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RE: Slave Sufferage - 9/13/2008 4:58:16 PM   
xBullx


Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		Hiya pretty Ally,

quote:

ORIGINAL: allyC

Greetings, Master Bull. I am seeking clarification if it pleases you to offer it. Are you saying that an enslaved woman has no opinion of her own? 



Ohh no...if that were the case I'd hate you and that isn't the case at all.

quote:


Or are you saying that as she becomes enslaved, many of her opinions become more akin to his through his enslavement of her?


Yeah that would be a good synopsis of me intent. Any functioning human mind will hopefully  manage at least a few thoughts on it's own accord, if not I suggest we start breeding puppets as slaves.

I'm betting you often have/had your own opinions and as time passes they would certainly mirror your owners more and more. Where they don't mirror his, I'm also willing to bet you know when and where, if at all how to properly express them. Your free will and freedom or self expression are most likely no more or less free than that of my Ishy. Of course I am not sure of this, but I have my suspicions.

I spend a good deal of time conversing with Ishy, if she were brain dead it is most certain I'd have a different girl. Concurrent to this point, if she becomes overly independent in her thoughts and actions I am quite handy with the whip and other forms of discipline in helping her remember that the life she surrendered to has little need for her unsolicited viewpoints. Sure she might have opinions, but do I want her too or will I allow her to express them is certainly atop the list of the how to survive within his chains register.

Serve him well little wench,

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to allyC)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Slave Sufferage - 9/13/2008 6:11:36 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7329
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Tal Tim,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Tal Orion,

Respectfully, I think you missed the point.

If we all simply decide for ourselves, then "ethics" is reduced to nothing more than personal whim.


If we do not decide for ourselves, then who decides?

quote:


And if the Constitution is so readily discarded, then how do people dare to claim themselves "Americans"?


Please elaborate on how the Constitution is being discarded? Please be specific as to which title and section you are refering. I do not see any part of it being discarded, so I am open to it being shown to me.

quote:


Or if they do, again, what would such a claim be but personal whim, like children making up the rules of the game as they play?


Why are you choosing to use the word "whim"? Yes we make up our personal code of ethics and morals as we live. I believe we should constantly comparing them to how we are acting today, and refine them when we see they fail.

quote:


The "slavery" issue as raised here is a different matter. At least in my state, consensual adult behavior does not violate the law.

Live well, friend.

Tim


I was speaking of consensual slavery. I do not physically force my slave to not vote, it is a condition of how things are in the interpersonal relationship. She chose to give up her rights when she begged my collar. Now that choice she made is something guaranteed under the Constitution isn't it?

Live well,
Orion

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Slave Sufferage - 9/13/2008 7:25:49 PM   
allyC


Posts: 776
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: Las Vegas
Status: offline 		Greetings, Master Bull and thank you.  :) I had figured that was what you meant but I did not want to just assume. I have had my desires, opinions, wants, and needs evolve over time to match and meet his own.  I belive to a large degree that type of change is typical of one who is enslaved over any length of time. There have been areas where my needs and feelings have not changed.  A few of which are very much opposed to his needs and wants.  I have learned over time that to bend and to make his wishes my own even when they are not what I want is always what brings the most fulfillment to him and putting his pleasure and fulfillment at the forefront of my thoughts and actions is exactly what I am here for.  Sometimes it is very, very difficult and I do struggle but I make the best out of the situation and push forward. There have been times when my expression of differences has not been what it should be.  I will not attempt to make excuses for said transgressions rather I will just chalk it up to human behavior and an unfortunate lack of self discipline on my part at those times. With regards to the original thread, my political views have changed very much over the decade that I have belonged to my owner.  They have most certainly changed due to the logic and salient points he has presented but also due to my ever-increasing dependence on his thoughts, desires, and views. If he were to tell me to vote a specific way, I would most certainly comply, however, he does not have to tell me to.  The profound influence he has over my thoughts and views is what compels me to vote the way I do because I agree with them.   Well wishes, Master. Cav's ally

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Slave Sufferage - 9/13/2008 7:54:44 PM   
Anarrus


Posts: 475
Joined: 11/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

If we all simply decide for ourselves, then "ethics" is reduced to nothing more than personal whim.



