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RE: Read the books!!! - 9/3/2008 9:00:25 AM

Camerius

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I agree fully with you here, Tim.

IWYW,

Camerius

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"To Gorean morality many Earth moralities might ask, "Why so hard?" To these Earth moralities, the Gorean ethos might ask, "Why so soft?" Marauders of Gor, pg.8

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RE: Read the books!!! - 9/3/2008 10:39:01 AM

colouredin

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Fr In reltion to another thread i find it interesting that people will willingly explain their beliefs when they are insulted and when someone asks a question to i assume stop the silly assumptions its often a wall of silence, i think thats the wrong message, I shouldnt be thinking that the best way to illicit a response is to insult what i dont understand its the same as responding to those who scream loudest. Mind you this is i guess yet another picky thread but surely asking something about what Gor is or a certain aspect of Gor is better than writing a huge post slagging the whole thing off. Im not judging you as a lifestyle its just an interesting thing about human beings, we are often more willing to be frank in the face of attack

< Message edited by colouredin -- 9/3/2008 10:41:27 AM >

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RE: Read the books!!! - 9/3/2008 10:57:19 AM

Musicmystery

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Actually, I find it interesting that so many of the non-Gor folk assume that any post responding to an issue means the poster is insuled.

I have never responded to a post because I felt insulted. I have better things to do. So do the most of the Goreans around here.

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Post #: 123

RE: Read the books!!! - 9/3/2008 12:12:55 PM

Camerius

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quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

Fr In reltion to another thread i find it interesting that people will willingly explain their beliefs when they are insulted and when someone asks a question to i assume stop the silly assumptions its often a wall of silence, i think thats the wrong message, I shouldnt be thinking that the best way to illicit a response is to insult what i dont understand its the same as responding to those who scream loudest. Mind you this is i guess yet another picky thread but surely asking something about what Gor is or a certain aspect of Gor is better than writing a huge post slagging the whole thing off. Im not judging you as a lifestyle its just an interesting thing about human beings, we are often more willing to be frank in the face of attack

Where in any of my posts in this thread have I stated that I have been insulted?

What I have done here, like the rest, is give my reasoning for what and why I believe in this matter, nothing more.

I don't see me as being or having been insulted here, if that had been the case however, I would have let it be known. Instead I see clarification and too sides of what has been talked about here, even asked for by some...after all this IS a forum, and as such, is a place where this is taking place.

Don't try and put something there, that never was just there in the start. It makes you look bad, and to don't ad much to what is being discussed.

IWYW,

Camerius

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"To Gorean morality many Earth moralities might ask, "Why so hard?" To these Earth moralities, the Gorean ethos might ask, "Why so soft?" Marauders of Gor, pg.8

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RE: Read the books!!! - 9/3/2008 12:13:03 PM

colouredin

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I dont find any post means that the responder is insulting what i meant was the thread i was talking about was intended to insult the lifestyle. Gor folk and Gor folk are not massivly differant there are differant types of people within all social groups i dont know why the two have to be described as being so seperate really, there arent really any exclusive character traits.

< Message edited by colouredin -- 9/3/2008 12:15:03 PM >

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Post #: 125

RE: Read the books!!! - 9/3/2008 1:32:25 PM

Camerius

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quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

I dont find any post means that the responder is insulting what i meant was the thread i was talking about was intended to insult the lifestyle. Gor folk and Gor folk are not massivly differant there are differant types of people within all social groups i dont know why the two have to be described as being so seperate really, there arent really any exclusive character traits.

I personally don't think that it's such a bad thing that we have people asking questions about Gor, the philosophy or any other matters in that regard. I for one, find it good that it happens, but it should be based on an informed one, not just some crap picked up in some SL cyber kajira fuck place, IRC "Gorean" BDSM chat without any clue of anything Gorean.

This is what most here gets insulted about, that the ones that asks do not have an informed basis, but rather misinformed/misconcived. That is what I find to be the most insulting when asked about anything Gorean.

