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The Natural Order of Things - 12/19/2005 2:07:58 PM   
Webmaster60


Posts: 396
Joined: 9/10/2005
Status: offline 		This is probably going to draw some fire, but what the hell hmm?
We've touched all over it in other threads.. But never directly addressed the issue (that I know of).
As a Gorean Man, and Free Person, I believe it is my biological (is that the right word) right, my birth right, to take and own a woman. I see women as put here to serve in some capacity or another.
Now lets cover the initial arguements. YES there is an exception to every rule. Are there women stronger, faster, smarter, than I? I'm sure! But it does not take away form their biological rung on the ladder. she is here to be Mastered. Am I the Master for ALL women, Nope! I do tend to have a certain effect on a girl that overtly or covertly has a slave mentality.. I can't explain that really.. perhaps those who have met me real time can help. But there is something about a Man who KNOWS he is a Master. It DOES call to the slave in EVERY woman.
I do evaluate every woman I see in their potential as a slave. Some would be valuable, some without value. But from the dawn of time.. Males of the species dominate their species. Now Puhleeeze don't being up some brazillian spider monkey where the female is the head stud..and NO.. no matriarchal society as ever flourished, prospered, or survived.
Much like dominant women or homosexuals..
Dominant Women.. are there some? sure. I've met one or two in my LIFE and have a huge amount of respect for them. I "feel" there may be one or two here.. I like the way LZ thinks....
Most (starts stacking the sandbags) are women whom have not yet met that man who, when he calls to her, her belly WILL answer. From then, she can run away or be forever lost to him.
Homosexuality.. Not as a sexual kink.. I don't care what you put into whom as a matter of sexual gratification, but as a lifestyle? Name one animal species that survives homosexually. Lets not count the asexuality of earthworms please.

That was the rant..
The question.. Do you believe in a 'natural order'? Do you see the Male of the species at the head of such order? If not, why? Are the women of the world biologically BOUND to serve us?

_____________________________

Master Michael
~~~~~~~~~~
"To sin in silence when he should
speak makes cowards of men"
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RE: The Natural Order of Things - 12/19/2005 2:39:41 PM   
starshineowned


Posts: 1551
Joined: 4/19/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Greetings..~smiles~



quote:

Do you believe in a 'natural order'?
Yes

quote:

Do you see the Male of the species at the head of such order?
Yes

quote:

Are the women of the world biologically BOUND to serve us?
"serve us"..on a personal level can say yes to this...overall intented reason?..To compliment, and be an asset to.


starshine
Happy slave of Master Delvin

(in reply to Webmaster60)
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RE: The Natural Order of Things - 12/19/2005 2:49:27 PM   
DesertRat


Posts: 2774
Joined: 11/29/2004
From: NM/USA
Status: offline 		I see evidence of a belief in a natural order, and if that works for you that should be good enough. I don't think you should expect it to work for everyone, though. Your kink is your kink. You're fully entitled to it. I don't know how anyone could prove that women are biologically bound to serve us without cherrypicking data.

Some women are most definitely bound to serve men. But the ones who don't feel they are? Well...they aren't.

Bob

(in reply to Webmaster60)
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RE: The Natural Order of Things - 12/19/2005 3:06:48 PM   
fyreredsub


Posts: 3403
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline 		yes, i believe in the natural order, it is what continually calls to me, something i can't ignore no matter how hard i try to fight it. societal conditioning is ingrained deeply in me as well as life experiences that cause me to fight my belly.sometimes i am my own worst enemy.(but yet here i am still seeking to learn about Gorean slavery and being mastered).
running is what this girl does best,not that it does much good...the belly still can't be ignored...
Master Michael,you DO have that effect ... and its not an explainable thing....just that slow deep burn deep in ones gut.
its biological and pysiological(sp), and psychological........perhaps even an emotional one.


