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Carmen - 11/3/2008 7:43:59 AM   
Ars


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Joined: 3/19/2008
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I was listening to the opera Carmen to day. That made me think. Is the concept of a free woman to little explored in the Gorean lifestyle. Where would a woman like Carmen fit? For those of you that may not know the story of the book nor the opera Carmen let me explain.

The story in the book is about a condemned man Don Jose that sit in his jail cell and waits for his execution for murder, he tells the story of his life, about the gypsy girl Carmen that he loved and killed. The opera's main character is Carmen herself. Carmen is a woman that take care of herself, she is extremely sexual, but she she only give her love to those she herself choose, and only so long as she herself wish, no man own her. She speaks of this in the most famous song of the opera Habanera. The story then follow the turbulent love affair between Carmen and Don Jose a military man. In the end Don Jose love Carmen so much he want her to be only his. In the book he want her to stop living on her own, doing as she please and be a proper wife, in the opera he want Carmen to be his wife as they are not married. Carmen can read omens and she know that if she refuse Don Jose will kill her but still she answer no. In the book she say I know you will kill me but Carmen will always be free, in the opera she tell Don Jose she is free and she do not love him any more, and she know he will kill her but still she taunts him and tries to walk away. Don Jose then kill her and is arrested for her murder.

No why do this dramatic little love story make me wonder about Gorean issues. Well becouse as I said in the beginning of the post, where would a woman like Carmen fit in the Gorean lifestyle. No I am not here looking for where she would fit in the books, for in the books women fit nicely into the categories available. But where would she fit in the lifestyle. Carmen is a woman that use her sexuality for her own pleasure, she will only give her body to a man at her own free will, and will only stay with him as long as it please her to do so, and what more, Carmen is willing to die for her freedom.

Now Carmen is very far from the free woman the Gorean lifestyle usually have, she obey no man, she flaunts her sexuality, but on one point she do what is perhaps the most defining for what it is to be free, she die for her freedom. Instead of becoming a proper wife and let herself be possessed by Don Jose, she refuse and go to her death. Now I am perhaps rambling here, and I apologize, but the story of Carmen is not a new one, it was written before the women's liberation, and if one look at history, these kind of women have always existed, fiercely independent women that live their own life controlled by no man, willing to die for their freedom, but still being very sexual creatures, and I am asking where do such women fit in with the Gorean lifestyle, since quite many in lifestyle have expressed that the Gorean philosophies is universally applicable.

I wish you all well.
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RE: Carmen - 11/3/2008 8:19:46 AM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		She also works in a cigarette factory, participates in a smuggling ring, and sleeps with soldiers and bullfighters. A paragon.

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RE: Carmen - 11/3/2008 8:43:54 AM   
dawntreader


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Status: offline 		Ah, but i so enjoy listening to "Habanera "

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RE: Carmen - 11/3/2008 8:48:46 AM   
amelliagrace


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

She also works in a cigarette factory, participates in a smuggling ring, and sleeps with soldiers and bullfighters. A paragon.


True enough, Tim.  But then, the Goreans in the books were not always paragons themselves, or even nice people.
 
At the time Carmen was penned, cigarettes were not viewed with the disdain they currently garner in our society.  As to smuggling, Gor had a caste of theives, did it not?  What difference is there between sleeping with soldiers and bullfighters, as opposed to merchants and lawyers?  I've not slept with any of those myself, but if girl talk is even remotely accurate, there probably isn't much difference from group to group, only individual to individual.
 
This thread puts me in mind of a couple previous threads.   http://www.collarchat.com/m_747659/mpage_1/key_shootout/tm.htm#748218\
http://www.collarchat.com/m_1445487/mpage_1/tm.htm

Regards-
Grace

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RE: Carmen - 11/3/2008 9:04:49 AM   
amelliagrace


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ars

Now Carmen is very far from the free woman the Gorean lifestyle usually have, she obey no man, she flaunts her sexuality, but on one point she do what is perhaps the most defining for what it is to be free, she die for her freedom.


Interesting thought, Ars.  I've made no secret in this forum of my belief that the truly free are willing to bleed for it.  That said, if we are to consider Carmen to be Gorean, then there is definitely a bit of a rub.  Were she to be considered to be GFW, at best she would serve as a rather poor example, on the whole, of a Living Gorean woman in this community.  Yet, she doesn't strike me as being a true Panther, either...but then, I haven't read much about the Panthers yet.

