 7:28:31 PM

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If your over the age of 18 and do something that is deemed to be a harm to others, you can be commited. Mind you saying how much you hate your life while cutting up food for dinner, can be seen as harm to yourself or others. All you need is one freaked out person to make a complaint to the police. If you have prior attempts, like the police being there to fix things ambulences and such (while they cant legally hold this against you...) Their opinion on how the situation should be assessed matters, and if the freaked out person reacts as many do, exerating, you can be commited, even if all you were doing was cutting up carrots for dinner saying how much your life sucks. All freaked out person has to say (if neighbor or in same building or roomate) is Im afraid to sleep at night with this person near me. Bam your in for 72 hours, refuse to take your meds, Another day dont get up on time every day Another days added, Dont add to group sessions, another day, Call the shrink a fraud in a white coat get a shot in your butt and your in there for a week min...

And Katie some shrinks get so fed up of the wah wah look at me shit, they commit you just to get you to stop asking for the attention.

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(in reply to impishlilhellcat)

RE: Can theapists commit you to a mental hospital for a... - 8/29/2008 7:34:14 PM

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No reason so many people are afraid of therapists sometimes lol.

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RE: Can theapists commit you to a mental hospital for a... - 8/29/2008 7:42:09 PM

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Your therapist can not commit you for past suicide attempts.
The only thing that they can do is assess you for your current suicide risk level.
If they think you are RIGHT NOW a danger to yourself or others then can recommend that you be evaluated by a hospital.
Usually they'll try to get you to voluntarily go in for an evaluation.

Current level of suicidality is basically assessed by whether you have the three red flags means, method and motive.

For example: If you say "I want to kill myself with a gun" and your therapist questions you and finds out that you don't have access to a gun nor a method of getting access to one, then you're lacking means.

Sometimes if you have 2 out of 3, the therapist will try to get you to sign a contract or make a verbal agreement that you won't do anything to yourself before the next session. If you have 3 out of 3, they may go as far as suggesting a 72 hour hold for evaluation in a hospital.

Many, many people have had past suicide attempts. Past attempts is exactly why he SHOULD be in therapy. These are the types of concerns that you can raise with a therapist before you have your first session over the phone. I would have him write down what he wants to ask them in advance and just read it to the therapist. Something like "I have a history of suicidality and I want to be comfortable talking about it in sessions. What are your guidelines for assessing suicide risk in session?"

(in reply to YourhandMyAss)

RE: Can theapists commit you to a mental hospital for a... - 8/29/2008 7:44:10 PM

michaelOfGeorgia

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if they could, i'd be there now.

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RE: Can theapists commit you to a mental hospital for a... - 8/29/2008 7:45:20 PM

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quote:

don't know if they can commit you, but I do know by law they have to report it

ORIGINAL: impishlilhellcat

Actually, reporting is only if you have threatened the life of someone else or there is suspected child abuse.

examples:
" I'm going to go home and beat the hell out of my wife" not reportable
"I'm going to go home and kill my wife with a knife" reportable
"I'm going to go home and beat my kid" reportable
" I'm going to go jump off a bridge" not reportable but possible 72 hour hold material

(in reply to impishlilhellcat)

RE: Can theapists commit you to a mental hospital for a... - 8/29/2008 7:48:15 PM

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From: circusofthedamned
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quote:

ORIGINAL: YourhandMyAss

I know someone, and no it's not code for it's really me I'm talking about, who has a ton of mental issues, should be on meds can't afford them, and won't accept private help to get them, and really should be in cousoling for his many issues, but won't go.

He says he'll never consider therapy because if he goes he thinks they will have him commited against his will because he's so mentally fucked up and has a history of trying to kill himself going way back to age 13. And is still chronically suicidal, He never threatens suicide any more, cause I raised hell w/ith him every time he suggested it to me, or used it as a manipulation tool* yes he admits he used it to manipulate sometimes* But he still has feelings and thoughts and issues with it.

My question is, and my understanding is, that unless you're actively threatining to kill yourself, or do bodily harm to someone else right there IN SESSION therapists can't take actions against you like that, for actions thoughts and feelings of the past and feelings you haven't acted on. He has had thoughts of suicide up to as recently as 4 months ago, never acted on it, just thoughts.

Am I on the right track there? Cause I've always been told by my therapist, that actions of the past can not be acted* ie bringing the law in or putting one in an institution* apon unless I am clearly a direct threat to myself or others that moment in therapy by stating I intend to go home and do bodily harm.

I really don't know 100 percent for sure though.

If the therapist even suspects that you are a danger to yourself or another they can call in a 5150 and have you commited against your will for 72hrs. No if's and's or butt's - they are required by law.

If I ever told a therapist the whole truth and nothing but the truth, they'd never let me back out.

To Please and be Pleasing to Him. Always, in All ways.

(in reply to YourhandMyAss)

RE: Can theapists commit you to a mental hospital for a... - 8/29/2008 7:53:10 PM

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No, Julianna, that's just not true. They have to do more than SUSPECT it. This isn't the 1950's.

Cali

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(in reply to Juliannadelion)

RE: Can theapists commit you to a mental hospital for a... - 8/29/2008 7:54:14 PM

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wrong topic

< Message edited by ViciousCycle -- 8/29/2008 7:55:09 PM >

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RE: Can theapists commit you to a mental hospital for a... - 8/29/2008 9:36:27 PM

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the exact critera depends on each state and sometimes county.

as has been mentioned there generally has to be a plan and intent. if there is a history of previous attempts or illness though the critera can be a bit looser. about the only time a judge gets involved is if a family member starts seeking to have the individual institutionalized, or there is legal issues, or the question of compenitacy comes up.

to be honest a 72 hold isnt always a bad thing especially if the person goes in volunteerily once the need for a hold is established. then they allow themselves some control once in.

a therapist here does not have the power that a psyche does. they still have to consult with authorities or a doctor to decide on the hold. gererally speaking most therapist and doctors are less inclined to act if an individual is actually actively seeking help to better thier health.

now most of what i am talking about comes from my own expierences and knowledge of things here in FL. i am not a professional, just crazy and been dealing with this for about 18 years.

i wish you luck, and i would also suggest that he check with a county facility. alot of them operate on a sliding and will aid people that need it.

lee

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RE: Can theapists commit you to a mental hospital for a... - 8/30/2008 12:34:09 AM

Monkeyontuesday

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Firstly, if I were in the situation, I would consider dropping the friend. I do NOT tolerate black mail in any way/ shape/ form, and this is what is going on.. Or, as mentioned, attention whoring/ pity party, both of which I don't do well with, either.

There are state provisions one can get on (For example, in AZ they have Access), and Walgreens also has a very affordable RX club that will discount generic medications. The therapist visits can be pricy, but I work with a woman who has had no insurance for a good two decades and suffers GREATLY from bi polar disorder... Her office works with her.

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