Tal Tim,

I'm trying to understand this statement a little better. Moral relativism as I understand it, allows for individual relativism. My understanding of the Gorean ethos allows for individual relativism, infact it seems to be a crucial part of it.
By your statement, are you rejecting indvidual relativism in complete favor of cultural relativism? If so, isn't the cultural relativism of current western society so much of what Gorean ethos rejects? Help me out here.

Iwyw

Anarrus

_____________________________

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free."...Goethe
"Send lawyers, guns and money" ..Warren Zevon

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Slave Sufferage - 9/13/2008 8:54:04 PM   
katushka


Posts: 34
Joined: 8/31/2008
From: the great steppe
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ishy

it is impossible for me to determine if what I want is really what I want because I want it, or because Master wants it. The goal in mastery is for them to be the same thing, so the line blurs until it is no longer visible....it is in my nature to adapt to his every wish in an attempt to please him. How else could I better please him than being exactly what he wants me to be, thinking exactly like he wants me to think?


Thank you, your response was very passionate, and most enlightening.

(in reply to ishyB)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Slave Sufferage - 9/13/2008 9:02:00 PM   
katushka


Posts: 34
Joined: 8/31/2008
From: the great steppe
Status: offline 		Hello Bull

I very much appreciate the feedback. You are right - I do need to tighten up my thoughts. Part of this process takes place when others challenge me to rethink my ideas.... as you have done.

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Slave Sufferage - 9/13/2008 9:15:14 PM   
FABLEVIS


Posts: 3
Joined: 8/4/2008
Status: offline
being a slave is all i need to be happy

(in reply to katushka)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Slave Sufferage - 9/13/2008 9:42:56 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 7246
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline 		~ FR ~
 
A Gorean slave, virtually by definition, cannot be considered a "person" for purposes of law (and quite properly is not in the books).
 
US law holds all people to be free and equal in their rights, but the fact remains that slaves do what they're told. That's why they're called slaves. Unless their Master commands them to vote, either they won't be voting or they're not slaves. And if he grants them the freedom to vote their conscience, he is, unh, freeing them. The only voting option that the circumstances will bear is to command them to cast their vote as he favors, so we'll have a look at that one.
 
Firstly, let's open it up by assuming that no "one man one vote" principle has been formally established in law. And secondly, to keep it simple, let's say it's just five Free Men sitting down at a council table to vote on some issue that affects them. Three of the men don't own slaves. One does have a girl. The fifth owns six slaves.
 
You're that fifth man.
 
Now, try to convince me that because you own six slaves the rest of us should just toddle along home and do whatever the fuck your imperial majesty decides. See how far you get.
 
Goreans slaves do not vote.
 
Kirata
 


 

< Message edited by Kirata -- 9/13/2008 10:40:52 PM >

(in reply to FABLEVIS)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Slave Sufferage - 9/14/2008 1:41:49 AM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Joined: 5/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:

Each person should ask themselves something on a very deep level:

Why am I here?

Why do I struggle so to understand this Gorean condition?

If a man; do I see something in this that speaks to me and pushes me to be more than I was?

If a woman; is there something about these Gorean men and their ideology that pulls at my very soul?

Or am I so pathetically bored that this message board is the best exterior entertainment I can find in my pitifull little life?

So anyway good luck folks and stop confusing yourself, if you don’t like the way Goreans think you don’t have to stay.

The fact is we’re right and that’s that.


I'm guessing this was addressed to me among others because I'm one of the ones who asked for elaboration.  If so, yes, there is something about this ideology that draws me.  The more I learn about a FC, the more I think it's an ideal relationship, at least for me.  And the more I speak to some of the FW on this board the more I admire them and want to make myself grow in that direction.  FW Maahsatti in particular has been a great inspiration to me, and others like Jahna and Grace have earned my respect a long time ago.

I don't think it's so black and white to say "If you don't like the way Goreans think leave" because on a lot of topics I absolutely love the way Goreans think, and on others I am less enthusisatic.  It's not like one thing - if it were then the FAQ thread would be a lot easier, n'est-ce pas?  For the most part I have been keeping my disagreements quiet, only asking for clarification if I think I might be misunderstanding something, but I've learned this isn't the best place to debate the whys and wherefores.

I hope that helps to clarify things,

Elisabella


_____________________________

you're just an empty cage, girl
if you kill the bird

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Slave Sufferage - 9/14/2008 3:03:22 AM   
FrankAr


Posts: 602
Joined: 10/1/2005
Status: offline 		FR..