Regards-
Grace



quote:

Instead of becoming a proper wife and let herself be possessed by Don Jose, she refuse and go to her death. Now I am perhaps rambling here, and I apologize, but the story of Carmen is not a new one, it was written before the women's liberation, and if one look at history, these kind of women have always existed, fiercely independent women that live their own life controlled by no man, willing to die for their freedom, but still being very sexual creatures, and I am asking where do such women fit in with the Gorean lifestyle, since quite many in lifestyle have expressed that the Gorean philosophies is universally applicable.


Indeed, such women have always been around, just not in visible abuncance.  If Carmen had been a man, determined to dump a female (regardless of the consequences) bent on holding him within boundaries of her own choosing, rather than be tied to her in marriage, regardless of emotional attachment to her, chances are he would look Gorean - at least on the face of things.  It wouldn't necessarily make him a guy you'd want to live next door to, an example of Gorean excellence, or the most popular fellow in town.
 
Regards-
Grace

< Message edited by amelliagrace -- 11/3/2008 9:05:18 AM >

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RE: Carmen - 11/3/2008 9:10:46 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

At the time Carmen was penned, cigarettes were not viewed with the disdain they currently garner in our society.  As to smuggling, Gor had a caste of theives, did it not?  What difference is there between sleeping with soldiers and bullfighters


Grace,

The point was not the evil of cigarettes, but rather that this paragon was cheap labor. Gor has a caste of thieves in only one city, Port Kar, a largely lawless town--for much of its existence, it didn't even have a Home Stone. As for sleeping with soldiers and bullfighters--the not subtle hint is that she's a prostitute (or at least a fickle gold-digger).

Tim

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 11/3/2008 9:12:14 AM >

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RE: Carmen - 11/3/2008 9:35:53 AM   
amelliagrace


Posts: 1792
Joined: 8/4/2007
Status: offline 		Tim -
 
Working as cheap labor in a factory (or anywhere else) is not, in and of itself, evidence of lack of virtue.
 
Point taken, with regard to Port Kar.  Then again, I don't find much virtuous or admirable in having a caste of Assassins, either.
 
Gold digger?  Fickle?  Quite likely.  This is not a woman most men would desire to take home to Mom.  Would those traits, in and of themselves, render someone non-Gorean?  The crux of the matter seems to me to be where the line is between being a crappy example of a Gorean, and not being one at all.  And that point, as we all know, is one of ongoing debate.
 
Regards-
Grace

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RE: Carmen - 11/3/2008 9:44:32 AM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		Whatever. I'll stick to performing the music, and let you all Goreanize her.

Enjoy.

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RE: Carmen - 11/4/2008 11:27:31 AM   
Ars


Posts: 37
Joined: 3/19/2008
Status: offline 		Greetings:

quote:

Interesting thought, Ars. I've made no secret in this forum of my belief that the truly free are willing to bleed for it. That said, if we are to consider Carmen to be Gorean, then there is definitely a bit of a rub.


I am not saying we should consider Carmen as a Gorean but rather think about the fact that there are women like her.Women that are very independent and free in nature but that use their sexuality for their own pleasure and benefit. If like some Goreans say that Gor is a universally applicable philosophy, where would women like Carmen fit?

quote:

If Carmen had been a man, determined to dump a female (regardless of the consequences) bent on holding him within boundaries of her own choosing, rather than be tied to her in marriage, regardless of emotional attachment to her, chances are he would look Gorean - at least on the face of things.  It wouldn't necessarily make him a guy you'd want to live next door to, an example of Gorean excellence, or the most popular fellow in town.


I agree, if Carmen had been a man she would have had no problem fitting into the Gorean philosophy, but as she is a woman, would she fit at all, where would she fit, and if she do not, do that mean that the Gorean philosophy is not the best possible way to live for every human being as some Goreans claim?

I wish you well

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RE: Carmen - 11/4/2008 11:31:23 AM   
Ars


Posts: 37
Joined: 3/19/2008
Status: offline 		Greetings

quote:

The point was not the evil of cigarettes, but rather that this paragon was cheap labor. Gor has a caste of thieves in only one city, Port Kar, a largely lawless town--for much of its existence, it didn't even have a Home Stone. As for sleeping with soldiers and bullfighters--the not subtle hint is that she's a prostitute (or at least a fickle gold-digger).


Carmen is a gold digger, she will sleep with a man if she feel like it, that be for material gain or just for pleasure. However in the books many of the Gorean men use sex as a way to get what they want, why is it worse that Carmen as a woman do the same?

I wish you well

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RE: Carmen - 11/4/2008 11:56:05 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 16538
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		OK, fine. Here's the thing.

The way that you all are going about this, you could pick any character at random and argue that character is Gorean.

Hence, in your worlds, everything is Gorean. All right--but if so, then what's the point?

