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Read the books!!! - 8/31/2008 6:47:48 AM   
opposingtwilight


Posts: 684
Joined: 6/13/2008
Status: offline 		I've been reading (and occassionally posting) here for a couple months now and I've seen a few threads come along where people asked a question about "What is Gor?" or "What is it to be Gorean?" and invariably they get the response to READ THE BOOKS!

And I can understand why you say that. There is something to be said for someone who is actually willing to put in the effort to research something and gain an understanding in that way. I had a similiar discussion with someone earlier this week on another topic entirely and I finally had to just stop answering their questions because they refused to research anything. They wanted me to spoonfeed them everything, hold their hand and guide them along. So, I get it. Read the books.

On the other hand, having read the books myself and been owned by Goreans for several years, I thought I had a pretty decent grasp on what it was to be a Gorean. I've never claimed to know everything so this isn't some kind of a bragging statement or anything like that. ...

And yet ... Evidently I do not have a complete grasp on the philosophies because I finally explained what I thought one of them were and was quickly corrected by both a Man and a slave. Interesting. I read the books. I was even owned for awhile. And I still got it wrong.

So maybe reading the books isn't enough. I mean, if a community of people are all going to claim to be the same thing shouldn't they all agree on what that thing is? (Not that I'm claiming to be part of this community ... I'm just saying.) At what point do you decide that ok, this person has done the research and maybe now its time for someone with broader experience to come along and help them out ... ?

Tarl's character went through several transformations in thinking as the series developed but I noticed that he had several mentors along the way. He also learned from the slaves themselves. He didn't just jump right in and know HOW to be a Gorean.

I think I'm rambling now and hopefully you've gotten the idea I was trying to convey. So, I'm gonna hush and leave this on the table. Hopefully someone will contribute.

- dawn




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RE: Read the books!!! - 8/31/2008 7:07:36 AM   
NumberSix


Posts: 1371
Joined: 12/30/2006
Status: offline 		What is a transtrike?
Are they available at the corner Cum'n'Go?
can you explain the detailed architectural elements comprising the reasons behind the  collapse of the world trade centers in 3 or 4 (hopefully less) sentences; yanno, just hitting the high points?

Or the mundane and daily asked questions with get the equivalent of RTFM (read the fuckin' manual)

Sometimes, reasonable questions are asked, and they get it too, but most often, someone steps in and will explain a little of it (in their understanding)

6 

_____________________________

"Who are you?"
"The new Number Two."
"Who is Number One?"
"You are Number Six.".
"I am not a number — I am a free man!"

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RE: Read the books!!! - 8/31/2008 7:31:01 AM   
Nemesys


Posts: 148
Joined: 9/3/2005
Status: offline 		dawn,

You have a point.  If someone were to ask your minister what being a Christian was all about, would the proper response be to simply "read the bible"?

If someone who knows little about Gor asks what being Gorean is all about, the reponse here is often "read the books".

Assuming somone does take the time to read a few books, they're then told that they have to read them all.

Then they're told that they have to read them several times to glean the crucial  nuggets of wisdom that defines higher understanding.

Then they're told that they have to forget some of the books they read before and concentrate on the last, most important ones.

Then they're told to forget some of those older books that Norman has since revised and concentrate on the new King John versions only.

Then they're told to read everything that Nietzsche wrote and compare it to everything Norman wrote, because to truly understand Gor you need to truly understand Nietzsche.

Then they're told to read everything that those people who have compared Norman to Nietzsche wrote about, becasue they are the only ones who truly understand Gor.

And yet if you do read those commentaries, you soon realize that these folks cannot agree on what being Gorean is all about and that you have come full circle without learning much of anything.

The books are a wonderful place to start, but rhe books do not own what it means to be Gorean and so they cannot define what it means to any individual via book-knowledge alone.  That definition is also owned in the hearts and bellies of those who are walking down that path, from whatever direction and to whatever final destination.  There are folks who haven't finished "Tarnsman" yet that exemplify what it means to be Gorean better than some others who have written book-length diatribes on the subject.

So perhaps when someone asks what it means to be Gorean, a good place to start would be to tell them what it means to you. 

The books will always be there... unless they're being revised again.


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RE: Read the books!!! - 8/31/2008 7:56:24 AM   
NumberSix


Posts: 1371
Joined: 12/30/2006
Status: offline 		There are not a great deal who would tell you read Neitsche out here (admittedly, there are a few, but it is not likely to come up too often).