Tal and greetings,

I think this topic should be reclassed....the free men whom have to put up with the belowing of crap and bullshit from females, whom should just shut up...LOL....

Be well.

Frank Ar.


_____________________________

I am just me, simple ol me.

Even the softest whisper can be heard in the loudest group....Frank H.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Slave Sufferage - 9/14/2008 6:36:14 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 16538
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anarrus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

If we all simply decide for ourselves, then "ethics" is reduced to nothing more than personal whim.



Tal Tim,

I'm trying to understand this statement a little better. Moral relativism as I understand it, allows for individual relativism. My understanding of the Gorean ethos allows for individual relativism, infact it seems to be a crucial part of it.
By your statement, are you rejecting indvidual relativism in complete favor of cultural relativism? If so, isn't the cultural relativism of current western society so much of what Gorean ethos rejects? Help me out here.

Iwyw

Anarrus


Tal Anarrus,

Sure, be glad too.

Thinking and deciding for ourselves is, of course, fine, but that does not mean that all ethics are subjective--if they were, they would simply be arbitrary decisions (logically speaking), not a system of ethics at all, at least not any likely to be recognized as such.

Truth is, we DO share a number of common values, and although there's room for individual application of those values, when someone steps too far outside them, we don't merely shrug and say, "Well, it's his choice."

We expect a man to live up to his word, for example. When one doesn't, we don't say, "Oh, his ethics are different." Instead, we see him as dishonorable. And many men have complied lists in past posts of common Gorean values.

And this is a strength about Goreans. I can have political differences with my friend Thadius, for instance (and others of course--just picking one example), and we learn more about why the other holds those views, even if neither of us are swayed. Yet we still respect each other. Why? As Thadius put it once (paraphrasing), "we probably agree on more issues than not--just that those issues haven't come up." What unites us is stronger than what might otherwise divide us. So we think independently, yet we do share an ethos, a common view of how to best live this life. We look at each other and see "Gorean."

I'm reminded of passages in Norman such as "There is fellowship among warriors" [of warring cities]. Caste cuts across city lines and spheres of influence, and while cities have Home Stones, the CASTES have the Codes. In essence, I suppose, on Earth, we are of different places and persuasions, but we are all of the Gorean "caste," and share at least similar Codes. Or in Earth terms, a similar ethos---one which includes respect for individual thought.

I wish you well, my friend!
(And I haven't forgotten your invitation---as soon as I get caught up! Thanks!)

Tim

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 9/14/2008 7:14:31 AM >

_____________________________

Yes, I still update my blog--thanks to all who asked!
http://writingtrue.blogspot.com
Gorean FAQ Threads

(in reply to Anarrus)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Slave Sufferage - 9/14/2008 7:25:38 AM   
thornhappy


Posts: 8596
Joined: 12/16/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Tal Tim,

It is an ethical application on whether to follow the law or not. Following the law does not make one ethical, it would depend upon their reasons for it. Maybe this discussion would be moot if someone could direct others to the section of the US Constitution that gives someone the right to vote.
Live well,
Orion
 

The Nineteenth Amendment, called the Susan B. Anthony Amendment, is ratified by Tennessee on August 18, 1920. It becomes law on August 26, giving women the right to vote.

thornhappy


(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Slave Sufferage - 9/14/2008 8:42:23 AM   
Kimveri


Posts: 781
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
Status: offline 		Howdy, folks,

Hello, Bull,

While your comments below caught my attention, there was much more from others on this board which incited comment. Some still cling to unnatural divisions of gender which discount merit utterly. I keep hoping that such earthly conditioning, born of fear & personal inadequacies, will be winnowed out in the process of discovering Gorean values, but I may be a foolish optimist. I can only continue to "block & move on".

quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx
Each person should ask themselves something on a very deep level:

Why am I here?

Why do I struggle so to understand this Gorean condition?

If a man; do I see something in this that speaks to me and pushes me to be more than I was?

If a woman; is there something about these Gorean men and their ideology that pulls at my very soul?


Does this mean free women cannot find appeal within Gorean philosophy & the discussion of it's application? Does this mean that free women must be here only to seek, find & follow a man or group of men? 

Hmmm....I am a woman & in asking myself why I am here on this board, the answer falls along the lines of ...

quote:

{...}"I see something in this that speaks to me and pushes me to be more than I was"{...}


I've found the Gorean man whose leadership I find compelling. He is not here on this board.

