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Dissolving Gorean Relationships


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Dissolving Gorean Relationships - 11/28/2005 9:03:15 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		After having read the following thread, I have several pertinent questions:

http://www.collarchat.com/m_212349/tm.htm

I'm curious as to how this situation might be viewed had it been a Gorean relationship:

1. Would the slave continue to be happy under these circumstances because her Master was happy?

2. Would the slave be doomed to this relationship for all time, because she had chosen to beg the collar of the "wrong" Master?

3. Would the slave have any rights to the "truth" from her Master?

4. Would the slave have any rights to a level of care?

5. Would the slave be shunned by the Gorean community (as has been alleged in previous posts) for unilaterally dissolving a relationship like this?

6. Would not a Gorean Master be well within his rights to treat his slave in this manner (or any other manner of his choosing)?

7. Would there be some manner of rationalization to marginalize this Master as not being "real" in order to legitimize her departure?

Should make for some illuminating replies.

John
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Dissolving Gorean Relationships - 11/28/2005 10:12:39 AM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

1. Would the slave continue to be happy under these circumstances because her Master was happy?


Absolutely. As long as your Gorean slave was manufactured on or before June 11, 1983, that is. There was a minor defect in some later models that caused them to be less than pastoral about belonging to a bum. Those, however, are subject to recall, and you can have them repaired at no cost to you.

quote:

2. Would the slave be doomed to this relationship for all time, because she had chosen to beg the collar of the "wrong" Master?


Why yes, yes she would. That is why a standard issue Gorean slave collar has "Abandon All Hope, Ye Who Enter Here" clearly engraved on the inside.

quote:

. Would the slave have any rights to the "truth" from her Master?


Yes, all Gorean slaves have a right to the truth. Oh, and my girl reminds me to add that they have the right to ice cream too.

quote:

4. Would the slave have any rights to a level of care?


Most Gorean slaves are machine washable, though a few of the more exotic girls from asia require special handling.

quote:

5. Would the slave be shunned by the Gorean community (as has been alleged in previous posts) for unilaterally dissolving a relationship like this?


Yes, of course. She would also be required to embroider a scarlet "R" (for runaway) on any article of clothing that she wore from then on.

quote:

6. Would not a Gorean Master be well within his rights to treat his slave in this manner (or any other manner of his choosing)?


Sure, but it might void the warranty, and AAA might refuse to tow the slave if it broke down more than 15 miles from home.

quote:

7. Would there be some manner of rationalization to marginalize this Master as not being "real" in order to legitimize her departure?


Yes. We meet regularly to decide who actually exists, and who is just a figment of our imagination. Sabrina regularly imagines unemployed masters with poor personal grooming habits and nasty dispositions, so I think that we would all agree that he wasn't real, and was, in fact, all her fault.







_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Dissolving Gorean Relationships - 11/28/2005 10:14:43 AM   
KatyLied


Posts: 12961
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		ummnnnn, I like it when the two of you get together.....

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Dissolving Gorean Relationships - 11/28/2005 10:28:41 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		Evidently you do not think much of what you (and others) have asserted as factual throughout many threads in this section. It is also a level of sarcasm and mockery that would have landed others (who are not moderators) on administrative restriction.

Nice double standard, where do I apply?

John

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Dissolving Gorean Relationships - 11/28/2005 1:20:49 PM   
Webmaster60


Posts: 396
Joined: 9/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

1. Would the slave continue to be happy under these circumstances because her Master was happy?


No.. simply because he is NOT happy.

quote:

2. Would the slave be doomed to this relationship for all time, because she had chosen to beg the collar of the "wrong" Master?

No.. a kajira is entitled to a Master.. she made her oath to a MAster.. when a man quite BEING a Master, she is no longer bound.

quote:

3. Would the slave have any rights to the "truth" from her Master?

Always.. I may tell mine, something is not her business. But never lie.

quote:

4. Would the slave have any rights to a level of care?

always. HE is responsible for ALL aspects of her person.

quote:

5. Would the slave be shunned by the Gorean community (as has been alleged in previous posts) for unilaterally dissolving a relationship like this?

Doubtfull. More likely HE would be shunned.

quote:

6. Would not a Gorean Master be well within his rights to treat his slave in this manner (or any other manner of his choosing)?

Yes, if it was within the spectrum of his ownership of her. But she's have know this going in. THe problem in her episode is that the original terms of her collar are no more.

quote:

7. Would there be some manner of rationalization to marginalize this Master as not being "real" in order to legitimize her departure?

Asked and answered.


