Slave Sufferage

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All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Gorean Lifestyles >> Slave Sufferage

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Slave Sufferage - 9/9/2008 1:58:08 PM

Ph0enixF1re

Posts: 91
Joined: 5/11/2006
Status: offline

So as not to be accused of starting an off topic thread, let me state up front that I am not addressing your (any reader's) political views. Let's also assume that it is a moot point that the Master has the right to dictate what he wishes.

So, in the case that you and your slave have differing political leanings, would you or will you order your slave to vote a certain way in an election.

Now, here is how I see it relate to Gorean Philosophy....A couple of people in previous posts listed the Constitution as their "Home Stone." It seems clear to me that if you adhere to the concepts of democracy (or a democratic republic) that those ideals should trump personal views in politics. This presents an interesting ethical dilema (when personal values clash with higher values, or two personal values clash) in that your prime allegiance is to a set of ideals put forth in democratic tradition, but you have the power to order your slave to vote as you wish.

Any thoughts?

Post #: 1

RE: Slave Sufferage - 9/9/2008 2:07:19 PM

barelynangel

Posts: 6233
Status: offline

Back in February there was over 5 pages written about this of comments:

http://www.collarchat.com/m_1602737/mpage_1/key_voting/tm.htm#1603306

_____________________________

What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson

(in reply to Ph0enixF1re)

Post #: 2

RE: Slave Sufferage - 9/9/2008 2:17:02 PM

OrionTheWolf

Posts: 7329
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline

My response from the linked topic provided by another poster:

On the case of an owner using his property or FC's vote, it is a voting block. Just as a labor union, women's club or any other group could organize under the basis that they would all vote the same way, and then devise a method for who to vote for. I see nothing unethical about voting blocks, or a Gorean Man using his personal voting block how he wishes.

Live well,
Orion

To add to this: My slaves will not vote. They give up their rights and this will be one of them. I choose to not allow it, but if another owner wishes to do something different it is their choice.

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.

(in reply to Ph0enixF1re)

Post #: 3

RE: Slave Sufferage - 9/9/2008 2:45:26 PM

Kirata

Posts: 7246
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ph0enixF1re

Any thoughts?

Ditto angel's link.

K.

(in reply to Ph0enixF1re)

Post #: 4

RE: Slave Sufferage - 9/9/2008 3:43:49 PM

Stephann

Posts: 4212
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Los Angeles, CA
Status: offline

Hi folks,

I believe slaves are citizens first, slaves seconds. Citizens of a nation are born with rights and responsibility, and are not entitled to 'waive' those rights because they're excited about a new boyfriend. Slavery is a relationship dynamic; I may treat my home as my own little country, but until I find a way to secede from the nation, I (and those who inhabit my home) are stuck with those responsibilities.

I discuss politics with my slave. I expect her to do the research she needs to cast her vote responsibly. As her owner, I do feel empowered to decide who she votes for, or if she votes. I feel forcing her voting choice would be morally and socially unethical, though, so I don't (she voted for Obama in the Primary, I voted for Ron Paul.)

Regards,

Stephan

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to Ph0enixF1re)

Post #: 5

RE: Slave Sufferage - 9/9/2008 3:48:15 PM

Ph0enixF1re

Posts: 91
Joined: 5/11/2006
Status: offline

Orion, Kirata,
Thanks for taking the time. I did read the mentioned thread, but I was more hoping for a discussion of dealing with an ethical dilema which I didn't see there. Voting was a convenient example. I'm sure there are other instances when what we see as a personal value clashes with some other value (personal, Gorean, or societal). I'm interested in how people (the Free) reconcile those dilemas.

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 6

RE: Slave Sufferage - 9/9/2008 4:01:09 PM

Stephann

Posts: 4212
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Los Angeles, CA
Status: offline

Phoenix,

It's a question of hierarchy. I value my personal sovereignty first and foremost. By extension, I must value (at least in the legal sense) the sovereignty of others. I'm rarely afraid of legal consequences; the reason I don't kill someone who makes me angry is because I value his sovereignty, and killing him would deprive him of that sovereignty. Should he attempt to kill me, my slave, someone of my family, or a random stranger off the street, then his death becomes necessary to protect their sovereignty. A slave retains their sovereignty when they beg a collar, simply because they aren't legally, morally, or ethically capable of surrendering it. I tend to think of the surrender of a slave to be a sort of legal consent to become a protectorate state, if you will; Puerto Rico isn't a state, but it falls firmly under the authority and control of the US.

After sovereignty, I value Socrates' "social contract." I believe when we choose to live in a civilization (which, at the age of majority in any country, we do) we are burdened with responsibilities to either support the existing society, work peaceably to change that society, or to relocate to somewhere that we feel we can contribute to that society. Unlike Gor, we aren't bound to our Home Stone by birth; simply by being born somewhere we don't enjoy doesn't give us the excuse to reject our citizenship (as many, many Americans express a strong desire to do.) As such, adherence to the law is a means of adhering to that social contract.