I am here for the opportunity to discuss, explore & perhaps learn about this philosophy. I'm here to participate in such opportunities fully, not sit quietly to assuage the tender misogynistic tendencies of some who would prefer me (& all females) to stfu.

To keep it on-topic, I'll add. The right to vote requires an opportunity to exercise that right. While a Gorean's slave may hold all the rights of any other citizen, she has surrendered the chance to exercise them except at his whim & direction. Thus the exercising of her right to vote has become his.

In keeping with the ethics involved in being a citizen of good standing, voting more than once is illegal. I do not associate myself with people who have, through their own choices & actions, displayed such a lack of ethical integrity

YMMV.

Well wishes,

~Kimveri 


_____________________________

"You get what you accept."

"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Slave Sufferage - 9/14/2008 9:13:39 AM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline 		Tal Kirata,

You said:

quote:

Goreans slaves do not vote.


I do hope you mean that your slaves do not vote, as mine most surely will be voting in Nov.

Now let me get to the nuts and bolts of that.  I believe it my civic duty to help turn out the vote, to get as many voter to the polls through legal means as possible.  Yes it is self serving that my slave will be among those that I get to the polls, but I am also bringing folks that do not agree with me politically.  I encourage folks on the opposite side of the issues and those voting for the other candidate to research and get to the polls.  I will be offering rides to the polls in my local community, yes for Dems, Indies, and Reps... the important part is that they take part in the process.  I have enough confidence in the values and positions that I have instilled in my girl, that I don't have to tell her how to vote, she will do that which pleases me in this matter without a need for command.  Therefore, if I were to restrict that privledge, would I not be going against my personal beliefs and thus be worse off than allowing her to cast a vote?

I am not skewing the vote in anyway by allowing her vote to be cast. On the other hand, if I chose to keep her home in Nov, one could argue that I was.

Just my thoughts.
I wish you well,
Thadius


_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Slave Sufferage - 9/14/2008 9:36:04 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7329
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		I actually meant on a Federal level. My mistake for not being clearer.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Tal Tim,

It is an ethical application on whether to follow the law or not. Following the law does not make one ethical, it would depend upon their reasons for it. Maybe this discussion would be moot if someone could direct others to the section of the US Constitution that gives someone the right to vote.
Live well,
Orion
 

The Nineteenth Amendment, called the Susan B. Anthony Amendment, is ratified by Tennessee on August 18, 1920. It becomes law on August 26, giving women the right to vote.

thornhappy




_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


(in reply to thornhappy)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Slave Sufferage - 9/14/2008 9:42:35 AM   
xBullx


Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		Hello Kimveri of the Desert..

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kimveri

Does this mean free women cannot find appeal within Gorean philosophy & the discussion of it's application?



Well, in the context of the question I asked it might; at least as it pertained to women liking the men that live and apply Gorean ideals, the questioned was directed at liking the men themselves and not solely at the philosophical aspects. But in the context that does a woman need a man to admire the Gorean philosophies and ideology, no I doubt that would be the case. I suspect that there are indeed very independent and private women out there that might just like the way the philosophies present themselves on their own merit.

quote:



Does this mean that free women must be here only to seek, find & follow a man or group of men? 



I hope the above response addressed this point as well.

quote:



I've found the Gorean man whose leadership I find compelling. He is not here on this board.



I am aware of that, he is indeed a good fellow...

quote:



I am here for the opportunity to discuss, explore & perhaps learn about this philosophy. I'm here to participate in such opportunities fully, not sit quietly to assuage the tender misogynistic tendencies of some who would prefer me (& all females) to stfu.



I rather doubt an independent woman such as yourself would stfu on any subject matter you fault compelled to discuss.

quote:



To keep it on-topic, I'll add. The right to vote requires an opportunity to exercise that right. While a Gorean's slave may hold all the rights of any other citizen, she has surrendered the chance to exercise them except at his whim & direction. Thus the exercising of her right to vote has become his.

In keeping with the ethics involved in being a citizen of good standing, voting more than once is illegal. I do not associate myself with people who have, through their own choices & actions, displayed such a lack of ethical integrity



We certainly agree on both counts here...

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to Kimveri)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Slave Sufferage - 9/14/2008 10:44:29 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 7246
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

You said:
quote:

Goreans slaves do not vote.