And no, even some Goreans in the books were shitty people, some stole, lied, killed and so on just like you see happening in the World around you today. Norman never pulled away from that we as humans do so, as he put that too in the books. What he gave us is the reasons for it happening and what we could do to become better people.

The insult is not in asking any kinds of questions, but rather in the uninformed ones and, again, where I think most do take it as to be insulting.

IWYW,

Camerius

< Message edited by Camerius -- 9/3/2008 1:33:07 PM >

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Post #: 126

RE: Read the books!!! - 9/3/2008 1:46:33 PM

colouredin

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dont all question s come from some element of lacking infomation though? if you had all the infomation you wouldnt ask questions also if you didnt have any infomation you wouldnt be informed enough to ask questions, questions normally come from a desire to clarify, an element of infomation or understanding but not feeling you have fully grasped it

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RE: Read the books!!! - 9/3/2008 2:02:18 PM

Camerius

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quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

dont all question s come from some element of lacking information though? if you had all the infomation you wouldnt ask questions also if you didnt have any infomation you wouldnt be informed enough to ask questions, questions normally come from a desire to clarify, an element of infomation or understanding but not feeling you have fully grasped it

They do, but too they go from having the right information to base the question/s on, and ones that are based on untrue/misunderstood or misconceived information.

Most often, when I get questions they tend to pile up in the last section that I just wrote, that they be of the sort that shows that the questioner haven't got an informed basis to ask on. Both of this makes it very hard to have a conversation since the person asking has gotten the matters the wrong way ( when it could have been dealt with by going and get the information in the first place ) and me using unnecessary time to correct the questioners own fault ( since the information wasn't right in the first place ).

Asking, questioning and so are good, keep doing so and never stop or let others tell you what you should think. But IF you ask, then let it be an informed question, that way you will too be able to do an informed choice.

IWYW,

Camerius

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"To Gorean morality many Earth moralities might ask, "Why so hard?" To these Earth moralities, the Gorean ethos might ask, "Why so soft?" Marauders of Gor, pg.8

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RE: Read the books!!! - 9/3/2008 3:07:57 PM

Malkinius

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greetings colouredin....

quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

dont all question s come from some element of lacking infomation though? if you had all the infomation you wouldnt ask questions also if you didnt have any infomation you wouldnt be informed enough to ask questions, questions normally come from a desire to clarify, an element of infomation or understanding but not feeling you have fully grasped it

No...some are just trolls and monkeys trying to cause trouble.

be well....

Malkinius

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Post #: 129

RE: Read the books!!! - 9/3/2008 3:23:14 PM

colouredin

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Thankyou both and I do agree with both of you, especially Camerius however i do think that often when we are given unsual infomation we run out to qualify it before questioning its validity ourselves, as often is the nature of gossip we just get curious. Anyways I think I have derailed this thread and I am sorry for that.

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Post #: 130

RE: Read the books!!! - 9/4/2008 5:49:11 AM

tsatske

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because i was reading and following this thread, it was up on my top computer screen when i got up to serve Master His coffee to take to work. He was standing here looking at my screen when I came in, and I teased him about it.
I thought about not posting any of this, because it seemed rather politically incorrect for the board in question. But i usually care a whole lot more about p.c. than any Gorean friend we have. Goreans can be unexpectedly prickly, of course - so if I offend, some mod is welcome to remove my post - or write and ask me to do so - or slap my hand and send me to the corner (i really won't mind...)
It's just that the conversation we had (quite brief, as he was on his way out the door to work) got me thinking. Because we are not Gorean, and on the surface it seemed either an insult to Goreans overall - or simply hypocritical as all hell. But, I think, really, it is neither.
In fact, It reminded me a lot of Gorean, of Gorean men, in general. How they think, or seem to, from the outside. I also thought if this deserved it's own thread, but aside from my reluctance as a non-Gorean visitor to go around starting threads, it simply seems to fit what is being talked about here. The Tao of Gor, if you will - and a very masculine version of the Tao it tends to be.
Master made a comment about 'stupid Gorean shit'. Now, we borrow LIBERALLY from Gor, and have Gorean friends we respect a lot - plus other friends more like us, not identifying as gor, but stealing from the culture liberally.
Of course, it isn't the visible parts of the culture that make you Gor, it is an attitude. And the truth is, some men with very Gorean attitudes are never going to identify as Gor because something about the whole thing goes against the grain of that Goreanish attitude and personality, at least as it expresses itself in that particular man.
I raised my eyebrow at him and said 'so you want us to skip stupid Gorean shit this morning?' And he said, 'Only the stupid Gorean shit. Not the Gorean shit we do.' So I asked, 'So the definition of 'not stupid shit' would be 'shit we do?' And He said, 'pretty much'
Then I said the creed, as I do every day, and He left for work, official coffee cup in hand. (honest to god. His employer has handed out official coffee cups, and no other coffee cups are allowed. talk about life's stupid shit.)