Beyond these obligations, my personal morality is what's left. I don't value any philosophy or mode of thought higher than my own. If I find thoughts, ideas, or practices that I believe to be superior than my own, I try to learn from them of course; but I'm no longer at a point in my life where I could embrace a different mode of thought or reason.

Vague, sure; I hope it's helpful.

Stephan

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to Ph0enixF1re)

Post #: 7

RE: Slave Sufferage - 9/9/2008 7:25:40 PM

Musicmystery

Posts: 16538
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ph0enixF1re

Orion, Kirata,
Thanks for taking the time. I did read the mentioned thread, but I was more hoping for a discussion of dealing with an ethical dilema which I didn't see there. Voting was a convenient example. I'm sure there are other instances when what we see as a personal value clashes with some other value (personal, Gorean, or societal). I'm interested in how people (the Free) reconcile those dilemas.

Phoenix,

Let's presume the Constitution as the Home Stone--one person one vote. Lots of room for block voting, as Orion suggests---but each member CHOOSES to participate.

Forcing a vote is stealing an election in part. I can imagine the confusion in a country where the Constitution is circumvented when convenient and cheating on electiions is both history and current, but that's essentially the ethical problem.

Tim

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 9/9/2008 7:26:33 PM >

_____________________________

Yes, I still update my blog--thanks to all who asked!
http://writingtrue.blogspot.com
Gorean FAQ Threads

(in reply to Ph0enixF1re)

Post #: 8

RE: Slave Sufferage - 9/9/2008 8:20:40 PM

Malkinius

Posts: 1584
Joined: 1/9/2004
Status: offline

Tal Tim....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Let's presume the Constitution as the Home Stone--one person one vote. Lots of room for block voting, as Orion suggests---but each member CHOOSES to participate.

Forcing a vote is stealing an election in part. I can imagine the confusion in a country where the Constitution is circumvented when convenient and cheating on electiions is both history and current, but that's essentially the ethical problem.

Tim

Uh....you mean like Chicago?

<grins>

Be well....

Malkinius

_____________________________

A questioner by inclination...An Auctioneer for the fun of it
http://www.HouseMalkinius.com The goal is beauty.

(in reply to Musicmystery)

Post #: 9

RE: Slave Sufferage - 9/10/2008 6:55:53 AM

Leonidas

Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline

Slaves vote? That's cheating.

_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to Ph0enixF1re)

Post #: 10

RE: Slave Sufferage - 9/10/2008 7:11:03 AM

Malkinius

Posts: 1584
Joined: 1/9/2004
Status: offline

Tal Leonidas....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas

Slaves vote? That's cheating.

In Chicago, the slaves, the dead and the sheep all vote a straight Democrat ticket.

Be well....

Malkinius

_____________________________

A questioner by inclination...An Auctioneer for the fun of it
http://www.HouseMalkinius.com The goal is beauty.

(in reply to Leonidas)

Post #: 11

RE: Slave Sufferage - 9/10/2008 7:23:45 AM

Zarius

Posts: 184
Joined: 2/9/2007
Status: offline

Sheep vote?

OMG... AH well

In my house my slave has a different viewpoint than I do concerning politics, however, she has been instructed to vote my way... whether or not she does in the booth would be an etical and integrity point which only she, the voting machine and god know.

I W Y W

Btw, I heard that every third person in Chicago votes at 4 different precincts, any truth to that rumor? (snerks)

< Message edited by Zarius -- 9/10/2008 7:26:20 AM >

(in reply to Malkinius)

Post #: 12

RE: Slave Sufferage - 9/10/2008 7:32:07 AM

Malkinius

Posts: 1584
Joined: 1/9/2004
Status: offline

Tal Zarius....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zarius

Sheep vote?

OMG... AH well

Sheep, sheeple, same difference. In Chicago they are all Democrats.

quote:

In my house my slave has a different viewpoint than I do concerning politics, however, she has been instructed to vote my way... whether or not she does in the booth would be an etical and integrity point which only she, the voting machine and god know.

I W Y W

Btw, I heard that every third person in Chicago votes at 4 different precincts, any truth to that rumor? (snerks)

No, it has improved over that. There is so much federal oversight of the elections there have been international monitors. NO, I am NOT joking. Jimmy Carter did not come because by being a Democrat he was not considered a neutral party.

Before the last election, at least two out of the three Chicago Newspapers ran major headlines saying "Vote Early, Not Often".

The sad thing is, this is in the local papers almost daily and at least weekly. The corruption and scandals have been heavily reported and still the same people keep being elected and re-elected except in the worst of cases and those come close to winning.

Be well....

Malkinius

_____________________________

A questioner by inclination...An Auctioneer for the fun of it
http://www.HouseMalkinius.com The goal is beauty.

