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The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. That's you. How is it broken (don't make me haul out the "perfectionist fallacy")? Why are you concerned about how everyone has an equal voice when you are clearly advocating such unequal vote as to effectively shut out a majority of voices (a quick glance at economic demographics will show this, as I've already argued)? And why should we overthrow our democracy?

You can at least take comfort in knowing that people with wealth always have de facto undue influence.

As do Masters over their slave(s).

Tim

[edited to add---yes, we live in a representative democracy, not a true democracy, but in the context of your argument, that's splitting hairs, changing none of the merits of the discussion.]

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ORIGINAL: KillaShack

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The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. That's you. How is it broken (don't make me haul out the "perfectionist fallacy")? Why are you concerned about how everyone has an equal voice when you are clearly advocating such unequal vote as to effectively shut out a majority of voices (a quick glance at economic demographics will show this, as I've already argued)? And why should we overthrow our democracy?

You can at least take comfort in knowing that people with wealth always have de facto undue influence.

As do Masters over their slave(s).

Tim

[edited to add---yes, we live in a representative democracy, not a true democracy, but in the context of your argument, that's splitting hairs, changing none of the merits of the discussion.]

Ok Tim,

In response to my post you posted this.

“The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. That's you. How is it broken (don't make me haul out the "perfectionist fallacy")?”

Im not even going to get into the rest of it. Its just plain wrong on soooo many levels. It was never a claim. It was a debate. If your confused on that issue. Scroll back and look.

Lets start over at the beginning…

Tim says…
We're left with Kirata's point: Why should a man with slaves get more votes than any other citizen?”

We are in a Gorean chat room talking about why and if slaves should effect someone’s vote total. There is no present time real world application for this in the states. So I took the question to be hypothetical or philosophical.

Looking at the question, we have a man with slaves and a man without slaves. Slaves is the issue, does their value give more influence. Slaves do not have a value stamped on their hand. In fact depending on the slaves skills, their values are going to be different. Each master has different needs for certain skills or desires. So this make the slaves value even more subjective as it differs from master to master. So you have to go deeper into the question. Slaves are property, both men have property. So the man with the most property total should get more influence. Keep in mind the question does not give you much to work with.

So my answer was: “To me its not a matter of those with and without slaves. I just think the bigger your house is the more say and votes you should have.”

Now I don’t know my Gor lore as well as I probably should. But I seem to recall influence being tied to wealth and property. But I did not want to stick my foot in my mouth so I used an old colonial reference instead. (( Edit: Keep in mind this is a pre-constitution refferance. ))

Tim brought up the constitution, and Kirata Wanted to bring it forward to current voting issues. And Aslanemperor through in the American revolution and the civil war.

All of a sudden this went from no real world applications and very little parameters, to a time after the constitution when there were rights for equal men and slavery is outlawed.

You are no longer really talking about the same question. You are starting a Debate.
So I called you on it. I said. “Ohhh good! I love a good debate but lets try and keep things friendly and lets not have you putting words in my mouth. I can stick words in my mouth fine without any help.”

I was playing devil’s advocate because that was kinda where I started. I don’t believe in the argument. For debates sake I’m running with it. Besides I like playing devil’s advocate. It’s the harder argument to win. Because its usually the wrong one.

I served Aslan back his point and he seemed to drop out. Good show! Now down to two.

Kirata was good fun. He was making points and valid arguments. But I think he faded off to bed and didn’t really come back into the debate.

That left Tim. Good god man… what the bloody hell? You pose a question, I debate it, then you respond with character bashing. **chuckles** and round and round it went. And when I finally asked you to make your point you said you did not have to. That this was my claim to make.  NOPE! It was a debate. I’m going have to say you forfeit.

That’s a sad way to win a debate.

On a side note… I was born in Scotland came the states when I was two. Became an American citizen at the age of 3. And stayed here when most of my kin went back to Scotland. I really love America and always felt that I owed her something because I was not native born. So I did a six year tour in the army. I love democracy. I love the whole system of checks and balances. But I do believe some are broken. And honestly… If you think a Scotsman could ever love the aristocrats and the rich elite, then you need to go watch Braveheart again.  **chuckles**

Killashack

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Hey, I never said word one about our voting system, for or against. I'm not even unsympathetic to your complaints. I'm just a guy asking questions that aren't getting answered. Restore my faith that you can read.

K.

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OK, I'm really tired, just getting home from a 14 hour day on little sleep, but what the fuck is this shit? Now I'm pissed.