< Message edited by fyreredsub -- 12/19/2005 3:11:31 PM >

_____________________________

"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

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RE: The Natural Order of Things - 12/19/2005 3:08:40 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		Thanks for making this post. I hope you don't get bashed for sharing such raw feelings, and I hope others can share equally without getting backlash. This is a great issue to struggle with, and from my point of view, I struggle with it quite a bit.

One of the Roman Emperors, Trajan I think, said something to the effect that one of the things about being an empire, is that occasionally you are required to act like one.

So, the answer is yes, I think men are at the top of the natural order, but one of the things about being at the top of the natural order, is that occasionally they are required to act like it.

This is a hard test, because unlike the pool of slaves presented in the Gor books, the pool here on Earth is educated, thinks for themselves and has laws that allow them to back out of anything they get into. So, if they do give themselves, they are likely to: a) not like it if that gift is abused, b) easily see that for what it is, c) be more than willing to apply the remedy.

So, that leads to the second part of that question, are women biologically bound to serve men. I would say that the answer is no ... women are not biologically bound. SOME women are mentally bound to serve SOME men, because they have developed a confidence level with that particular man, and to them that man passes test number one in that they act like they deserve to be at the top of that natural order.

Which leads to the only logical conclusion. Men are at the top of the natural order ... but males with the intellect and social skill of boys, are not.

(in reply to Webmaster60)
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RE: The Natural Order of Things - 12/19/2005 3:18:53 PM   
fyreredsub


Posts: 3403
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline 		i agree caitlyn..the last statement....but usually that test is, they DO call to the slaves belly,otherwise the woman tends to be a force in many ways, in her own right, with any lesser of a man.

_____________________________

"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

(in reply to caitlyn)
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RE: The Natural Order of Things - 12/19/2005 3:44:29 PM   
sunshine333


Posts: 203
Joined: 8/16/2005
Status: offline 		i tend to believe that there is a natural order of things and that men are on the top rung. i don't know what makes this so ... biology, emotions ... etc. but i believe that it is so. and that is the way i, generally, relate to this lifestyle. i love being female and all the stereotypes it entails. i am nurturing. i am gentle. i am soft spoken. i enjoy serving. i like all things girly. and when i am with a man who enjoys his masculinity as much as i enjoy my femininity ... well ... i simply flourish and revel in the contrast.

however, i also believe that women are strong and intelligent and totally capable of owning slaves themselves. from my experience, they rule differently and the energy is different between them and their slaves.

humbly,
sunshine

(in reply to Webmaster60)
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RE: The Natural Order of Things - 12/19/2005 4:19:58 PM   
Wildfleurs


Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Webmaster60

The question.. Do you believe in a 'natural order'?


No.

quote:


Do you see the Male of the species at the head of such order? If not, why?


No. I think if a person has to fall back on your gender then they aren’t capable of dominating others effectively.

quote:


Are the women of the world biologically BOUND to serve us?


No.

I like the property aspect of Gor, which is why I read these boards. But frankly I’m black and the whole natural order just sounds a bit to similar to the natural order of whites over blacks that I’ve heard. I’m not calling gorean’s racist at all, I’m just saying that it’s the same argument to try to justify acting a certain way.

C~

_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

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RE: The Natural Order of Things - 12/19/2005 4:33:48 PM   
MasterFerdinand


Posts: 59
Joined: 11/30/2005
From: Hell, or Texas...whichever...
Status: offline 		Sure there's a natural order, and Men are meant to rule, women are meant to serve, these are generalities.
In truth, although Men are meant to rule, because of our society, men aren't taught to rule anymore, so you're left with the Natural Leaders, and followers. So there's a difference between Men, and men.
Women are naturally meant to submit to their Men, but when they get abused, or can't find a Man, they naturally grow dominant, because, after all, someone has to lead!
I guess, after all, it comes down to this, when people find a Natural Leader, they follow. As Natural Leaders, we have found the Gorean Lifestyle, good for us. We needed a fairly sane Haven!
