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Am I a Gorean…? - 12/1/2008 4:40:48 PM   
xBullx


Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		Am I a Gorean…?

Often enough we ask the question, “What is a Gorean?” Though seldom enough do we pose the query, “am I a Gorean?”

The following editorial is not explicitly directed at anyone, my intent is not to imply I am right or another is not. I simply hope to inspire personal contemplation within each of us. After reading this if you maintain feelings of content that might imply you are in agreement, but if you are pledge with guilt or angst by my text perhaps some personal reflection is advisable; for as I said this is directed at no one specific.

Lately, I’ve really been pondering this question. And while we have all set a similar question to debate a time or ten thousand I am just speaking out of turn here so read on if you like or click out; it’s immaterial to me if you have nothing to discover for yourself in this thread.

We’ve got 27 books now and the threat of more to come (an oblique attempt at humor). In these twenty-seven books we have been able to foster some sort of concept of what it is to be a Living Gorean. I have at last come to the reality that I am not a Gorean in any other sense than a matter of perception and or philosophical understanding.

I mean I am aware that I was never from a fictional planet, but I am also now ok with the idea that I have no physical right to the heading of Gorean. Sure I can be seen by others as a Gorean and I can even attempt to personally identify with the term philosophically, but all in all I’m just a man, a human from this world and this reality. I see myself as Bull, others might see Bull the Bullshitter, Bull the Iowan, Bull the American and yet others see me to be Bull the Gorean. But I am simply he who I am, nothing more, and nothing less.

So you ask, why the sudden admonition here? Well I’ve been watching the comments that have been made on this board and others lately and have come to the conclusion that not one of us has a completely binding common concept of what it is to be a Living Gorean. 
 
Now pay attention here, I’m not bailing on the march, I still identify with the Gorean philosophical perspective. And if in this another man can see me as a Gorean I’m just peachy with that. But I see limited prosperity in debating the same things over and over as to what is a “Gorean” when in the end the concepts are all to often easily compromised and adapted to fit our own personal agendas. The definition of Gorean is in the books; the entire ideology of what is a Gorean is in the books. It has some room for latitude but not as much as I see in the daily debates and activities of we, the Living Goreans.

I know my hard deportment on the concepts of manly interaction, social standing and male/female interface are uncompromising at times. But the fact is I don’t see the Gorean ideology as principles that should be easily compromised in order to make them effortlessly administered or sociably suitable to the legions of western puritans or to any other idealistic opponent.

I recently asked myself this: Would I do battle over my right to live as a Gorean? Well folks if the answer is to be yes I don’t think this should be a social concept we are all still trying to measure out as to its base foundation. All to often we see men justifying the distortion of social concepts until they are unrecognizable as being uniquely Gorean.

I guess what I’m saying is that it is my opinion that contrary to the age old practice of attempting to decide which principles we should maintain and how we can use them or adapt them to a prejudice and intolerant society; perhaps we should discuss how it is best that we can either live as Gorean men and how to apply the philosophical tenants that the books example or just shut the fuck up and go live our own personal aberrations of the concepts and title ourselves accordingly, but let us not steal the mantle and metal of another man.

I’m no longer simply open to telling someone if they’re right or wrong in the practical application of the philosophies. If you want my opinion as a man on something you are most welcome to ask, and sometimes I’ll even afford the masses this “pleasure” unsolicited, but if you don’t like my philosophical interpretations from this day forth you better decide if you ideology will support your war effort. I am no longer willing to compromise resolute values in order to placate some unmotivated and manipulative existence.

If my proceeding comments seem harsh, understand I was once of the Warriors, the civic defense is my charge and to that I have but one singular comment.


Tor Tu Gor…

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Am I a Gorean…? - 12/1/2008 6:28:16 PM   
Totalmaster4you


Posts: 1359
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline 		Tal Bull,
 
To paraphrase Justice Potter.........I can't define it but I'll know it when I see it.
 
Happy holidays,
T

_____________________________

Sometime ago I decided it was time to change my nic. However I didn't wish to disconnect from my original profile. Since then I've signed Touch your mind (TYM or Tym). Opinions in my posts should be taken as my opinion and my opinion only.