_____________________________

Master Michael
~~~~~~~~~~
"To sin in silence when he should
speak makes cowards of men"

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Dissolving Gorean Relationships - 11/28/2005 1:23:58 PM   
Webmaster60


Posts: 396
Joined: 9/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Nice double standard, where do I apply?


Get a sense of humor. That was DAMNED funny..
Or a stick removal procedure..


_____________________________

Master Michael
~~~~~~~~~~
"To sin in silence when he should
speak makes cowards of men"

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Dissolving Gorean Relationships - 11/28/2005 1:48:40 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		Just as I suspected. You invalidated all the absolutes professed in earlier posts (including the assertion of slaves having "no rights").

Really, these threads have ceased to be bound by logic, facts or consistency and have now progressed into elaborate contortions to perpetuate your ongoing fantasy.

I'm well aware that you will (of course) choose not to see things that way and continue to profess your fantasy as reality. I'm also well aware that it's easy for either of us to profess anything we like, or to portray ourselves in any manner we like, here on the internet. Regardless of whether it bears any resemblance to reality.

So, I've taken the liberty of contacting your local lifestyle community to arrange a workshop discussion between you and I. I thought you'd feel safer in your own environment, within your own community, and I will pay for my own travel and lodging expenses. Evidently there are some folks in your local community who have enjoyed our online "give and take" and feel that there would be some educational benefit derived from a real time workshop entitled "Fantasy Within The Lifestyle: Separating Fact From Fiction" (folks like you and I do much more than simply type about it online).

I'm sure we can count on your participation. Evidently there is, as of the moment, no demo/lecture scheduled for the month of February. How does that suit your schedule?

John

(in reply to Webmaster60)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Dissolving Gorean Relationships - 11/28/2005 1:52:29 PM   
nenakajira


Posts: 221
Joined: 7/14/2005
Status: offline 		To answer in order....

1) I can't imagine being happy under those circumstances. But.. I suppose there is someone for anyone. The man does not seem much happier, however. While I do not have a psychology degree several of the things she mentions about her owner are warning signs for depression.

2) Noone is doomed to a relationship unless they choose to be. There are proper ways to end a Master/slave relationship just as there are proper ways to break up with a boyfriend or girlfriend.. or proper ways to quit a job. It's all in how you do it.

3) I'd have to say 'no' on that one.

4) I wouldn't say it was a right. Most men take care of their slaves. It makes no sense not to. Just as if you bought a car.... if you take care of it and get it proper maintenance it might serve you for years... if you do not it tends to break down. Women are much the same.

5) Once again it would depend on how she did it. And no matter how it was done I doubt the entire community would ever agree enough about anything to unilaterially shun someone. You might have noticed that we're an argumentative bunch.

6) The short answer? Yes. It's not a wise thing to do nor is it kind.. but it's within his rights. Thus why it's so important to know someone before you beg their collar.

7) That would be for men to answer. Slaves arent allowed to judge..... publically.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

After having read the following thread, I have several pertinent questions:

http://www.collarchat.com/m_212349/tm.htm

I'm curious as to how this situation might be viewed had it been a Gorean relationship:

1. Would the slave continue to be happy under these circumstances because her Master was happy?

2. Would the slave be doomed to this relationship for all time, because she had chosen to beg the collar of the "wrong" Master?

3. Would the slave have any rights to the "truth" from her Master?

4. Would the slave have any rights to a level of care?

5. Would the slave be shunned by the Gorean community (as has been alleged in previous posts) for unilaterally dissolving a relationship like this?

6. Would not a Gorean Master be well within his rights to treat his slave in this manner (or any other manner of his choosing)?

7. Would there be some manner of rationalization to marginalize this Master as not being "real" in order to legitimize her departure?

Should make for some illuminating replies.

John


(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Dissolving Gorean Relationships - 11/28/2005 3:05:14 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

Evidently you do not think much of what you (and others) have asserted as factual throughout many threads in this section. It is also a level of sarcasm and mockery that would have landed others (who are not moderators) on administrative restriction.

Nice double standard, where do I apply?

John



Ohhh boy. Do we open the Stadium of Blades for you both? What shall it be? Kailiauk turds at twenty paces? Dunny Paper on Tarn back? Perhaps something more gentle like a game of Kaissa? No? Then perhaps a Paga drinking contest would be more to your tastes?

