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Biology, Technology, Evolution, and Gor - 12/9/2008 2:03:14 PM

ygraine

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Hello folks,
In preperation for a class, I have been reading a lot about the state of human evolution. I came across this article: http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/news/080101_recenthumanevo about how quickly humans are evolving and/or adapting. The article links some of the rapid adaptation to technology.
In John Norman's fictional world, technology is purposefully limited, but here on earth we have no such limits. The circle of a man's steel can be easily compromised, even by a woman.
As I was reading, I was thinking of a couple of questions: one adaptive, one evolutionary. First of all, because of technology, have we reduced the value of the strength of men? Second, are we evolving fast enough in parallel with technological advances that some of the biological hardwiring that forms the natural order could become defunct and get switched off like "junk genes" ?
I know my first question comes up from time to time, but recent studies epigenetic switches as part of the process of evolution is a fairly new scientific discovery. I am reading more, I hope only for some discussion.
Thanks
Cathy

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RE: Biology, Technology, Evolution, and Gor - 12/9/2008 4:54:28 PM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ygraine
First of all, because of technology, have we reduced the value of the strength of men? Second, are we evolving fast enough in parallel with technological advances that some of the biological hardwiring that forms the natural order could become defunct and get switched off like "junk genes" ?

Strength still is important. (I wish I had some.)

The human species is evolving, but it has little to do with modern technology. Our brains are plastic; they adapt to the environment that they find themselves in. Some people will lean towards technology or science, for others it is not important at all.

There are no junk genes. Genes from one parent may be switched off (by methylation if I recall correctly), only to be switched on again in the next generation.

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RE: Biology, Technology, Evolution, and Gor - 12/9/2008 5:29:09 PM

ygraine

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Hi Rule,
"Junk DNA" may never be switched back on, or may have another non-protein coding function altogether that is not exactly understood right now. The understanding of the Human Genome is moving very fast, however, and I am sure they will understand soon what the purpose of those non-coding genes are. They may have an evolutionary link.
I probably should not have used the term "junk", what I meant was genes that are turned off or are not coding, for whatever reason.
I disagree with your statement about humans not evolving in the face of technology. I firmly believe as we become more sophisticated in our knowledge about how we are engineered (our genetics, our systems) we will even be able to manipulate evolution. It is only because of extremely sophisticated technology that we are able to begin to understand the breadth of information found in human genes. Technology and medicine can step up the pace of evolution by a significant degree. Adaptation is often the precursor to evolution.

Thank you for contributing to this dicussion.
Cathy

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RE: Biology, Technology, Evolution, and Gor - 12/9/2008 6:09:03 PM

amelliagrace

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Interesting thread, Ygraine.

There is far more we don't know, than that we do know. While I don't think Norman was wrong, he wasn't completely correct, it seems to me thusfar, simply because it appears (I have to qualify such things, seeing as how I haven't read all the books yet) that way to me at this point. I say that based upon the subject you've started this thread about. There is always, IMO, more truth to be grasped than any individual can sieze hold of in a lifetime.

I find the subject you've raised fascinating, from an intellectual and scientific vantagepoint. All the science particulars too intricate for me to follow aside, I don't know anyone who stops and things about it for a while who doesn't accept that humanity does change over time - Nor does anyone I know with a functioning brain deny that technology has an impact on that.

So, what is a Gorean to do? Simply, what he's always done, I'd think, IF that was follow the dictates of his own nature within the limits of steel and good sense. If following your nature leads to you being a candidate for the Darwin Awards, then your genetic line being eliminated is probably a good thing.....but I digress.

A shift in human eveloution wherein the biological mandates and general trends of male and female nature which leads to a less male centric society shouldn't, IMO, affect Goreans at all. Horne: How so?

If you hold such things as integrity, living true to your own nature, loyalty, honesty, strength (and no, for the zillionth time, 'strength" is a synonym for "brawn"), responcibility and freedom to be of paramount importance, then continuing to do so in a shifting evolutionary landscape isn't that big of a deal.