So it got me thinking what a basically Gorean attitude this is. Goreans on here tend to explain the refusal to answer 'What is Gor' with 'why would I want to explain it to a person to lazy to find out for themselves?'
And i suspect that is true, and that they mean it. but it is also much more than that. Someone compared it to the Tao, and that is an excellent comparison, imo.
How can another person tell you what the Tao means to you? to use easy, very Americanized Toaisms here - it is 'the way' - 'one true way', but, one different true way for every person, - so how can someone else tell you what that way is to be, for you?
How can another man - a man other than you, if it is a male asking, a man other than the one who does or will own you, if a woman is asking - how can another man tell you what is the valuable parts of Gor, what they mean, and what is stupid Gorean shit - to YOU, (or the man that does or will own you)?
It is equally true that the books won't tell you - anymore than reading the Tao te Ching will tell what 'the way' is, for you. It is just a matter of finding your own answers, - some can be found by reading, some by debates like this, but most must be found by living. 'Do not Do. Do not fail to do. Do not be. Do not notbe. Do and do not do. Be and do not be.' ( which was translated by my very first sifu (who should have had the title of respect respelled, just for him, as stfu) as 'Just DO it!'. which said something about what he thought his students capable of, imo.)

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RE: Read the books!!! - 9/4/2008 5:56:44 AM

barelynangel

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In my opinion and it always has been, if you "borrow" bits and piences from Gorean, its no longer Gorean as what makes up Gorean existed individually long before Gorean books and John Norman ever did, so i don't think someone who is not Gorean and claims to borrow Gorean doesn't really get where and what Gorean is, so thereby, i guess people don't need to worry about stupid Gorean shit because the shit they are doing isn't Gorean. That is kinda what people learn as they read the books and discuss them, that Gorean is a concept of whole understanding, not picking bits and pieces because the bits and pieces doesn't make it Gorean -- the whole does. The whole of the belief system and understandings and perceptions is what gives meaning to the actions (actions many people who are not Gorean DO on a daily basis).

Is this like if today was tomorrow yesterday then yesterday is today tomorrow?

I think this is why many people get confused because many people think of Gorean in terms of DOING instead of BEING.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 9/4/2008 6:03:41 AM >

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RE: Read the books!!! - 9/4/2008 6:21:29 AM

tsatske

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barelynangel,
That is true, i certainly agree. Except that, i would never claim to be 'borrowing', except in the case of things so distinctly and uniquely Gorean so that not admiting where they were stolen from would practicly be plagurism.
IOW, only the minor, and unimportant shit. The attitudes, philosophies, ect, can be found other places as well (any attitude or philosophy can be found in more than one place - a school of thought comes from what things are put together and why).
But, when we say the Creed every morning - well, no, that didn't exist before Gor. And when we practice the positions or commands - those come, at least as a set and with names, ect, from Gor. (well, i don't know about claiming the 'set' part. We use Gor positions and commands - but others as well.)
So, I would only say that something had been taken from Gor when it was, in fact, of the least important parts of Gor - the stuff you can see and touch and name.
I do think, however, that, strictly because Gor is based on a set of fictional novels, and, also, because, while it is not so visiable on this particular board, there is a large group of people whose online experience in what is bascilly a roleplaying game is their only Gor experience, but who none the less in some online communities manage to be loud enough to set the prevailing attitude of the community (again, not so much here, thank god), and perhaps for simular reasons - there are men with very Gorean attitudes and personalities who will never be Gor because it goes against their basic self identification to identify with those things.
It is not something I am suggesting should be 'worked on' or 'corrected'. Just commenting on one of life's ironies.
Because in many ways, the basic Gorean man has a very Alpha male attitude. Very 'don't bother me with stupid shit' and 'stupid shit is the shit i don't do. any other questions?' type of attitude. Some country music lines come to mind, in general, they are from the songs that most remind me of Master, strangly enough.
'Yea that's a real gun in my truck. NO i don't have a licence for it. You got a licence to ask stupid questions? Boy could get hurt.'