Really gentlemen, I had hoped for better. I have to admit that I had and still have some doubts regarding Rover’s question, as he does appear to be cynical and wishing to prove that we are all wankers. Of course I may be completely wrong in this thought and if so tender my apologies in advance. I had been hoping that Leonidas would reply as he has so many times in the past with accurate and informative information delivered in his usual concise manner. Why I expected this I have no idea, for he usually replies to people such as LaM and LOD and my self with contempt and condescending mannerisms. Still I usually enjoy his posts and refer others to them for he is probably in contact with more of the Gorean Lifestyle Community than most of us…..

Really Rover that was just a tad naughty blowing the whistle on Leonidas being a Moderator. Even I wasn’t going to do that although I suspect quite a few knew anyway.



_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Dissolving Gorean Relationships - 11/28/2005 3:15:38 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Really Rover that was just a tad naughty blowing the whistle on Leonidas being a Moderator. Even I wasn’t going to do that although I suspect quite a few knew anyway.


It's a hoax to portray the playing field as level, when it is (obviously) not. Some people (because of their moderator status) receive preferential treatment. Those that he takes issue with receive warnings, or worse. Though they exhibit no different behavior than his own.

That is a double standard that all should be aware of, lest they run afoul of assuming that "fair is fair". I do not expect that the preferential treatment will change. Just that people may make decisions based upon the principle of "informed consent". A concept you are familiar with, I presume.

John

< Message edited by Rover -- 11/28/2005 3:18:08 PM >

(in reply to IronBear)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Dissolving Gorean Relationships - 11/28/2005 3:22:15 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		If this board is going to be of use to anyone, I think we should all try to read each other's post for what they actually say, without trying to figure out what motive is behind each post.

Yes, you can read quite a bit into John's posts. The same can be said if Michael's or Master Leonidas' or mine ... but the one certain reality is that what someone reads into another person's post may be accurate, but may just as easily be wrong, and if nothing else, they may just be blunt communicators.

At some point, can't we just understand that this board will be very boring if we all agree with everyone else ... so stop trying to trash anyone that thinks differently from us. If we don't have differing opinions, what purpose does this board serve?

Peace ... cc

P.S. This is a general comment, rather than a response to anyone in particular.

(in reply to IronBear)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Dissolving Gorean Relationships - 11/28/2005 3:31:26 PM   
lookin4plezur


Posts: 40
Joined: 5/15/2004
Status: offline 		I think "bratty" could be applied to men too.

just my opinion tho

Anissa

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Dissolving Gorean Relationships - 11/28/2005 3:35:49 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		Actually, I'm a sadistic bastard. But why quibble. *LMAO*

John

(in reply to lookin4plezur)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Dissolving Gorean Relationships - 11/28/2005 3:53:46 PM   
lookin4plezur


Posts: 40
Joined: 5/15/2004
Status: offline 		Do you have references? Can I see your papers? 100% AKC Registered Sadistic Bastard?

now don't jerk this girls chain.


Anissa

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Dissolving Gorean Relationships - 11/28/2005 3:54:42 PM   
LordODiscipline


Posts: 995
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		Well - I believe the noun is accurately reflective...

Of course... that is just me.

~J

_____________________________

"Anyone who thinks they're important is usually just a pompous moron who can't deal with his or her own pathetic insignificance and the fact that what they do is meaningless and inconsequential."
William Thomas

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Dissolving Gorean Relationships - 11/28/2005 3:59:30 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		Alas, I am but a mongrel sadistic bastard, without any pretense of a fancy pedigree. Though, if you follow the thread, I will continue to establish my sadistic bastard bona fides.

John

P.S. - Thank you LOD. Ever supportive.

(in reply to lookin4plezur)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Dissolving Gorean Relationships - 11/28/2005 4:51:51 PM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Evidently you do not think much of what you (and others) have asserted as factual throughout many threads in this section. It is also a level of sarcasm and mockery that would have landed others (who are not moderators) on administrative restriction.


Hmmm... well, looks like one of us doesn't have a sense of humor. I'm perfectly willing to accept that it's me.

I'm not sure what you're refering to that I have asserted as factual. Gorean slaves are property. They're maintained like property, neglected like property, abused like property. They go up and down in value like... you guessed it... property. If you don't respect one like... yep... property, they'll let you down and leave you in the lurch, usually when you can least afford it... kind of like... property. I may be wrong, but I think I've been fairly consistant in what I'm saying here on these boards.

