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what's a slave to do?


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what's a slave to do? - 12/29/2005 5:00:08 PM   
sunshine333


Posts: 203
Joined: 8/16/2005
Status: offline 		there is a thread on the general board about ownership and what it means. some feel that once a slave is owned that she has no rights. others feel that she still retains basic human rights and is ultimately responsible for her wellbeing.

i am curious how (earth) goreans feel about this ... specifically ... what should an "owned" slave do when her Owner no longer possesses the qualities that made him a suitable Owner to begin with? for example ... what if he develops a mental illness ?... or, what if he commits a heinous crime? ... or, what if he becomes abusive? ... or, what if, after accepting his collar she realizes that he is not the man she thought he was? ... etc.

should a slave beg release ... and accept no for an answer? should she resign consent and run for the hills? should she accept her fate and stay with and continue to serve her "unfit" Owner until death due they part or he initiates the release of her?

humbly,
sunshine
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: what's a slave to do? - 12/29/2005 5:08:56 PM   
fastlane


Posts: 2159
Joined: 5/26/2005
Status: offline 		Yes, No and Maybe.
That's the problem of being Gor...too many people, too many explanations.
Find the truth in your heart and your instincts.

Good luck, Kevin

_____________________________

Just because it hurts, doesn't necessarily make it a bad thing.

(in reply to sunshine333)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: what's a slave to do? - 12/29/2005 5:13:40 PM   
sunshine333


Posts: 203
Joined: 8/16/2005
Status: offline 		oh ... just to be clear ... i'm not in this predicament ... it's just a curiosity for me.

humbly,
sunshine

(in reply to fastlane)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: what's a slave to do? - 12/29/2005 5:26:06 PM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

i am curious how (earth) goreans feel about this ... specifically ... what should an "owned" slave do when her Owner no longer possesses the qualities that made him a suitable Owner to begin with? for example ... what if he develops a mental illness ?... or, what if he commits a heinous crime? ... or, what if he becomes abusive? ... or, what if, after accepting his collar she realizes that he is not the man she thought he was? ... etc.


She should run if she can, and be thankful that she lives in a world where the law won't aid her master in getting her back. She won't always be able to run, and even if she does run, she won't always be able to stay away. The mental and emotional ties that keep a girl enslaved to a man are often much stronger and harder to break than rope or chain, and the loyalty of a slave girl to her master might defy all logic from the point of view of an outsider. If she can run away, these bonds are not so strong, and are probably just as well broken. A slave is not honor bound to remain a slave. It is up to her master to enslave her, and keep her a slave. If he doesn't, or can't, her running off should come as no suprise, and he has nobody to blame but himself.

All of that said, a girl who demonstrates a pattern of running off from a series of masters will, it goes without saying, gain a reputation that might preclude her being taken seriously when she comes once again begging to be a slave.

_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to sunshine333)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: what's a slave to do? - 12/29/2005 5:41:24 PM   
Petruchio


Posts: 1614
Joined: 2/6/2005
Status: offline
quote:

what should an "owned" slave do when her Owner no longer possesses the qualities that made him a suitable Owner to begin with?

This starts off as a good guestion.

quote:

what if he develops a mental illness?

Have you learned nothing in your servitude? Would a caring master abandon you if you became sick? Feel your shame and beg forgiveness.

quote:

what if he commits a heinous crime?

That's a better question. Masters should have a sense of honor. If they fail in this, then they need to be retrained. Some might debate this, but I believe it is not only required of a caring master to help his slave grow, but it is also incumbent upon a servant to help her master in finding light.

quote:

what if he becomes abusive?

You are not required to end up like O. A man admires a strong slave, not a weak one.

quote:

what if, after accepting his collar she realizes that he is not the man she thought he was?

Obviously from previous answers, you realize this is not a question with a simple reply. If he has been kind and caring, you owe to him in time of his need or even to help him recover and grow. However, a true master is not abusive, so if you find you have to leave for your own safety, then he is an imposter to the cause, and not a master.

(in reply to sunshine333)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: what's a slave to do? - 12/30/2005 1:43:47 AM   
nephandi


Posts: 3930
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		What mental ilness are we talking aboute here? Pepole say mental ilness and lump pepole whit phobias together whit Hanibal Lector, there are many of us whit mental ilness, i have depression and angiety in adition to aspergers syndrome, that would never harm anyone, mental ilness is not a horrible thing usualy, but pepole fear us becouse when they think of mental ilness Hanibal Lector and the Chainsaw massacere comes to mind, and while there are crasy killers, most pepole whit mental ilness are not dangerous and are quite normal pepole, trust me, i know, i have mental ilness.