In the U.S., we have murderers. That that mean murder defines the U.S.?

Further, I didn't say it is worse that Carmen sleeps with men to get what she wants. I said it's not a defining Gorean characteristic.

You want to present Carmen as a Free Woman. Actually, she's a peasant, a gypsy, with low status in 19th century France. If we take your definition of "free," then every two-year old throwing a tantrum to get its way is "free."

That doesn't mean she's not a romantic, enticing character. Just not particularly Gorean. Her "code" is her own whim.

Nor is the comparison with the male Gorean characters accurate. They don't "use sex as a way to get what they want." Sex for them is a given, completely separate from their other objectives. They certainly don't sleep with women in order to manipulate them. [Sex for manipulation is an Earth trait, as noted several places in Norman's novels. And Don Jose is clearly such a weak, love sick Earthling, allowing his obsession to overtake his reason.]

So no, while Carmen is a great story, nothing about it is Gorean. Applying liberal amounts of imagination and justification may well fill pages and pages in a thread, but all that will remain speculation at best, if not outright nonsense.

You asked.

Tim

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 11/4/2008 12:00:06 PM >

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RE: Carmen - 11/4/2008 1:27:40 PM   
amelliagrace


Posts: 1792
Joined: 8/4/2007
Status: offline 		Ars and Tim -
 
Actually, I don't think Carmen is particulary Gorean.   What I did say was that she might "look Gorean" viewed from a particular paradigmn.
 
Granted, for Goreans, sex is viewed as a given, as part of the totality of life.  As for Gorean men not using sex for manipulation...well....not all the time.  But it was definitely used in the books as a tool, where slaves were concerned, at least part of the time.
 
I wouldn't liken Carmen to a two year old throwing a tantrum.  Two year olds engaged in such behavior, unlike Carmen, are not really capable of - and willing to - take responsiblity for their actions, and proceed anyway, having judged the cost acceptable given the objective.
 
So, what is to be said of Carmen?  IMO, she was a free woman of unsavory ilk, though not a Gorean one.  As has been discussed in this forum ad nauseum, the traits we think of as Gorean are not really unique to Goreans.  If it is Gorean to desire dying free rather than living chained - provided that is one's true nature, that is - then Carmen held at least one trait that is also seen in Goreans.  A second one would be living true to standards set by and for self, regardless of popular societal norms.  A third is accepting the consequences of one's actions.
 
Does that make her Gorean?  No.  What it makes her is the type of woman that makes all strata of society a bit green around the gills.  She was a nasty little piece of work, in some regards.  Such people have played some importat roles.  General George Patton comes to mind.  Sheesh!  Talk about manipulative, marching to his own drum, damn-the-consequences personality!  The fictional Scarlett O'Hara... wasn't far from reality, actually.  Such women saw to it that their families survived without being completely starved, scattered, and destroyed.  They were not necessarily very likable.  (I'm a decendent of one of those Reconstruction Era cast iron, steel magnolia, bitches.)  IMO,  men who resemble Carmen have found themselves in a more suitable nitch in life more often that women of the same variety.
 
No, Ars, Gorean as we know it doesn't seem to have a place for women like Carmen, though they appear to live true to their natures.  But then, maybe if there is ever actually a substantial consensus on what constitutes a Gorean, a label might be found for the Carmens of the world, within Gorean life.  I'm not holding my breath.
 
Regards-
Grace

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RE: Carmen - 11/4/2008 1:44:17 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

If it is Gorean to desire dying free rather than living chained - provided that is one's true nature, that is - then Carmen held at least one trait that is also seen in Goreans.  A second one would be living true to standards set by and for self, regardless of popular societal norms.  A third is accepting the consequences of one's actions.


Grace,

This romanticizes the old gal.

She doesn't make some nobel decision to live free--she rebukes a lovesick puppy of an officer who's essentially stalking her. Nor does she make any apparent conscious decisions to live as she uniquely is--she's a gypsy, and lives as do the gypsies around her. Nor does she consciously accept the consequences of her actions---the guy stabs her. They didn't discuss it first.

Tim

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RE: Carmen - 11/4/2008 3:47:25 PM   
justagirl246


Posts: 31
Joined: 8/29/2008
Status: offline 		Greetings!

It is my honest opinion that Carmen is not a character I would consider Gorean.  I do not think she necessarily sees herself as fulfilling the "natural" place in the order of things.  I certainly wouldn't consider her a Panther, and she's not a "classic" FW, either.

