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RE: what's a slave to do? - 1/1/2006 9:15:36 AM

MasterPetruchio

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Greetings

Particularly to Petruchio of Orlando who is a different person. It was not my intention to steal your nick, I have been using Master Petruchio for years.

Katharina, my slave, is young enough to be my daughter so in the end it likely that I will leave her on her own. Absolute authority implies absolute responsibilty and I am resonsible for her well being now and beyond my death. If she stays loyal to me she deserves no less.

On Gor a slave is a slave 24/7 and that is the end of it. once enslaved she ceases to have an identity. On Earth we have to be practical. Katharina has a vanilla existence in which she has her own friends and lives her own life. She works and has her own money, makes her own decisions.

When we meet her face lights up at the sight of mine, when we are alone she kneels naked at my feet and serves my pleasure. I am content with this arrangement. I want to enrich her life, to make her a more interesting and happy person. Maybe one day she will no longer need to be my slave. I will be sad if this happens, but if you love some one set them free. If they come back to you they are always yours. If they do not they never were.

As long as there is loyalty and turst between us we are Master and slave.

Master Petruchio

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RE: what's a slave to do? - 1/1/2006 3:51:09 PM

Petruchio

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That's wonderfully worded, MasterP and welcome.

(You know, we could have identity issues if Petruchio di Verona shows up!)

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RE: what's a slave to do? - 1/1/2006 8:39:10 PM

Raphael

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Leonidas' answer was very well put and to the point. I do have a little to add.

Your question is one of ethics. It has long been recognised by ethicists that ethical rules which are appropriate and necessary in the vast majority of situations are not necessarily appropriate or workable in what are called 'life-boat scenarios.' These scenarios are often presented as hypotheticals to try and discredit normal ethical rules, but in fact they are generally rather far-fetched and unlikely to happen.

As an example, most people consider stealing unethical. But if we posit that you have two starving children, and no possible way to keep them alive except to steal food, very few people are seriously going to hold to the line that you shouldn't steal.

Of course, the scenario is a bit far fetched - even if you have the starving children and no money, it's extremely unlikely there is TRULY no other way to feed them than to steal. Unless, of course, you've spent some time manœuvering yourself into that situation by avoiding all your other chances until it's too late...

So does this mean we throw out the rule against stealing? No. It means we recognise that normal ethical rules don't always apply in genuine life-boat situations.

As I read your post, you're in large part asking about life-boat situations here. And yes, the rules are different there. And unfortunately, people being what we are, there are those that would try to use that as a wedge to do away with the rules in other situations. When your master decides you need a harder whipping than you want to endure, or tells you to clean the toilet even though you'd prefer to skip that and get straight to the slave-rape (can't he just hire a maid?) those are not life-boat situations.

I think at least one of your scenarios is entirely different, as well. A 'master' who turns out to have deceived you, in order to enslave you, and is not who and what he represented himself as, is not necessarily a life-boat scenario (although it might become one, if he gets away with it!) The normal rules apply fine there, and they say that commitments made on the basis of fraud are null and void - as if they were never made. So that's a pretty straight-forward ethical question, with a pretty normal and straight-forward answer. But it's also similar in that those with weak ethical principles often try to use it as a dodge when it really doesn't apply...

In the end, I'm not too worried, personally, about a girl claiming one of these exceptions when it's not true - as long as she simply uses it to justify leaving. If she does that, it reveals, in my mind, a defect which made her ultimately unacceptable to me in any case, and I would simply be happy to have discovered it sooner than later.

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RE: what's a slave to do? - 1/2/2006 4:23:59 AM

sunshine333

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Joined: 8/16/2005
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wow! thank you all for such insightful answers.

i've learned that a slave has the right to self preservation and that there are no absolutes as far as rules of ethics.

again ... not something i'm struggling with at the moment. but this has come up for me in the past and i know i've made both right and wrong decisions. i have a strong sense of ethics and when i do something that goes blatantly against that it effects me deeply and the least i can do is learn from it. so ... the posts here have all helped.

i think for me it's about finding balance. knowing when to endure ... when to beg release ... and when to run.

thank you all again .. so very much.

humbly,
sunshine

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RE: what's a slave to do? - 1/2/2006 5:24:22 AM

fyreredsub

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quote:

knowing when to endure, beg release or run

sometimes a girl just has to go with her gut

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RE: what's a slave to do? - 1/2/2006 6:30:28 AM

plantlady64

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Joined: 5/19/2005
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Hello All,
For me the answer would go back to the slave's contract.
In my opinion there should always be a contract negotiated between a free slave when she willingly gives herself and her will to her Master. Oral or written. This way they know if their expectations match.
If her Master is honoring the contract and keeping her well being at heart she in my opinion would be obligated to stay. If he's breeched the contract she'd be free to leave with honor.
None of us should have to stay with another person under their will if our basic needs to be healthy are not met.
This sometime does lead to a slave breaking her contract when emotionally not able to stay.
Then I'd say sometimes the circumstances merit it, and sometimes not. I can't decide that for anyone other than myself.
Sincerely,
sub suzanne

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RE: what's a slave to do? - 1/2/2006 10:12:54 AM

Petruchio

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Yup, suzanne.