Homosexuality. Hmm. Women are sexual creatures, if they are abused enough by men, they'll turn to each other. Men are not Naturally homosexual. The gay man is a follower in search of his Leader. And going about it Unnaturally because Man's duty to the species is to Pro-create.
Anyway, just a thought.... and Thanks Michael for bringing it up!

_____________________________

Everyone seems normal, until you get to know them

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RE: The Natural Order of Things - 12/20/2005 3:23:55 AM   
nephandi


Posts: 3930
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		Well, biologicale ruling and serving do not realy come into it, men are the active, the one that bring food, protects and directs, while the woman is the passive, the one that nutures and need protecting. Just like in the ying yang symbol this meant balance, none realy served the other but the womane needed the man`s active to her passive. Basicaly women are less agressive, and more kind and nuturing than the men, she will want to take care of children/her man/ family, whatever by making sure they are well, have food and are happy, and i guess this urge can quikly translate into an urge to serve. While the man have the urge to protect, to fight for his home and provide the food and i guess this will easy translate into a need to rule.

i belive men and woman is equaly fit to rule, Norway have had werry competent female rulers a few times, other cotries to. For example our old prime minister Gro Harlem Bruntland, a woman that ose strenght and authorithy, and even those that was against her political wiews usualy respected the woman herself, now she lead some huge international health organisation. But there will i think, unelss sosiety force us to become what we are not, sexless and alike, there will always be fewer female rulers, most women want other things and are not as ambitious to rule.

A few days ago i head of a horendous thing, where the sosial servises office in one erea of Norway get no money to help pepole this year becouse they dont have enough women on the board of directors, and companies all over suffer the same, i belive it is good and have mutch respect for a women that wish to be a leader, and i will cheer her to the top, but i belive me and most of my sex have no desire to rule. i am physicaly as strong as a man, i am healthy, and i have a terrible temper, i even like boy stuff like computers, computer games and so on, and most of my frinds and male as i have more intrests in common whit them than whit myh fellow females. But i feel no ambition to rule or be the boss of anything, rather if put in such a position of telling others what to do, i often feel uncofortable, i have ambitions for me, to become a good Occultist, the best there is, to advance peronaly, but no to rule, i feel mutch more comfortable being protected and ruled than as protector and ruler.

My mother have found herself a boyfrind, her first i think since my birth, a kind good man, just like she deserve, but i see that often she, my strong, authorative mother, fall into the habit of letting this man deside what they should be doing, not realising it ofcourse, for the instinct by nature steps in, i am female, he is male, he is protector, i am the protected, he lead and i will follow.

Are women born to serve, no i dont think so, but often they do anyway as they trust and feel safe under the direction of the man that protects them. Some women stand on the top and shine, proud and independant, rulers equal to their male colluges, the rest of us look for or follow our protector like our genes teatched us so long ago.

Ofcourse this is just my opinion and i do not belive in universal truths, only personal ones.

(in reply to MasterFerdinand)
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RE: The Natural Order of Things - 12/20/2005 6:09:04 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Webmaster60
The question.. Do you believe in a 'natural order'?

No.
quote:

Do you see the Male of the species at the head of such order? If not, why?

No, because your "order" is arbitrary. Why are THOSE standards how you base things in the heirarchy? Why not qualities that almost all females historically have had? Obviously we all have to work together to make it where we are, so why choose those particular ones as "better"?

And obviously...those are hugely over simplified generalizations of people. No single person fits into them.
quote:


Are the women of the world biologically BOUND to serve us?

No. In fact unless you want to rape us, females are the one's who controlled males ability to reproduce.

Do we want to base that as who is "higher" and more likely to serve who in the order of things?