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RE: Read the books!!! - 9/4/2008 10:38:52 AM

Malkinius

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greetings tsatske....

I have to respond to a couple of points in your post which are not the main ones. Over all it was very good. One comment to your Master...when your Master picks and chooses which 'Gorean shit' he wants to use it stops being 'Gorean shit' and becomes 'his shit'. <grins> He should be correct and call it so.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tsatske

<snip>

It is equally true that the books won't tell you - anymore than reading the Tao te Ching will tell what 'the way' is, for you. It is just a matter of finding your own answers, - some can be found by reading, some by debates like this, but most must be found by living. 'Do not Do. Do not fail to do. Do not be. Do not not be. Do and do not do. Be and do not be.'

You missed the next line which traditionally is "Do be do be do." and done in a Frank Sinatra voice. <evil grin>

quote:

( which was translated by my very first sifu (who should have had the title of respect respelled, just for him, as stfu) as 'Just DO it!'. which said something about what he thought his students capable of, imo.)

You had a wise teacher. One of the things I noticed when studying Zen and the Tao years ago is that the one thing all the best Masters of it had in common and seems to me to be a requirement. That is a really wicked sense of humor. <grins> You don't really start understanding it until you let go and relax. This is especially true of Zen Masters. I have found that the following koan sums it up pretty well and most will not understand it.

"One day I realized that I understood the Zen completely. At that moment, I threw away everything I had learned and started over because I realized that I understood nothing."

be well.....

Malkinius

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RE: Read the books!!! - 9/7/2008 8:59:09 PM

Nemesys

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dawntreader

One of these days, i am going to sit in someone's lap and listen to his beautiful voice read the Gorean series and his interpretation of the philosophies within...

Greetings, dawntreader

That sounds like a wonderful way to learn them... far more fun, and meaningful, than reading them alone yourself.

I've read Lao Tzu, but I should have done it your way... gender modified, of course :-)

I wish all well, - N

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RE: Read the books!!! - 9/8/2008 5:16:30 AM

sabba

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemesys

That sounds like a wonderful way to learn them... far more fun, and meaningful, than reading them alone yourself.

I've read Lao Tzu, but I should have done it your way... gender modified, of course :-)

I wish all well, - N

greetings Master Nemesys,

sabba will say, from experience, that reading the series out loud also aids considerably in understanding. Once she got used to His writing style, the books actually flowed better for her.

well wishes,
sabba

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RE: Read the books!!! - 9/8/2008 7:19:44 AM

dawntreader

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemesys

quote:

ORIGINAL: dawntreader

One of these days, i am going to sit in someone's lap and listen to his beautiful voice read the Gorean series and his interpretation of the philosophies within...

Greetings, dawntreader

That sounds like a wonderful way to learn them... far more fun, and meaningful, than reading them alone yourself.

I've read Lao Tzu, but I should have done it your way... gender modified, of course :-)

I wish all well, - N

Greetings N,

Yes, i do think it will be an excellent way to "learn" the books although i am primarily interested in the personal interpretation of them and as i am sure the Tao te Ching will come into it at some point for comparison and reference, i will have the added benefit of that as well.

Philosophy is such an aphrodisiac...at least for me

j

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