(in reply to Petruchio)
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RE: what's a slave to do? - 12/30/2005 2:54:40 AM   
sunshine333


Posts: 203
Joined: 8/16/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Have you learned nothing in your servitude? Would a caring master abandon you if you became sick? Feel your shame and beg forgiveness.


i feel no shame in asking that question.

when owned, a slave becomes her owner's dependent ...much like a child. of course, she serves more purposes than a child and is expected to behave as an adult ... however, she is only property and her life and wellbeing become dependent on his in many ways.

so what happens if he develops ... let's say ... schizophrenia, for example. would he be able to care for his property as well as if he were healthy? i think not. should the slave help him and not abandon him (as a person) ... of course. that's a given. but should she beg to be released of her commitment to him as a slave being that he is unable to be her Master? the question is ... does she have this right, as owned property, to protect her own well being?

i'm not talking about rough times. a slave that can't tough it through rough times is not worthy of her title. i'm talking about something more extreme ... and asking what people's opinions are of the slave's rights.

in a perfect world, an Owner would make provisions for his property if and when the time came when he could no longer care for her in the capacity that she needs. for example ... i knew a girl who's Master was terminally ill. they both upheld their commitments to each other til the very end. and, while he was still capable, he found a job for her and made sure she would be cared for when he was gone. but not all things turn out like that. so there are times when a slave has to make a decision for herself. and what i'd like to know is ... does she have rights?

humbly,
sunshine

(in reply to Petruchio)
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RE: what's a slave to do? - 12/30/2005 3:10:51 AM   
sunshine333


Posts: 203
Joined: 8/16/2005
Status: offline
quote:

A slave is not honor bound to remain a slave.


thank you Master Leonidas.

i struggle with that concept. i have been in long term M/s relationships and have worn collars before. however, i have never been completely owned. the idea scares me as much as it entices me. i think i view ownership as very absolute. once a girl is owned .. then she loses all rights ... even the right to protect herself. whish is probably why i've never begged for or accepted a collar of complete ownership. but, your statement implies, to me, that she does, in fact, retain at least this one right ... which is self preservation. please correct me if i'm wrong, though.

quote:

She should run if she can


and just for clarification ... are you saying that she should literally run away? or should she first try to beg for release? and if she begs ... at what point would she stop accepting his answer of "no" and simply resign concent?

humbly,
sunshine

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: what's a slave to do? - 12/30/2005 3:15:12 AM   
sunshine333


Posts: 203
Joined: 8/16/2005
Status: offline
quote:

What mental ilness are we talking aboute here?


nephandi ... i am talking about any kind of mental illness that strips him of his capabilities of effectively being her Master. and, as i mentioned in a post above, i'm not refering to "hard times" but rather something that is more chronic without an end in sight.

and, as a side note ... my belief is that dealing with a slave with disorders is very different than dealing with an Owner with disorders as each have a different level of responsibility to one another.

humbly,
sunshine

(in reply to nephandi)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: what's a slave to do? - 12/30/2005 3:30:59 AM   
nephandi


Posts: 3930
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		Angsiety and depression is often cronic, though it comes and go, i just want to clearify here becouse mental disorders are not all the same, it is just as a physical ilness can be anything from a cold to cancer, mental problems can be mild or serious, some will make a person unable to take care of themself, while others are only anoyances.

And yes if he was a treath to your life, run for the hills, but if he was simply no longer the stouth and strong Master, i at least would not abandon him. One may be slave or one may be Master but we are all human beings and we have human needs, and one of them is companionship, if you would abandon a Master in rough times, if he grew ill, or could no longer lord over you,m what good is your slavery? Even if he had become reidden his hideaous desise and lay in bed a weak man, you would still be his property, though his needs would have changed from plessure slut and hosekeeper to nurse and fried, you have no less obligation to be by his side.

If he treathes your life or the life of your children or so run, if you are unhappy beg his relese, if you dont get it stay. We all dream of a Master like in the Gorean books, strong, independant and interesting that will take us hard and make marvelous sex whit us, just like we all want the tall dark stanger, fantasy is nice, but your dedication to slavery will show when this fantasy no longe aply.

If it is submission you want, be a submissive, do not search further, i have n ot acepted my Dom`s offer of slavery yet, becouse it inply many things. So look at yourself, coud you serve just as happily as nurse as plessure girl? if yes then go for it, if not then stay submissive.