His grab and die sort of thinking wouldnt go here.

Grab yes (very human), but not until you can't subsume it.

I would say that Neitsche and the Quoran are about a horse apiece for recommendations out this way.

6 



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"Who are you?"
"The new Number Two."
"Who is Number One?"
"You are Number Six.".
"I am not a number — I am a free man!"

Be seeing you...

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RE: Read the books!!! - 8/31/2008 8:12:26 AM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12597
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		I just Kant....

Jeff

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RE: Read the books!!! - 8/31/2008 10:12:01 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7329
Joined: 10/11/2006
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1) Someone must have a foundation for understanding some of the more complex issues, that invariably get brought up when someone asks "what is Gor?".

2) The example of the bible is incorrect, as it is easy to explain what a Christian is "Someone who believes in Jesus Christ, that he is The Son of God, and that he died on the cross for our sins." If you state a Gorean is someone that studies, and lives by the philosophy/morality that is found in the Chronicles of Gor, written by John Norman." Then you get all kinds of follow up questions - See 1 above.

3) If they really wanted to know the could have googled it and at least read some of the short descriptions there, I for one am not going to cater to someone that does not put a high priority on seeking knowledge and instead want the work done for them.

4) Gor is often harsh, as it is a reflection of life and human behavior. If a harsh response turns them away or hurts their feelings, oh fucking well. Gor is obviously not for them then.

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RE: Read the books!!! - 8/31/2008 10:27:48 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		Hi all, i think many times people forget that this is a forum for those who don't know to learn -- sure.  BUT its also a forum where people who live Gorean can come discuss well living Gorean.  It seems many times people have this presumption that this forum is a forum that is dedicated to teaching because they misunderstand the concept of "people who want to learn."  People can learn about Gorean from this forum, all they have to do is read.  There is to me a misconception of persumption that the topic implies that Goreans are "required" or "should be expectec to have to" teach what Gorean is.  This forum is mainly about "This is a forum for those who identify as Goreans and for others who wish to learn about it."  The latter part is not an indication of the former HAVING TO teach or heck, even WANTING to teach Gorean to others who don't know what it is.  We get many people who come over here as concepts and expectations that people here are sitting around twiddling their thumbs to BE teachers of Gorean, but if you look at the interesting discussions between Goreans -- most are here to DISCUSS Gorean with regard to LIVING Gorean with well Goreans.  So yes, the concept of read the books is exactly what Goreans who come here to discuss have done and they have formulated their own understanding of how it applies to them and then the come here to discuss their interpretation with others.

If you read the books you will see much of what happens is a journey into self to understand the philosophies that guide the rights and wrongs and they whys and hows, no one can teach Gorean to someone, a person can only learn Gorean by understanding within themselves and deciding to live by those understandings as a whole. 

Perhaps newbies shouldn't read the latter part of the topic description as people in this forum are just waiting to teach you and instead see this forum more as a resource wherein the information of what people who identify as Gorean and who live it have already offered the answers and newbies or people who want to learn need to do the work to achieve that instead of plopping their behinds down and act like Goreans should want to TEACH them what Gorean is, instead of people who want to learn Gorean taking the steps to well learn from the vast amount of information this forum holds.  HINT, when you read the books, the discussions tend to start making sense because you can apply your knowledge to what is being said.  You may not agree with some but you agree with others and well hell, you've learned something in that agreement because you are fine tuning your interpretation of what you know.  There will be times when you read something in the discussions when you are like damn that's what i was missing, and there will be times you don't believe what a person is saying really gets it.  But if you notice there IS discussions of Goreans and though people keep trying, there is no absolute consensus where a dry erase board of BEING Gorean can or ever wll exist.

So yes, READ THE BOOKS, and then once you have an understanding of what you have read, come discuss -- not be validated but discuss what you have learned.  And many times, you will be surprised at the discussions from people who are also informed by their reading of the books and living their interpretation and knowledge of live that ensues and that is where people learn about Gorean from the discussions and having read the source material, not from expecting to be taught as if its the alphabet in first grade. 

This forum is for people who want to learn yes -- that doesn't translate to come here to be taught, the resources of this forum have the information in the discussions and archives for people who want to learn. This forum is a vast vault of resources for those who want to learn about Gorean.  Even people who have known Gorean forever tend to learn something in discussions -- maybe its people don't get what they do and never will or someone mentions something they may have forgotten about or what not, etc.  All in all, there is no teacher of Gorean other than the source material.  The rest is simply discussion of the source material and applying said concepts and philosophy to ones life.