(in reply to Zarius)

Post #: 13

RE: Slave Sufferage - 9/10/2008 11:28:15 AM

Jahnaca

Posts: 726
Joined: 8/28/2006
Status: offline

Greetings

My quick ethical opinion

First off get rid of slave anything study the question without the clutter.

My first thought is one vote one person. Voting fraud and legal points of view.

So let us consider the question thusly; is it ethically and/or morally correct for Joe to walk over to John and tell him who to vote for? Is it ethically and/or morally correct for Joe to manipulate John in any shape form and or fashion to ensure Joe obtains two votes by proxy? What is the basis of your answers?

If we find it morally and ethically wrong for someone to vote twice either personally or by proxy then we have created our own standard. US law to my knowledge considers dual voting a felony offence, thus against the law. So despite our own ethical stand, we would be breaking the law of our home nation/state/jurisdiction. This leads to another ethical question is it right to break a law of our nation because we feel like it. Which leads to the next question, which laws and why.

Once we answer these questions and what ever else you personally come up with along the way we are better suited to start looking at our notion of “slavery”.

Jahna

_____________________________

Mass-produced human beings are attractive only to those who expect to be their benevolent mass producers. John Norman

(in reply to Musicmystery)

Post #: 14

RE: Slave Sufferage - 9/10/2008 12:46:12 PM

Kirata

Posts: 7246
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jahnaca

US law to my knowledge considers dual voting a felony offence, thus against the law.

Tal Jahna,

Even absent the law and the related ethical question you raise, I would remain disinclined to accept that the value of a man's opinion, and the consequent weight it should receive, can be justly determined by counting his slaves, whether in the form of their directed votes or otherwise.

IWYW,

Kirata

< Message edited by Kirata -- 9/10/2008 12:52:46 PM >

(in reply to Jahnaca)

Post #: 15

RE: Slave Sufferage - 9/10/2008 1:49:05 PM

Malkinius

Posts: 1584
Joined: 1/9/2004
Status: offline

Greetings Jahna....

It is perfectly ethical to tell someone else who you want them to vote for. That happens in every election cycle with all the political advertising. That doesn't mean that the other person will do so. Just that it is ethical to tell them.

As for manipulation. As a former Poll Inspector, or the person who oversees a poling site, it is illegal for someone to force someone else to vote in a specific way. This is why both employers and union officials are not allowed to assist someone who needs help voting. There were too many cases on both sides of both groups doing that. That is also why the bars in my home state are closed on election day until after the polls are closed. Too many votes for drinks.

Now...when it comes to the specific question at hand, can the owner of a slave command their slave to vote in a specific way? Of course they can. Outside of an absentee ballot, can they see how they voted? No. Telling someone how to vote with no threats behind it is legal. Specific phrasing I don' think matters that much as long as there is a lack of coercion. Marking a ballot for someone else who is legally competent to mark their own, is a crime. Will it matter? Some elections have been won by one or two votes but in general, one or two people doing this won't matter. The higher up and the more people voting the less any one specific vote matters.

I see it as perfectly acceptable to require my slaves to vote. The law allows this. I do put some limits on who my slaves vote for, or against, but I do not observe them voting. They obey or not. That is their choice. So, I stay within the law and within my ethics.

Be well....

Malkinius

_____________________________

A questioner by inclination...An Auctioneer for the fun of it
http://www.HouseMalkinius.com The goal is beauty.

(in reply to Jahnaca)

Post #: 16

RE: Slave Sufferage - 9/10/2008 6:36:43 PM

Musicmystery

Posts: 16538
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline

One quick point---

If a man can't make a compelling, convincing argument even to his slave about who deserves their votes, then perhaps he should spend more time assessing the question.

Tim

_____________________________

Yes, I still update my blog--thanks to all who asked!
http://writingtrue.blogspot.com
Gorean FAQ Threads

(in reply to Malkinius)

Post #: 17

RE: Slave Sufferage - 9/10/2008 6:51:08 PM

Thadius

Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline

**Fast Reply**

My slave is registered to vote. She will be voting. I have made sure she is educated on the issues and the candidates. I have not made up my mind about who I will be voting for, I do know who I will not be voting for and so does my slave. I saw a spark ignited in the girl when she was watching a speech the other day, I had to ask what had caught her interest so intensely. She replayed the part, it was Palin talking about "having a servant's heart", go figure, eh.

Just some of my quick thoughts on the subject.
Thadius

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to Musicmystery)

Post #: 18

RE: Slave Sufferage - 9/10/2008 7:24:50 PM

Musicmystery

Posts: 16538
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

Palin talking about "having a servant's heart"

*tries not to vomit*

_____________________________

Yes, I still update my blog--thanks to all who asked!
http://writingtrue.blogspot.com
Gorean FAQ Threads

(in reply to Thadius)

Post #: 19

RE: Slave Sufferage - 9/10/2008 7:28:42 PM

Thadius

Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Palin talking about "having a servant's heart"

*tries not to vomit*

I couldn't make that shit up, I did a double take when I heard it.

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to Musicmystery)

Post #: 20

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