I doubt my answers to these questions would come as a suprise to you, but alright, here you go:

quote:

1. Would the slave continue to be happy under these circumstances because her Master was happy?


As I alluded to in my oringal post, slaves don't come off an assembly line. They are human beings and so they do tend to differ somewhat in their reactions to things. I have to agree with Webmaster in his observation here that the man in question doesn't sound so happy, so even a girl who was completely selfless would probably find it hard to be contented in the situation described.

quote:

2. Would the slave be doomed to this relationship for all time, because she had chosen to beg the collar of the "wrong" Master?


She would, if her bonds to the man were sufficiently strong to keep her from running off. Some slaves are not bound particularly strongly to their masters. They can and do run off for reasons that only make sense to them. Others are bound very strongly, and stay when it makes no sense to anyone other than them. A slave isn't honor or duty bound to stay, if that is what you are asking. It is up to a slave's owner to enslave them. If a slave's owner does not, the slave running off should come as no suprise.

quote:

3. Would the slave have any rights to the "truth" from her Master?


No. She has no right to anything at all. She may take being lied to as reason to run away. Others may take a man's tendency to lie into account when considering his character and whether to associate with him. I doubt any of this is really news to you.

quote:

4. Would the slave have any rights to a level of care?


See above.

quote:

5. Would the slave be shunned by the Gorean community (as has been alleged in previous posts) for unilaterally dissolving a relationship like this?


Nope. If she had a pattern of running off, she'd probably be suspect in the eyes of someone considering her as a potential slave. Other than that, most of the folks that I know who have been around more than a day or two know better than to think that they can really know what went on in a situation like this. Unless you are there, all you know is the story that someone is choosing to tell.

quote:

6. Would not a Gorean Master be well within his rights to treat his slave in this manner (or any other manner of his choosing)?


Yep. And he would have to accept the consequences. If the consequence is a girl who doesn't serve well, or is gone entirely, that would be his doing. With the power comes the responsibility for the outcomes. With freedom comes the acceptance of consequences for ones actions. The power of a Gorean man within his own household is considered to be absolute, just like his responsibility for what goes on there.

quote:

7. Would there be some manner of rationalization to marginalize this Master as not being "real" in order to legitimize her departure?


You're making the mistake of thinking that we're as slave-centric as the BDSM community. The man in question, if the story being told is accurate, was displaying some character (or lack thereof) that we wouldn't consider consistant with Gorean manhood. Some folks might decide that he isn't one of us, and treat him accordingly. Doesn't have much to do with the slave, though.







_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Dissolving Gorean Relationships - 11/28/2005 5:01:08 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		Ok, I'm confused. Leonidas completely contradicts Webmaster. Yet both claim to be Gorean and of the same philosophy. Are one of you in error, or not what you claim to be?

Why don't you two work it out amongst yourselves first, and let me know what you decide upon. I wouldn't want to get between an internal squabble.

John

< Message edited by Rover -- 11/28/2005 5:06:05 PM >

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Dissolving Gorean Relationships - 11/28/2005 5:27:59 PM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Ok, I'm confused. Leonidas completely contradicts Webmaster.


There's an easy way to unconfuse yourself. Go read the books. You'll be in a perfect position at that point to offer some kind of informed opinion about which one of us is consistant with what you find there, and which one of us isn't (if one of us isn't). Do you really want to understand, or is this just more posturing?

quote:

Why don't you two work it out amongst yourselves first, and let me know what you decide upon. I wouldn't want to get between an internal squabble.


Sure John, you just wait right there, and we'll get back to you on that.

_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Dissolving Gorean Relationships - 11/28/2005 5:43:42 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		Look, I've had a hard time understanding much of what I've read here. As for posturing, there's plenty going around. Don't act niave or innocent.

Bottom line, you and Webmaster are the two most representative Goreans here on these boards. You both posture as if you are well versed in the Gorean philosophy and codified nature of Gorean society. And yet, you both come to different conclusions regarding (what I'm sure you agree are) several crucial and essential elements of that philosophy and codification. It's impossible to come to differing conclusions on those questions if there is, as you both assert, a rigid philosophy and societal codification.

Much has been made about the "personalization" inherent to BDSM (in a rather derogatory fashion). So let's see some of that philosophy and codification at work, if, as you assert, it exists. Don't try to portray this as me picking on all of Gor. I'm not. I'm picking on individuals who do not speak for all of Gor, and who have asserted untruths in a public fashion. We are not bound to accept those untruths, simply because a Gorean uttered them.

I'm willing to learn, but you have to be willing to be a teacher. It's not enough to simply say "believe me without evidence". That's called "faith" and I reserve it exclusively for my house of worship. I want to see evidence of this philosophy and codification at work. That's really not too much to ask for.

John

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 20
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