If what you hold is a penis centric philosophy where anatomy takes precedence, then you are shit out of luck if you live a few hundred years.

There will always be alphas and betas. There will likely always be men and women. Is who's on top in any given relationship a make it or break it for Gorean philosophy? I honestly don't think so.

If men - and women - can be true to themselves......and not get in a snit over OTHERS living accoring to their own natures........there is no big problem for Goreans. If male centric takes precedence over living true to nature, however, then Goreans are destined for heartache and disappointment as the generations roll by.

Strength will always be important. As technology advances and human nature gradually changes, however, some types of strength will become increasingly important. Namely, strength of will, strength of resolve, strength of conviction, strength of character. Each of those is - again IMO - an integral part of being able to compel, inspire, motivate, and sometimes, even enslave.

Regards-
Grace

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RE: Biology, Technology, Evolution, and Gor - 12/10/2008 12:45:10 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ygraine
"Junk DNA"

There is a difference between junk genes and junk DNA.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ygraine
"Junk DNA"may never be switched back on, or may have another non-protein coding function altogether that is not exactly understood right now.

Indeed. About one year ago I read about tiny pieces of DNA (I have forgotten the name), occurring in large numbers in the genome, that previously were thought to be without function, but that proved to code for RNA with regulatory functions, inactivating specific genes, if I recall correctly. Other non-used DNA like the introns undoubtedly serve an evolutionary function, enabling exons to be swapped between genes and alleles.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ygraine
I probably should not have used the term "junk"

At least not as qualifier of genes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ygraine
I disagree with your statement about humans not evolving in the face of technology.

Well, I am sure that there is evolutionary pressure to not put one's fingers into an electrical outlet and to not cross a street with heavy traffic with one's eyes closed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ygraine
I firmly believe as we become more sophisticated in our knowledge about how we are engineered (our genetics, our systems) we will even be able to manipulate evolution. It is only because of extremely sophisticated technology that we are able to begin to understand the breadth of information found in human genes. Technology and medicine can step up the pace of evolution by a significant degree.

Nonsense. There are six billion people evolving at the moment. No technology can compete with that. And why bother? It has already been established that the human species is evolving at an incredible rate. According to the article you referred to there are various and many advantageous mutations in the genomes of people on different continents. By interbreeding such advantageous mutations will be shared in say eighty generations, only about two thousand years.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ygraine
Adaptation is often the precursor to evolution.

Lamarckism?

< Message edited by Rule -- 12/10/2008 12:51:50 AM >

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RE: Biology, Technology, Evolution, and Gor - 12/11/2008 1:21:24 AM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ygraine

First of all, because of technology, have we reduced the value of the strength of men?

Strength, no. Physical prowess, somewhat. It still has its uses (you'd be surprised at how well some technology will respond to adequate application of brute force, cursing and threats of prompt disassembly with a questionable prospect of ever being reassembled), and it is valuable as a conserved trait, in case of scenarios where technology is unavailable or fails. Also, most of the world does not have our western level of technology.

quote:

Second, are we evolving fast enough in parallel with technological advances that some of the biological hardwiring that forms the natural order could become defunct and get switched off like "junk genes" ?

If you pay close attention, most of our changes are related to habits, skills and neocortical activity, with essential human nature remaining reasonably unchanged, save that we now retain a greater diversity. The epigenome does control some aspects, many of which may change, such as the balance between the sexes in terms of aggression, libido and drive. However, it takes a long time to change the base genome to an appreciable extent, and culture does not appear to have a very effective pruning process. Consider senescence, for example. Most people argue that it is a necessary part of being human, and their argumentation reveals that they oppose the notion that humanity is a moving target. In essence, they want to stand still. Not surprising, with many of our negatively connoted ideas being intrinsically tied to familiarity vs novelty, and novelty-seeking being strongly predictive for getting a psychiatric label assigned and the offending neural complexes medicated into oblivion during formative years.

Just some thoughts.

Health,
al-Aswad.

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