Newbies should see this forum as a resource, not a classroom.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 8/31/2008 10:51:50 AM >

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RE: Read the books!!! - 8/31/2008 10:49:45 AM   
opposingtwilight


Posts: 684
Joined: 6/13/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

2) The example of the bible is incorrect, as it is easy to explain what a Christian is "Someone who believes in Jesus Christ, that he is The Son of God, and that he died on the cross for our sins." If you state a Gorean is someone that studies, and lives by the philosophy/morality that is found in the Chronicles of Gor, written by John Norman." Then you get all kinds of follow up questions - See 1 above.



When I was growing up my mother would often tell me to read the Bible. This came after she accused me of not being a very good Christian and I would, in utter exasperation, demand to know ... Well, then what is a good Christian? What does it mean to be a good Christian?

She never had an answer beyond read the Bible.

I stuck with that book for a good 15 years before I finally just let it go. And sometimes I think thats how it feels to a lot of people who do come here. Maybe they did google. If you google, you know what you find? You find 100 million different explanations of what Gor is. You also find inane role play sites by the hoardes.

So they google ... They learn the role play stuff mostly ... They come here and find something TOTALLY different. And they ask again ... What does it mean to be Gorean?

Everyone talks about following the philosophies but is there any place where one can actually find a comprehensive list of what those really are? I'm not talking about a spoonfed "this is this and that is that" kind of thing. But I am talking about something that someone can actually read and go ... OH! So -thats- what that means. Hmmm. Well damn I've been a Gorean for 20 years then! ... Or maybe they'd just go ... Oh wow these people are off their flippen rockers. Holy cow. Bunch of crazies!

But either way .. At least it would be something ... Comprehensive. If they chose to do the work and go read it. I think maybe thats what people are asking for. Because books can be interpreted in different ways.

quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

Hi all, i think many times people forget that this is a forum for those who don't know to learn -- sure.  BUT its also a forum where people who live Gorean can come discuss well living Gorean.  It seems many times people have this presumption that this forum is a forum that is dedicated to teaching because they misunderstand the concept of "people who want to learn."  People can learn about Gorean from this forum, all they have to do is read.  There is to me a misconception of persumption that the topic implies that Goreans are "required" or "should be expectec to have to" teach what Gorean is.  This forum is mainly about "This is a forum for those who identify as Goreans and for others who wish to learn about it."  The latter part is not an indication of the former HAVING TO teach or heck, even WANTING to teach Gorean to others who don't know what it is.  We get many people who come over here as concepts and expectations that people here are sitting around twiddling their thumbs to BE teachers of Gorean, but if you look at the interesting discussions between Goreans -- most are here to DISCUSS Gorean with regard to LIVING Gorean with well Goreans.  So yes, the concept of read the books is exactly what Goreans who come here to discuss have done and they have formulated their own understanding of how it applies to them and then the come here to discuss their interpretation with others.

Newbies should see this forum as a resource, not a classroom.

angel


But angel, this isn't always the case. I mean there are so many threads where people just sit and argue back and forth. If one is a total newbie and doesn't know who the "actual Goreans" really are how can they know which part to learn from and which part to discard?

There's one thread thats gone on for pages and pages that was started by someone who asked about slaves carrying money in their mouths. How silly is it that its taken literally pages and pages of debate? Its a dumb question but its gonna be debated until that horse has been beaten to an unrecognizable pulp.

Telling someone to simply read the books or simply read the forums really isn't very useful because there's sooooo much chaff to be sifted through. If they don't know what they're looking for to begin with, they aren't going to get very far.


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RE: Read the books!!! - 8/31/2008 10:52:08 AM   
Malkinius


Posts: 1584
Joined: 1/9/2004
Status: offline 		Greetings Jefff.....

Camus explain that a bit better? Watts with it? I only Sartre of understand it. Hume....no, it is still an unformed lump of Plato that still needs to be Locked in. Help us all to get Agrippa on it. I Lange for an answer. Soto end this, without hammering it like a Smith does iron until we are Thoreau with it and not put Descartes before the horse and make this so dense only a Clarke can understand it and Confucius all. I will not try to look around all the Engles or Fludd this post with More and Muir Marx of erudition and Mill this for all it is worth.

Be well.....