(in reply to sunshine333)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: what's a slave to do? - 12/30/2005 5:48:09 AM   
fyreredsub


Posts: 3403
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline 		not trying to answer for anyone here....

a girl can run away (physically) but her chains may still keep her bound (mentally) is they way it is in my understanding.

if a Master has truly enslaved a girl ..she will never be free


quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshine333

quote:

A slave is not honor bound to remain a slave.


thank you Master Leonidas.

i struggle with that concept. i have been in long term M/s relationships and have worn collars before. however, i have never been completely owned. the idea scares me as much as it entices me. i think i view ownership as very absolute. once a girl is owned .. then she loses all rights ... even the right to protect herself. whish is probably why i've never begged for or accepted a collar of complete ownership. but, your statement implies, to me, that she does, in fact, retain at least this one right ... which is self preservation. please correct me if i'm wrong, though.

quote:

She should run if she can


and just for clarification ... are you saying that she should literally run away? or should she first try to beg for release? and if she begs ... at what point would she stop accepting his answer of "no" and simply resign concent?

humbly,
sunshine




_____________________________

"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

(in reply to sunshine333)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: what's a slave to do? - 12/30/2005 6:17:48 AM   
MrDiscipline44


Posts: 1776
Joined: 1/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshine333

and, as a side note ... my belief is that dealing with a slave with disorders is very different than dealing with an Owner with disorders as each have a different level of responsibility to one another.

humbly,
sunshine

I don't see a difference here. The slave and the Master both made a commitment to take care of eachother. Just in different fashions. If you believe a Master should take care of the slave when it is ill, why would it be any different for the slave? What would you think of a Master that just dumps a slave to fend on it's own when it is sick? Thats how I would view anyone that leaves another they made a commitment to just because they are sick. In my view, it is lowly, dispicable person who would leave another in a time of need like that.

Now if the Master commited a "heinous" act or crime, was not who they said they were or some such thing, then yes the slave can and should beg release. If not given then they should run then.

_____________________________

If you love somebody, you have to be willing to break them.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.

Have you slapped your slave today?

(in reply to sunshine333)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: what's a slave to do? - 12/30/2005 7:59:15 AM   
wolffeathers


Posts: 315
Joined: 8/6/2005
From: Clearwater
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshine333

there is a thread on the general board about ownership and what it means. some feel that once a slave is owned that she has no rights. others feel that she still retains basic human rights and is ultimately responsible for her wellbeing.


Everyperson is resposible for their own wellbeing to an extent. Hopefully, my replies to your situations below will show you what I mean by that. Also, I am going to be writing this as if a kajira has come to me asking for advise. Not saying you are in this situation.

quote:

i am curious how (earth) goreans feel about this ... specifically ... what should an "owned" slave do when her Owner no longer possesses the qualities that made him a suitable Owner to begin with?


Be a bit more specific. Are you say he lost his job? No longer seems like a good Master? There are many things that will make someone no longer a "suitable Owner"

quote:

for example ... what if he develops a mental illness ?


Aid him to the best of your abilities. If the illness puts you or him at risk, get him professional help.

quote:

... or, what if he commits a heinous crime?


Again, this depends on the person. Some view shoplifting as heinous.

However, this is one situation, that if you believe that your Master is quilty of murder, RUN FOR THE HILLS.

quote:

... or, what if he becomes abusive? ...


Send him to me.....I can't stand abuse.....

Again, this is a situation that one must run. From experence, it's harder to run when you have given your heart to someone, even if they are abusive.

quote:

or, what if, after accepting his collar she realizes that he is not the man she thought he was? ... etc.


Ask for release. Tell your Master that he is not what you thought he was. If he is a man of honor, he will grant that release.

If he is not, see my answer under abusive. As that is what he will eventually turn into.

quote:

should a slave beg release ... and accept no for an answer? should she resign consent and run for the hills? should she accept her fate and stay with and continue to serve her "unfit" Owner until death due they part or he initiates the release of her?


Depending on the situation. We are on Earth, not Gor. Even though most of us here would rather this world worked like Gor, it doesn't. You are responsible for your own saftey. As my kajira brought up in another thread, the Masters are human. We have human flaws. Sometimes, those flaws are not known till a relationship starts, and those flaws may be deadly.

All must remember, we have to live within the Earth laws. Such as it is, even though it may be fun, I could not challenge another Master for his slaves to combat (well, not combat that could be deadly). Even the selling of kajira will get us thrown in jail. Therefore, even if our ideals are one thing, we must stay within another.

Also, it is the responsiblity of both Master and slave to stay safe. There is a differnce between me hurting my property, and me killing her. I expect her to run if she ever thought that I may hurt her in some way that would be lasting that is not a brand.

You give consent to be kajira. It is a lifestyle, yes, but it is not the way the world works. If you take that consent from someone that fills most of the questions you have asked, I would hope that most would not look down on you. However, you take that consent from someone that has treated you well because he is not what you wanted, that is differnt. If my kajira came to me and asked for release, and has a damn good reason for it, then I will grant it. And I expect the same from ANY man that has honor.
quote:


humbly,
sunshine


I hope my answers help you a little, sunshine. Everyone here will have differnt ideals, and take the Gorean way differnt. I live in a world of logic (I'm a computer geek, so logic helps alot), so therefore I look at everything logically. If a Master is no longer looking out for your saftey, you must do so. As I have stated before, there is a differnce between a doormat, and a slave. In my experence, those that are looking for doormats are not the type that should be called Master by anyone.