I do hope you mean that your slaves do not vote, as mine most surely will be voting in Nov.... I don't have to tell her how to vote, she will do that which pleases me in this matter without a need for command.

Tal Thadius,

Most probably any votes cast by slaves in the collars of men like yourself would only further my own preferences in the matter. But the "s" was a typo. I meant to say that Gorean slaves do not vote. I wholeheartedly applaud your feelings of civic duty. But undue influence is corruption, not patriotism. And I do not see how anyone can avoid the charge when speaking of slaves.

IWYW,

Kirata

 

Edited to add:  Here in the heartland we are getting whipped by the remnants of Ike. Debris is flying and tree limbs are down all over the place. I've already lost power twice this morning, and I just hope a window isn't next. I may disappear for a while.

 

< Message edited by Kirata -- 9/14/2008 11:00:15 AM >

(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Slave Sufferage - 9/14/2008 11:06:27 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 16538
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Tal Thadius and Kirata,

I agree with you both--not to be merely conciliatory, but because I believe you are discussing separate points.

First, Kirata is exactly correct. Gaming the system by whatever means to gain more than one vote is both unethical and spitting at the Constitution, a document I believe should be followed or amended properly, not simply followed when convenient nor circumvented when possible. If you and yours can't win an election fairly, then you can't fairly pretend to believe in democracy and the Constitution.

On the other hand, Thadius is quite right too---we have every right to try and persuade people to vote for our candidates and our positions. If that means voting in a block, so be it--that's what political parties are, after all. And that's what unions, lobbyist groups and so forth also have the right to do. Yes, it's often abused, but they have that right--perhaps even that responsibility, but that's another issue. And if I can convince Thadius to vote for my candidate, I will do so with no ethical cloud.

But this is the point of the secret ballot. Persuade if you can. Make your case. Get out the vote (I agree with Thadius here---it's a civic duty). Share your views with your family, your neighbors, your coworkers, and yes, your girl(s).

But on Election Day, each walks into the voting booth and casts a vote known only to the voter.

That's how democracy works. Or at least should.

Best,

Tim

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 9/14/2008 11:10:36 AM >

_____________________________

Yes, I still update my blog--thanks to all who asked!
http://writingtrue.blogspot.com
Gorean FAQ Threads

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Slave Sufferage - 9/14/2008 11:14:58 AM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

You said:
quote:

Goreans slaves do not vote.

I do hope you mean that your slaves do not vote, as mine most surely will be voting in Nov.... I don't have to tell her how to vote, she will do that which pleases me in this matter without a need for command.

Tal Thadius,

Most probably any votes cast by slaves in the collars of men like yourself would only further my own preferences in the matter. But the "s" was a typo. I meant to say that Gorean slaves do not vote. I wholeheartedly applaud your feelings of civic duty. But undue influence is corruption, not patriotism. And I do not see how anyone can avoid the charge when speaking of slaves.

IWYW,

Kirata




Edited to add:  Here in the heartland we are getting whipped by the remnants of Ike. Debris is flying and tree limbs are down all over the place. I've lost power once already this morning, and it's like to happen again. I may disappear for a while....




Tal Kirata,

I suppose that is where the rubber hits the road then,  what we define as undue influence.  Could that influence be also described as the pressure that certain unions, professions, churches put on their members?  How about the various spouses around the country?   Parents influencing their offspring?  I will not deny that I have "corrupted" her opinions and thoughts, I kind of feel that is necessary in exerting my influence over her behavior and attitudes.  I have not brainwashed the girl, she has simply come to see things in the light of my ways and thoughts, it helped that she was pretty in tune with those when I collared her.

I am confident enough in her intelligence and training that I take full responsibility for allowing her to exercise this privledge.  Even as a slave, she is still a citizen of my city, state, and country; so restricting that vote is more appauling to me than the cries about influencing her opinion, I might also add that preventing her from voting would illegal.

If my positions on this one issue make me less Gorean or her less of a slave, then so be it.

I hope that the power isn't out for long, and moreso hope you don't lose it at all.

As always,
Thadius

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Slave Sufferage - 9/14/2008 11:18:58 AM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline 		Tal Tim,

You raise a very valid point.  If I were wanting to guarantee a vote for particular issues or candidates, I could simply have the girl request an absentee ballot, have her fill it out in front of me and mail it off.

I appreciate your insight,
Thadius

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 80
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