Malkinius

(This post has been enhanced for the humor and philosophically impaired.) http://www.erraticimpact.com/names_index.htm

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RE: Read the books!!! - 8/31/2008 10:57:47 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		OT, you are going to keep making excuses for your cause, but people who are Gorean cannot TEACH anyone Gorean.  If you look at people on this forum there are many who agree and many who don't agree certain people are or are not Gorean.  Therefore, IF a newbie decides to follow an individual to learn what Gorean is all they will end up with is an individual perception fo what that person read in the books nad has learned through application.  A person who really wants to learn Gorean will choose because that's kinda what Goreans DO, to absorb and analyze the information from the books and then discuss it.  They will keep and discard what seems right and wrong to them and choose to apply what they have learned NOT necessarily what they have been taught.

There is a big difference between a person learning what Gorean is because its a concept of the journey into who they are and a person being taught as if its abc's.  The former learns much the latter learns trivia.   Learn the difference between being taught and learning and you will find you have no argument - which i think you keep stating you expect this forum to be a classroom -- its not.   Again, this is NOT a classroom to be taught Gorean.  The only thing that can TEACH you Gorean is 2 things the books and your interpretation of same and well, yourself because you have choosen to LEARN Gorean not be taught it.  The rest is simply discussion you just as everyone else has to wade through to find what Gorean is.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 8/31/2008 11:00:55 AM >

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RE: Read the books!!! - 8/31/2008 11:00:57 AM   
opposingtwilight


Posts: 684
Joined: 6/13/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

OT, you are going to keep making excuses for your cause, but people who are Gorean cannot TEACH anyone Gorean.  If you look at people on this forum there are many who agree and many who don't agree certain people are or are not Gorean.  Therefore, IF a newbie decides to follow an individual to learn what Gorean is all they will end up with is an individual perception fo what that person read in the books nad has learned through application.  A person who really wants to learn Gorean will choose because that's kinda what Goreans DO, to absorb and analyze the information from the books and then discuss it.  They will keep and discard what seems right and wrong to them and choose to apply what they have learned NOT necessarily what they have been taught.

There is a big difference between a person learning what Gorean is and a person being taught.  Learn the difference and you will find you have no argument - which i think you keep stating you expect this forum to be a classroom -- its not.   Again, this is NOT a classroom to be taught Gorean.  The only thing that can TEACH you Gorean is 2 things the books and your interpretation of same and well, yourself.  The rest is simply discussion you just as everyone else has to wade through to find what Gorean is.

angel


This isn't a cause and what I said wasn't an excuse. I'm not sure how or why you interpretted it that way but I wanted to make that clear. I'm not defending "the newbies".

I get your point though and I'll let it drop. This isn't a classroom.

Check.


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RE: Read the books!!! - 8/31/2008 11:08:16 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		As i said OT, this forum is a vast learning center for those who want to learn what Gorean is.  If they choose to apply their want to learn, they will find the answers they seek as well as people willing to discuss their perceptions and interpretations.  For people who simply want to sit down and wait for the teacher to come to the front of the class to teach them well, that expectations is what many misinterpret within the concept of learning of any philosophy.  Just out of curiosity, do you walk into a book discussion of a book you haven't read and sit down and demand to be taught?  Or do you read the books and then go to the discussion and well discuss it to learn? How many philosophy classes do you sit down in and are told not to read the books or discuss what you are learning but sit your ass down and be taught?  Not any i have ever been in.  Most of those types of classes that are based on interpretation of written material tend to tell you to read the source material and then what ensues are usually discussions.

I have never seen discussions on here where someone says, i have read this in the books, can we discuss it and it be shot down.  I do see many times people shooting down people who want to be taught instead of learn.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 8/31/2008 11:10:22 AM >

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RE: Read the books!!! - 8/31/2008 11:11:09 AM   
opposingtwilight


Posts: 684
Joined: 6/13/2008
Status: offline 		I do not attend book discussions. :)

I got your point, angel. No worries.


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RE: Read the books!!! - 8/31/2008 11:15:23 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		Perhaps you should, you may understand a little more of how a discussion forum works especially when it comes to a discussion forum that has source materials that many many many people LEARNED from long before discussion forums online ever existed.  Its how most of the old timers learned Gorean -- not only learned Gorean but learned to understand themselves AS Goreans.  

I am glad you got it, grins now apply it., there are some really damned good discussions that people can learn from.  I hope you find them useful.