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Am I a Gorean…? - 12/1/2008 7:07:58 PM   
JarlOlaf


Posts: 196
Joined: 5/15/2005
Status: offline 		Damn My Bovine friend, That was well said indeed.

But does this mean I should take off my plastic helmet and my nerf Axe?

Are you Gorean?  Am I Gorean?  Does it make the smallest difference if we wear a label?  Maybe The great Sage Forrest Gump summed it us when he said "Gorean is as Gorean does", which I think translates to "you are what you are", if someone calls it Gorean, so be it, if someone else call it Being a Man, I guess that is right too. 

A label is a small thing really, a fabrication made to try to pigeonhole something as complex as a Human Alpha Male into a tidy package, but one size does not fit all.  While I rarely go around raiding villages in my long boat, I chose the Tovie Persona for on line communications, because, to me it fit best with my likes and lifestyle.  Did I ever try to "Be" a Torvie. Of course not.  Does that make me Non-Gorean?  Who cares? 

I am me, you are You.  I have been proud to call you friend for years now, and believe it or not,

YOU ARE STILL OF THE WARRIORS, because I have never known anyone with more integrity or honor.

Olaf[

< Message edited by JarlOlaf -- 12/1/2008 7:08:20 PM >

_____________________________

I wish my life was a non-stop Hollywood movie show,
A fantasy world of celluloid villains and heroes, Because celluloid heroes never feel any pain
And celluloid heroes never really die.

(in reply to Totalmaster4you)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Am I a Gorean…? - 12/1/2008 8:21:57 PM   
amelliagrace


Posts: 1792
Joined: 8/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

I see myself as Bull, others might see Bull the Bullshitter, Bull the Iowan, Bull the American and yet others see me to be Bull the Gorean. But I am simply he who I am, nothing more, and nothing less.



And in the end, that is all any of us have, all any of us are.  To pretend otherwise is, IMO, to miss out the fullness of what we are, what we have, and the life to be lived.
 
Thought provoking post, Bull, for which I thank you.
 
Regards-
Grace

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Am I a Gorean…? - 12/1/2008 8:25:23 PM   
amelliagrace


Posts: 1792
Joined: 8/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JarlOlaf
Are you Gorean?  Am I Gorean?  Does it make the smallest difference if we wear a label?  Maybe The great Sage Forrest Gump summed it us when he said "Gorean is as Gorean does", which I think translates to "you are what you are", if someone calls it Gorean, so be it, if someone else call it Being a Man, I guess that is right too. 
 

Howdy, Olaf -
 I've been making that statement for quite sometime around these parts.  Perhaps such things carry more weight when uttered by a GFM.  Regardless, it warms the frozen cockles of the icey FW heart to hear the sentiment echoed.

quote:

A label is a small thing really, a fabrication made to try to pigeonhole something as complex as a Human Alpha Male into a tidy package, but one size does not fit all.  While I rarely go around raiding villages in my long boat, I chose the Tovie Persona for on line communications, because, to me it fit best with my likes and lifestyle.  Did I ever try to "Be" a Torvie. Of course not.  Does that make me Non-Gorean?  Who cares? 


Golly gee whiz.... If I wasn't One of the Frozen Veil Fraternity, I'd kiss ya blue for that one.
 
Grace

(in reply to JarlOlaf)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Am I a Gorean…? - 12/2/2008 8:57:31 AM   
MarcusofAr


Posts: 532
Joined: 3/12/2008
Status: offline 		Tal, Bull!

quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

Am I a Gorean…?


You seem pretty fucking Gorean to me.

I know you weren't asking the question. But that's my opinion nonetheless.

My definition of a Gorean is someone who has read and studied John Norman's Gor books and has thereby discovered within those works a series of scientific and philosophical statements with which he agrees, namely those concerning relations between the sexes, how man should interact with his fellow human beings and his environment, and certain matters of human biology and evolutionary science. He then translates those philosophical beliefs into his daily life in an attempt to unreservedly live life according to those precepts.

Being Gorean, in my opinion, is first something you discover, then something you study, then something you understand, then something you choose whether or not to accept. And after that, it is to be found in everything that you do.

It's not a title one adopts like putting on a robe or hanging a sign around one's neck, to be taken off or discarded at will. It's a public declaration that one shares a particular viewpoint.