(in reply to Webmaster60)
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RE: The Natural Order of Things - 12/20/2005 6:27:52 AM   
sweetwhisper


Posts: 85
Joined: 11/28/2005
Status: offline 		i believe in a natural order of things, and truly feel that if there were more people who following the "natural order" of things there would be a lot less fighting, divorces, infidelity, etc etc etc... In my eyes, a man should be a man, he should be head of the household, his word is final, he makes the decisions and protects his woman, guides her, disciplines her, etc... Do i feel that everyone has to live this way? no - i know that everyone has their own mentality and view points, i don't try to change this but in my perfect world it would be somewhat of a stepford existance, Men would be providers, they would do manly things, women would be pleasing and submissive, and of course you could have all the chocolate chocolate chip muffins you want and not gain a pound. : )

Edited to add this:
When men and women stop competing against eachother, and women stop trying to emasculate men the way they have been doing for some decades now, then we wouldn't have a lot of the issues going on today - females, by nature, want a strong male, yet they weaken them the first chance they can and get tired of them the moment that they realize how much control they have over them - the men, in turn, become resentful of the women, they resent them for emasculating them and making them all pussified - so there is where the men cheat, the women lose all interest, and divorce rate goes higher and higher. We may be equals as humans, but we are very different when it comes to our gender and we should all embrace those differences rather than fight them. That's just my humble opinion. : )



< Message edited by sweetwhisper -- 12/20/2005 6:34:53 AM >

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RE: The Natural Order of Things - 12/20/2005 6:48:33 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetwhisper
Men would be providers, they would do manly things, women would be pleasing and submissive, and of course you could have all the chocolate chocolate chip muffins you want and not gain a pound.

Frankly I don't know many women on this site who would really enjoy being anything but a submissive wife to a truly physically hard-working person. Because wives of hard working men are also hard workers. This world was not only built out of beauracrats, snobs, and intellectuals sitting in salons all day. It was back breaking work, with no hot water unless you fetched it and the wood and made it all happen for yourself.

I don't really know many women or men who want that sort of life. The type of life you want is an idyllic spoiled life- the kind of life that lets you sit online and type posts (which is a huge luxury).

I'm not saying I don't want that life either, but I don't fool myself into thinking that's what I would have had if I lived "back in the days" when "men were men." No, I'd have been up working hard all day, popping out babies, and given about the same legal status as a cow- NON consensually.

quote:


When men and women stop competing against eachother, and women stop trying to emasculate men the way they have been doing for some decades now, then we wouldn't have a lot of the issues going on today

I agree that we shouldn't be competing or tearing anyone down. But that includes allowing women to do what they want and feel is best for them. Otherwise you're doing the same thing- forcing people to be who they are not.
quote:


- females, by nature, want a strong male

So you don't believe in homosexuality?

Males tend to want strong females too, unless they just want to abuse or take advantage.

quote:

they resent them for emasculating them and making them all pussified

As was said in the other thread- were they really that strong if they let other people make them emasculated?

quote:

so there is where the men cheat,

Men cheat because they can't be true to themselves????

quote:

the women lose all interest, and divorce rate goes higher and higher. We may be equals as humans, but we are very different when it comes to our gender and we should all embrace those differences rather than fight them. That's just my humble opinion. :

We should all embrace who we are, yes. But deciding who we are based on gender just doesn't work out.

< Message edited by LuckyAlbatross -- 12/20/2005 6:51:32 AM >

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RE: The Natural Order of Things - 12/20/2005 7:03:16 AM   
sweetwhisper


Posts: 85
Joined: 11/28/2005
Status: offline 		For someone with as many relationships going on as you claim to have my dear, you sure do find plenty of time to post on this message board! hahaha

you have your views I have mine - it is MY opinion that men should be men and women should be women - yes, this is the old fashioned, traditional, back in the day, view - it is idealistic and no longer realistic, and this is why I say that in "my" perfect world, which we all know doesn't exist, men would be providers, hunters, guide, protect, and females would be soft, and submissive, keeping the home clean, making sure the men were taken care of - this is not too different than the way Master and i actually do live our life - the difference is i work outside of the home and we are definitely not "Leave it to Beaver" - but we are "both" hard working, we both do our chores in the home, i tend to all of His needs and He provides the same for me - i don't try to compete with Him, i don't try to top Him or emasculate Him, i know my place as His woman, i know He is the head of our Home and i follow His lead - it works for us.