Good luck.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 8/31/2008 11:18:20 AM >

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What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
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RE: Read the books!!! - 8/31/2008 11:17:19 AM   
opposingtwilight


Posts: 684
Joined: 6/13/2008
Status: offline 		I'm sorry I even started this thread.


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RE: Read the books!!! - 8/31/2008 11:23:31 AM   
NumberSix


Posts: 1371
Joined: 12/30/2006
Status: offline 		Don't be sorry, you have more meaningful things to be sorry for in your life...

As the description for this section states, this is a forum for the open discussion of topics pertaining to Gorean Lifestlyes. This is not the place to discuss online or real life Gorean roleplaying. All members are welcome to join in the conversation here regardless of experience or interest.

Subjects which are unacceptable regardless of circumstance include, but are not limited to - minors, bestiality, incest, necrophilia, snuff and criminal activities. Any other questions of acceptability will be determined based on the content of the given essay.

Keep the discussions civil and mature, and do not insult the kinks, preferences, lifestyles, etc. of others.

There is an Off Topic Discussion category elsewhere on this board if you wish to bring up subjects other than those intended here


This is from the section guidelines, now I don't give a fuck what you think they should be, this is what there is.

Nothing prohibits teaching.


Read the fuckin' TOS, The Section Guidelines, and the Books!!!!!!!


LOL,

Professor Hup

_____________________________

"Who are you?"
"The new Number Two."
"Who is Number One?"
"You are Number Six.".
"I am not a number — I am a free man!"

Be seeing you...

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RE: Read the books!!! - 8/31/2008 11:57:50 AM   
opposingtwilight


Posts: 684
Joined: 6/13/2008
Status: offline 		I'm just scratching my head now, Proff. Hup ... :)

You lost me.

I'm only sorry I posted the question because somehow it became a "personal" thing ... IE I need to apply what I've seen here to my life.

And, well ... It really had nothing to do with me. I'm not a newbie. I'm not here to learn how to be Gorean.

Someone did ask me in cmail why I do come here and thats a good question which I do not have an answer for.

I think the purpose of this thread was to make others think a little bit. Its so easy to pass out the same answer all the time and not even bother to explore any other venue whatsoever.


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RE: Read the books!!! - 8/31/2008 12:18:11 PM   
Naturallurker


Posts: 117
Joined: 8/22/2008
Status: offline 		To no one in particular.

"Those that can do, those who can't teach" (those who can't teach, teach teachers)

To buck a trend I will say reading the books is not enough. To read and understand one book you need to learn to read in an active fashion, you have to read others to have something to weigh the words of the first against. You have to work hard at the reading the context the subtext the possible literary, historical and philosophical groundwork that is embedded in the works you are sent off to read. You have to work at separating the philosophical metaphors, analogies, dialectics   from the set dressing of a golly good yarn. You have to work at deciding for your self if the books are a propaedeutic to the  philosophy, we are calling Gorean, at all, and only then ONLY when you have done all this for yourself can you begin to examine your self in the light of what you have discovered within the pages.

Of course you don't have to take my word for it, I'm merely one who lurks in this forum.


< Message edited by Naturallurker -- 8/31/2008 12:20:24 PM >

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RE: Read the books!!! - 8/31/2008 12:21:57 PM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
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quote:

Tarl's character went through several transformations in thinking as the series developed but I noticed that he had several mentors along the way. He also learned from the slaves themselves. He didn't just jump right in and know HOW to be a Gorean.


Afternoon dawn,

Just as you are going through in your learning. You are starting to get a grasp of the concepts, and will learn more as the theory meets the practical.

I guess that is about as simple as I can state things.  Each of us has gone through the trial and error, success and failure, and continue to grow in our understanding and practice of living life.  Just as one cannot be spoonfed the information, one must experience how that information is then applied to life.

I wish you well on your journey,
Thadius

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RE: Read the books!!! - 8/31/2008 12:22:07 PM   
NumberSix


Posts: 1371
Joined: 12/30/2006
Status: offline 		So, if I understand the force of your jingoe correctly, were i tell a slave, Bara! and she gleefully flops down like a sow about to farrow, and I said no!!:  legs like this, hands here, with grace.....head held so, and so on.....


That makes me a 'can't'?

You had better withdraw that one, buck-o.





< Message edited by NumberSix -- 8/31/2008 12:26:47 PM >

_____________________________

"Who are you?"
"The new Number Two."
"Who is Number One?"
"You are Number Six.".
"I am not a number — I am a free man!"

Be seeing you...

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Profile   Post #: 20
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