Once Gorean, you stay Gorean, Bull, until you no longer believe what you believe, or until you no longer act upon that unique understanding.

Goreans tend to be harsh and direct in their interactions with others. Online, that tendency is often curbed, in order that we be better understood by those who don't share our viewpoint. But that doesn't mean we don't admire and appreciate it when someone steps up and lays down the law, bereft of the pretty trappings of polite discourse.

You're good at that, I notice. :)

And just so you know:

You are still of the Warriors. The scarlet, once granted, cannot be taken from you unless you voluntarily abandon it, or unless it be taken from you by the sword.

I wish you well,

_Marcus_



(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Am I a Gorean…? - 12/4/2008 7:33:35 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7329
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Tal Bull,

A very well written post. I often say that I am less concerned with what is or is not Gorean, and more with what it is to be a Man. I have found that by doing just that, I stay closer to the Gorean path. While many here have read and studied the series for many years, it has only been 3 years for me and each time I read one of the books I notice something else to ponder.

I see the books as stories that use metaphor to convey a lesson or message, and sometimes it takes me a while to learn it. I have found the biggest obstacle is to unlearn something that was placed into me during my upbringing and by society. I read something once, I believe it was in the Gorean Voice and written by Marcus, that said that if something did not seem natural to do, then it probably was not.

You do not come across harsh to me, just straight to the point and no bullshit.

Live well my friend,
Orion

P.S. Hope to one day meet, raise a toast, while sitting around a campfire swapping stories.

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Am I a Gorean…? - 12/6/2008 2:34:47 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 6909
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Totalmaster4you

To paraphrase Justice Potter.........I can't define it but I'll know it when I see it.


That was a landmark example of copping out of doing one's job, and an exceptionally good example of the notion that if a straight answer can't be had, then either the wrong question is being asked, or the subject is a construct without any of the substance ascribed to it. Potter showed that the matter was entirely subjective, and through this one statement set one of the poorest precedents in the history of jurisprudence.

To emulate that example in this context would constitute no less a betrayal of what one attempts to describe, than Potter's betrayal of the justice system.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Totalmaster4you)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Am I a Gorean…? - 12/6/2008 2:59:57 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 6909
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: online 		Tal Bull,

Based on the strict definitions provided by yourself and Marcus, I certainly could not claim to be Gorean, nor do I think that I would want to if I have read you both correctly. Mine has been more along the lines of the Forrest Gump definition that Olaf so kindly provided. A destination suits me far less than a direction to travel in, so if the explorers are to settle at the patch of fertile ground they set out to find, rather than to keep exploring, I will just have to settle for a place to bring back maps and tales of far-off lands. I think I see a nice valley up ahead, you see, and beyond that- who knows?

I am certainly fine with that.

We all set our own goals to pursue, and I'm sure there will still be productive exchanges to be had as a visiting stranger.

Ta Sardar Gor

Health,
al-Aswad.

< Message edited by Aswad -- 12/6/2008 3:00:41 AM >

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Am I a Gorean…? - 12/6/2008 3:49:37 AM   
MarcusofAr


Posts: 532
Joined: 3/12/2008
Status: offline 		Tal, Aswad!

Most with whom I habitually interact in a strictly-Gorean context, and all whom I consider to be knowledgeable regarding matters Gorean, agree upon one thing:

We get the word "Gorean" from John Norman's book series.

From that base acknowledgement comes all the rest of it.

To be theoretically, philosophically, or practically "Gorean" in any sense of the word, then, one must first understand what it means and where it comes from. That then creates two potential definitions for the term "Gorean." They are:

1) The fictional inhabitant of a fictional planet on the other side of the sun.

2) One who resembles such an inhabitant, in some pertinent way, were that inhabitant transplanted to Earth.

One cannot be #1, as listed above. It is an impossibility.

One CAN be #2, the second option.

There are two complementary modes of action one can take in order to be the second option given above. One can:

A) Emulate fictional behaviors which exist on another planet and attempt to reenact them upon Earth.

B) Understand the philosophical mindset which gives rise to those otherworldly behaves and translate THAT into one's life to the best of one's ability.

Those who I consider "Gorean" tend to experiment with or enact the first option (A) to some extent, while seriously engaging themselves in the pursuit of the second option (B).