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RE: The Natural Order of Things - 12/20/2005 7:05:49 AM   
michaelGA


Posts: 1194
Status: offline 		i don't believe that men are completely destined to rule solely, i believe that there's a balance to the madness we call life. some women are destined to serve men and some men are destined to serve women, this does not make them weak, just makes the reality of life more clear.

there are some women out there that are much superior to men on so many levels.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: The Natural Order of Things - 12/20/2005 7:35:19 AM   
Nosathro


Posts: 1482
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline 		Tal
An interesting question Webmaster. If One looked at nature there appears in many species some order of rule. However, when it comes to Us, there seems to be some agruement. I have come to think, as some others, that we have become to civilized and ignored our own basic nature. So for me, light the camp fires, beat the drums, women dance, and men enjoy the Brotherhood.

I wish You well

Nosathro

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RE: The Natural Order of Things - 12/20/2005 7:49:48 AM   
sweetwhisper


Posts: 85
Joined: 11/28/2005
Status: offline 		Nosathro,

That was beautiful!


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RE: The Natural Order of Things - 12/20/2005 8:00:23 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetwhisper
For someone with as many relationships going on as you claim to have my dear, you sure do find plenty of time to post on this message board! hahaha

Time and priority management are some of my best skills. I don't go into detail much here, but I discuss my relationships a lot on my livejournal if you want information, name is emeraldliz.

I'm just happy happy HAPPY that my boyfriend is coming home today for his break from grad school and that I'm going to get to go to Dark Odyssey with him and another partner together. :)
quote:


i don't try to compete with Him, i don't try to top Him or emasculate Him, i know my place as His woman, i know He is the head of our Home and i follow His lead - it works for us.

And that's awesome.

That isn't what works for everyone. And not following your standards of gender behavior is not what makes men cheat or makes the world a less than ideal place.

(in reply to sweetwhisper)
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RE: The Natural Order of Things - 12/20/2005 8:01:30 AM   
nephandi


Posts: 3930
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		In all due respect i dont see that the number of Emerald`s relationships have to do whit this discussion sweetwhisper, in basic i agree whit you, men should be men, but i see nothing wrong whit a man that is sensible, or a man that deares to show weakness, or love a woman. That they have always had in them, but it have not been aceptable to do so, what i think is wrong is that men should at and behave just like women, for men and momen are different and yes, men do tend to lead. However the men themself have been as mutch part of the pussification as you call it as women is, whole of sosiety is. i want a man that is a men, that is masculine and strong, but also is not afride to love me and show emotion, i do not want Conan the Barbarian, but i might want James Bond.

Nosathro nicely said Sir, though when we are done dancing around the campire, we whit boobs and skirts do like compannionship and bortherhood to.

(in reply to sweetwhisper)
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RE: The Natural Order of Things - 12/20/2005 8:15:16 AM   
justheather


Posts: 1532
Joined: 10/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Webmaster60

The question.. Do you believe in a 'natural order'?

Yes, and I believe that my own beliefs about natural order should be taught in public schools.

quote:


Do you see the Male of the species at the head of such order?

No, I believe that female cats are the head of such order. This will all be very clear to your children once they have been indoctrinated by our schools, at which time they will be instructed to educate you regarding the natural order.

quote:


Are the women of the world biologically BOUND to serve us?


Biologically bound? Is that where you wrap the double helix around my wrists and ankles and make me beg you to transcribe my RNA?
Damn, is it me or is it getting really really hot in here?

_____________________________

I want the scissors to be sharp
And the table perfectly level
When you cut me out of my life
And paste me in that book you always carry.
-Billy Collins

(in reply to Webmaster60)
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