I tend to dislike the "Let's see if we can twist this to fit by working semantics a while..." approach to arts appreciation. :)  I *love* some of the music from Carmen (and have even performed some of them, although not in grand stages... ~smiles~), but I still have to say I don't see it as a good fit.

Just my opinion, as a humble Torvie resident (I usually identify as a bondmaid but I guess I'm more of a more-well-behaved-and-humble fw... ~makes a face but accepts the reality for what it is right now).

Well wishes to all,
~jag

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RE: Carmen - 11/4/2008 4:28:16 PM   
amelliagrace


Posts: 1792
Joined: 8/4/2007
Status: offline 		We can agree to disagree about the preminitions/omens, and how seriously the gypsies tended to take such things.  As for the rest - what's a little romantization around this joint?  After all, most of what passes for 'slave" is pretty darn romantisized.

Regards-
Grace

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RE: Carmen - 11/4/2008 5:14:01 PM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		Hi, based on the little information offered and i don't know the story, i don't see where it speaks about her being enslaved.  Marrying someone is not slavery, its not a concept of slavery, its not a woman being mastered and enslaved.  IF the Man was going to enslave her, he would have and he didn't need marriage to do it.  So i am really confused as to how people are connecting the fact that she died because she refused to marry him with Gorean slavery.  SHe didn't die because she wanted to remain "free" she died because she didn't want to marry THAT man and he didn't really care for her answer.  FC according to the books is a concept of marraige, and FW and FC's are Free on Gor and many embrace that freedom.  Their refusing to marry a Man and they subsequently get killed by the Man for their refusal doesn't mean they died to remain free, but instead they died because the Man couldn't take her denial.  She was denying HIM, because he wasn't a Man who compelled her either as a woman who enjoyed her freedom or a possible slave to be connected to him.

I think people are trying to use his wish to have her as a concept of if she gave into him and became his wife she would somehow be his slave and lose her freedom.  The story here the the girl enjoys sex, but doesn't connect to a Gorean aspects of slavery in any way, nor do i see a connection with Gorean philosophies and ethos in what people are offering as summary of her and her actions and the story. 



angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 11/4/2008 5:28:36 PM >

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RE: Carmen - 11/4/2008 6:07:33 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7329
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings Grace,

Romantization is fine, in the proper perspective. What passes for slave may be romanticized by some, but that usually causes the girls that have no clue to get a harsh dose of reality when they actually are placed in it. There may well be a few qualities in Carmen that may coincide with some qualities we see in the Gor series, but that is far from saying Carmen is Gorean. I believe that is the point Tim is putting forth.

Live well,
Orion


quote:

ORIGINAL: amelliagrace

We can agree to disagree about the preminitions/omens, and how seriously the gypsies tended to take such things.  As for the rest - what's a little romantization around this joint?  After all, most of what passes for 'slave" is pretty darn romantisized.

Regards-
Grace


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RE: Carmen - 11/4/2008 6:41:16 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 16538
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Status: offline 		angel,

Not only is she not in danger of enslavement---the guy is completely pussy whipped.

Tim

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RE: Carmen - 11/4/2008 8:08:03 PM   
Cherylmazana


Posts: 1151
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline 		There are women like Carmen in Gor, they are called She Urts. They sleep with men for food, live freely by the canals and thumb their noses at conventional Gorean society.

There was also Verna, as a panther she traded for what she wanted, slept with any man she chose, and in the end decided she would rather be free than a Ubara.

The difference is that eventually all these women were enslaved, and a Gorean man wouldn’t kill a woman, he would collar her and then take the time to break her to the collar.

Carmen isn’t a Gorean story, if it was she would have been collared, and then I expect she would have made a spectacular slave. None of the women in the books who exhibited Carmen’s qualities stayed free for long.

All types of women are covered in the books however in the end it is not are the women Gorean because under the right circumstances they all have the potential to be Gorean slaves, it is rather do the men have the potential to be a Gorean man? And in that Don Jose failed.

Cheryl

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RE: Carmen - 11/4/2008 8:30:47 PM   
amelliagrace


Posts: 1792
Joined: 8/4/2007
Status: offline 		FR -
I never said she was a slave, or that marriage equates to slavery.  The point I was making was that - IMO - she preceived marriage as a life she didn't want, that being in one would have resulted in reduction of autonomy that she desired.  No more screwing who she wanted, when she wanted, and no more gold digging.
 
Cheryl -
 
I'm not so sure she'd have made a good slave.  Could she be enslaved?  Certainly possible, as all but a - my opinion - fraction of one percent of human beings are either captivatable or enslaveable, given the right circumstances.  But a good one?  She'd more likely have wound up as sleen fodder.
 
Grace

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