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RE: what's a slave to do? - 1/2/2006 2:49:56 PM

nephandi

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From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
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When i was a girl of 16 i met my fiancee online, we negotiated being boyfrind and girlfrind as none of us wanted to go hunting and have relationship after relationship, we have a werry few conditions that can let the contract be null and void, but otherwise is obligated to stay together. It seam for many a strage way to get together, and this was when we was vanilla exept for a bit of bedroom fun

yet it have worked for us, like an aranged marriage we aranged ourself.

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RE: what's a slave to do? - 1/2/2006 10:22:03 PM

Petruchio

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quote:

ORIGINAL: nephandi

When i was a girl of 16 i met my fiancee online, we negotiated being boyfrind and girlfrind as none of us wanted to go hunting and have relationship after relationship, we have a werry few conditions that can let the contract be null and void, but otherwise is obligated to stay together. It seam for many a strage way to get together, and this was when we was vanilla exept for a bit of bedroom fun yet it have worked for us, like an aranged marriage we aranged ourself.

Wow, nephandi.

Yes, it's unusual, but it's also one of the neatest ideas I've heard! And romantic, at least to an outsider. Did you then 'layer on' (pardon the poor grammar) BDSM at a later time?

I'm difficult to impress, but you succeeded.

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RE: what's a slave to do? - 2/6/2006 3:01:59 AM

mons

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when a slave has no right and correct me if i am wrong ,but does she have not right to read what she wants? i am a reader of all things i could not stand that one fact so when it is said she has not rights does this mean in all things. if she wanted to go to the store does she need to ask? if she wanted to watch something that her master says no to does she have to give in. is she allowed to speak to another non gorean male or smiel at another who is non gorean?what type of clothes can she wear, is she allowed to waer something sexy low cut. or does she wear long skirts and blouse that are buttonup this is not a silly a question it is something that i wanted to ask. most important does she own her own bank account. when she works does she have to give her money to her master at all time and do you give her money that she must spend when you say so.

one more question i know a female slave she has her collars welded to her neck also one her wrist and ankles do anyone of the gorean ,master ever do this

wishing all well

mons

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RE: what's a slave to do? - 2/6/2006 3:39:18 AM

edana

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oops

< Message edited by edana -- 2/6/2006 3:40:02 AM >

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RE: what's a slave to do? - 2/6/2006 3:42:33 AM

Leonidas

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quote:

i think i view ownership as very absolute. once a girl is owned .. then she loses all rights ... even the right to protect herself. whish is probably why i've never begged for or accepted a collar of complete ownership. but, your statement implies, to me, that she does, in fact, retain at least this one right ... which is self preservation. please correct me if i'm wrong, though.

Ok, I'll correct you. When it comes to Gorean slavery anyway, when you submit yourself, you do relinquish all rights, and become a rightless slave. I didn't mean by what I wrote that a slave retains any rights, what I meant (and what I think I said) is that she is not bound by honor to remain a slave. She has no moral obligation not to run away. It's her master's dominance over her that keeps her a slave, not her own commitment to remain so. So, if she can escape her enslavement, it is because her master's dominance was not sufficiently strong to keep her a slave, and she is not "wrong" to do so. If she does escape, she will escape into a society that does not recognize the institution of slavery, and so she will be safe from being forcibly returned to her master.

I went one step further and said that if a slave can break her bonds and run away, she probably should. It could be that she can because, as you said, her interest in self-preservation becomes stronger than her need to serve a man who may ultimately kill her. It may also be that he simply was not able to master her and so her bonds to him are weak or non-existant, in which case it doesn't have to be something as strong as self-preservation that leads her to run off. Hell, it could be her desire for ice-cream, or anything else that she is denied as a slave. In both cases, she can run, and probably should run.

You are right to be wary of begging to be a slave. It's dangerous. Once enslaved, the opposite of the above may happen to you. You may become so strongly enslaved that you cannot run away, even though any objective outsider might think that you should. It is for this reason that a girl should think long and hard before submitting to the collar, and know the man to whom she would submit as well as she possibly can. It does not remove the danger, but it might mitigate the risk some.

quote:

and just for clarification ... are you saying that she should literally run away? or should she first try to beg for release? and if she begs ... at what point would she stop accepting his answer of "no" and simply resign concent?

Try not to let the door hit you in the ass on your way out. If you find yourself begging release, it is either because you think you have some moral obligation to remain a slave until he releases you (you don't), or it is because you are trying to use the threat of running away to change his behavior. In the former case, you are obviously unmastered. In the latter case, you are actualy trying to master him. If you find that you can run, just run.

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 2/6/2006 3:55:03 AM >

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