Now, for one to be completely "unGorean," it is my opinion that one must engage in no combination of the above two behaviors.

But primary to one considering oneself "Gorean," again in my opinion, is that one understand what John Norman is saying in those books, contrast and compare it to what else one has determined to be true in one's life through study and observation, and discover that one agrees with it.

If you have, and if you don't, then fine. You simply don't. No reason for anyone to get bent out of shape over it.

Nor do I see the wisdom of anyone making a big stink about whether or not someone has the right to call anyone Gorean, or whatever. That's rather silly. And downright dumb.

If one doesn't agree with Norman, then-- big deal. I would advise that individual to move on with his or her life, and stop trying to squeeze a square peg into a round hole. The BDSM subculture is quite accepting and extremely varied, plus it makes generous allowances for those who are interested in Gorean-style interactions of their own invention, outside of the circle of self-declared Goreans.

If you DO agree with Norman, and are serious about applying some of his insights to the living of your own life, then you are on a Gorean path.

If not, you aren't.

I can't crawl inside anyone's head and tell them what to believe or what not to believe, or determine whether or not they are serious about any of it. No one can.

That is for people to do for themselves. Though I hope they would be honest about it, both with themselves and in their interactions with others.

Personally, I find the definitions given above to be completely reasonable and rather glaringly obvious.

If someone meets the above requirements, yet still insists they aren't Gorean, I might find that puzzling, certainly.

Then again-- if someone says they are not Gorean, then who am I to argue?

I wish you well on whatever path you choose,

_Marcus_


(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Am I a Gorean…? - 12/6/2008 5:08:54 PM   
KarRagnon


Posts: 48
Joined: 10/8/2006
Status: offline 		HOLY BOSK SHIT BULLMAN!

                                                 As always, you never fail to inspire! I've never given a shit what title you or any other Man has or has had. I met you face to face and Man to Man. I measured your worth as a Man just as you measured Mine. Seems to Me that something meshed. If not I'm sure both of us would have made it perfectly plain to one another what was on our minds.  ONCE A WARRIOR.........ALWAYS A WARRIOR!     We live our lives based on what feels right to us and that is that. Your way may not entirely be My way nor Mine yours, but we both find a bond based on many of our beliefs regardless of the titles.

                                                                                                                                                             Live well Brother

_____________________________

"One does not know, truly, what it is to stand, until one has fallen. Once one has fallen, then one knows, you see, what it is to stand"

Page 340 - Beasts of Gor

(in reply to MarcusofAr)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Am I a Gorean…? - 12/6/2008 6:52:58 PM   
Totalmaster4you


Posts: 1359
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline 		Aswad,
 
First I'd suggest you turn around and see if you can locate your sense of humor.
 
Secondly the comment as jurisprudence is appalling as you said however considering the number of times threads have been started to try to define what is a Gorean (beyond the basic character, integrity, responsibility, etc.) as lived on Earth, consensus was never reached which leads directly to *I know one when I see one* or if you prefer *get to know one*.
 
T

_____________________________

Sometime ago I decided it was time to change my nic. However I didn't wish to disconnect from my original profile. Since then I've signed Touch your mind (TYM or Tym). Opinions in my posts should be taken as my opinion and my opinion only.

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Am I a Gorean…? - 12/11/2008 2:51:43 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 6909
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: online 		Tal Marcus,

It might seem we are roughly in agreement; for clarity and commentary:

This, I think, is one of those places where it is, perhaps, sad that Norman used the Initiate caste more as a criticism of Earth religion, rather than examining what the original Priest-King caste was about, and envisaging what it might be. Certain people are born with a trait that is occasionally acquired by those who are not born to it, namely the dissociation of what we might liken to Plato's ideal forms, from the hierarchy of their incarnations, presentations and instances. It is intrinsic to a mind that has a certain series of variations in the dopaminergic system, but plasticity makes it acquirable to others whose circumstances present them with a subconscious choice between that mental remodelling and cognitive dissonance. The net result tends to be a unique way of arranging and viewing patterns and combinations thereof, an affinity for abstract thought, and usually above-average intelligence (that is certainly required to get the benefits). One might say abstract thought is a more natural mode for such people, while concrete thought is more natural to the remainder of the population. And, in my experience, it is more common for such people to take a bird's eye view, or at least fully grok it at some point, which is what I think should be the foundation of any actual Initiate caste; a complement that rounds out the whole.

As, in my own and many others' assessment, such a person, I am clearly less concerned with Norman and his books, than the ideas he put forth. And those ideas, in turn, are secondary to the larger pattern within which they fit. Insofar as I find ideas of substance in his books, they are generally ones I agree with, although some appear counterfactual in my experience, and others are contingent on assumptions that are pragmatic but fall short of what I think they might be. I would integrate these ideas in my life, if I hadn't already done so from arriving at them via a different route, not because they are Gorean, but because they suit me. As far as I can tell from the books, such would seem to be a path a Gorean might take, and Norman has clearly emphasized his hopes that the books would inspire people to go beyond books and set formulæ in their lives.

It has never been very significant to me whether or not I am considered Gorean. Like anyone seeking to live life fully, honestly and with integrity, I am a moving target. At present, it seems that the term does a pretty good job of conveying- in one word- to those who know its meaning, just what general ballpark I am in. Certainly, any distance doesn't seem greater than the internal variation between the cultures presented, at least to me. But as someone not natively thinking in terms of words, labels and symbols, but rather in the arrangement of abstract patterns, concepts and ideas, I couldn't claim to be particularly attached to the label or the books.

Insofar as the size and shape of an instrument consisting of a metal digging implement with a pole for leverage is to be called a shovel, I think it would be accurate to call me a Gorean. When said implement needs to be of a particular brand, from a particular store, or otherwise be a specific kind of shovel in order to be called one, it would not be accurate to call me one. My impression of the original post, and your follow-up, was the latter, which is where my reply originated from. If that was correctly interpreted on my part, it stands; else, it does not. I will be what I am, regardless of what I am called. And I have found kinship and people I should like to number among my friends in this place; I do not think it matters more to most of them than it does to me whether I identify- or am identified- with a given label or not.

Nobody is getting bent out of shape over it, in any case, methinks.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to MarcusofAr)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Am I a Gorean…? - 12/11/2008 3:06:56 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 6909
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: online 		I have a sense of humor, TYM.

It just doesn't resemble Earth humor all that closely.

For the most part, I let the inner child be my sense of humor: it's playful, irreverent and generally innocent in a precise sense of the word. And, in general, I don't let the inner child touch my keyboard when I am discussing adult matters, save for the occasional, harmless mischief. Nor do I chase it out to play in the sandbox when it prefers to stay inside. As for turning around to find it, the only thing behind me is a perpetual child; the monster cat known as Maud (cf. Maud of Wales, first queen of Norway). She doesn't want to play right now, either, being snuggled up in a little donut shape with her front paw and tail wrapped around her head, soundly asleep and probably dreaming of a warmer time of year when beating up crows and bringing home lemming babies is more viable entertainment than playing with my hairbands or earbuds.

There's a sprinkling of humor in there, somewhere, in case it's not obvious.

And there was indeed something that came close to a consensus at one point: both me and Trevelyan offered two takes on it that mostly differed in their degree of abstraction, which was lauded by Cheryl. If two people of such opposing takes on a subject as me and Trevelyan are able to find each others descriptions and criterion viable, then that is as close as anyone seems to have gotten on any subject here, apart from the question of homosexuality (the current record in stated agreements). So, clearly, there is something more substantial to the concept of being Gorean than there is to justice Potter's misstep.

That said, when I see one, I'm not concerned with whether it's Gorean.

I'm concerned with whether it's palatable to me.

Is that Gorean?

Health,
al-Aswad.

< Message edited by Aswad -- 12/11/2008 3:07:38 AM >

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Totalmaster4you)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Am I a Gorean…? - 12/11/2008 9:30:16 AM   
Totalmaster4you


Posts: 1359
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline 		Aswad,

"That said, when I see one, I'm not concerned with whether it's Gorean.

I'm concerned with whether it's palatable to me.

Is that Gorean? "

Maybe. 

T

_____________________________

Sometime ago I decided it was time to change my nic. However I didn't wish to disconnect from my original profile. Since then I've signed Touch your mind (TYM or Tym). Opinions in my posts should be taken as my opinion and my opinion only.

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 15
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