_____________________________

It's my way or the highway. Just happens that the highway is on my way.

~Master Wolf

(in reply to sunshine333)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: what's a slave to do? - 12/30/2005 2:13:11 PM   
MasterFerdinand


Posts: 59
Joined: 11/30/2005
From: Hell, or Texas...whichever...
Status: offline 		greetings sunshine, and good topic,

First, sanity rules! After sanity should come safety. A Master should be providing a safe and secure House.

If a Master for whatever reason can no longer provide for the safety, and well-being of his slave, that's a deal-breaker. she is free of her obligations to him. Period. No begging, no anything else. The arrangement is over. Now, if there is some illness involved which incapacitates the Master, the slave must then make her own decision whether she is fit to take the reigns of the House into her own hands, and hold everything in trust for him, or not.

A slave in this situation is going to feel unfulfilled though, I expect. And One must always consider the danger, such as a schizoid, or psychotic Master. In such a situation, notify the master's next of kin, and seperate herself from him.

_____________________________

Everyone seems normal, until you get to know them

(in reply to sunshine333)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: what's a slave to do? - 12/30/2005 2:28:24 PM   
sunshine333


Posts: 203
Joined: 8/16/2005
Status: offline
quote:

If you believe a Master should take care of the slave when it is ill, why would it be any different for the slave? What would you think of a Master that just dumps a slave to fend on it's own when it is sick? Thats how I would view anyone that leaves another they made a commitment to just because they are sick.


MrDiscipline ... thanks for taking the time to respond. and i totally agree that anyone abandoning anyone they care for when they're ill is a horrible thing to do. however, that wasn't my question. maybe i'll try to rephrase it in case others, also misunderstood.

if a slave no longer feels that she is in good hands ... if the trust she had in her Master is gone ... if her Master changes in ways that make her feel emotionally or physically unsafe ... if she notices, after accepting his collar, that he is not as honorable, trustworthy, honest, balanced, sensible, etc as she thought he was ... is it within her rights to beg release ... and ... if denied ... to release herself?

this is a question about ownership and the rights of slaves. this is not about abandoning someone who is ill. a Master and slave can still care for and help each other even after a collar ... and all that it implies ... is removed.

humbly,
sunshine

(in reply to MrDiscipline44)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: what's a slave to do? - 12/30/2005 4:38:06 PM   
SirDarkside357


Posts: 393
Joined: 8/7/2005
Status: offline 		It doesn't matter what you call yourself, there are a few "laws" that we all must follow or suffer confinment....when I take a slave she has 3 choices, opey me, disobey and be punished, or leave and never return.......the third option is what makes real life different than fantasy...and anyone that thinks otherwise, well I hope they are slave and not Master, because I pity the slave that has a Master that lives so far into fantasy world.

(in reply to sunshine333)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: what's a slave to do? - 12/30/2005 4:45:46 PM   
MrDiscipline44


Posts: 1776
Joined: 1/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshine333


MrDiscipline ... thanks for taking the time to respond. and i totally agree that anyone abandoning anyone they care for when they're ill is a horrible thing to do. however, that wasn't my question. maybe i'll try to rephrase it in case others, also misunderstood.

if a slave no longer feels that she is in good hands ... if the trust she had in her Master is gone ... if her Master changes in ways that make her feel emotionally or physically unsafe ... if she notices, after accepting his collar, that he is not as honorable, trustworthy, honest, balanced, sensible, etc as she thought he was ... is it within her rights to beg release ... and ... if denied ... to release herself?

this is a question about ownership and the rights of slaves. this is not about abandoning someone who is ill. a Master and slave can still care for and help each other even after a collar ... and all that it implies ... is removed.

humbly,
sunshine

Oh, well why didn't you say so in the first place? LOL. I think that this second part of what I posted answers that:

quote:

Now if the Master commited a "heinous" act or crime, was not who they said they were or some such thing, then yes the slave can and should beg release. If not given then they should run then.


To me, this includes not being honorable, trustworthy, honest, balanced, sensible, etc as he presented himself to be. The reason a slave begs the collar of a Master is because she feels that she can trust Him and feel safe in His care. If she no longer feels those two things, well, to coin a phrase, it's a deal breaker.


_____________________________

If you love somebody, you have to be willing to break them.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.

Have you slapped your slave today?

(in reply to sunshine333)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: what's a slave to do? - 12/30/2005 10:10:32 PM   
Delvin


Posts: 151
Joined: 8/23/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline 		I believe we can all agree as intelligent humans that if one we care for and love is ill, mental or otherwise, we will do our best to nurse them back to good health. Let us remove some of the key words a moment safety, rights and release and cover them below. We all agree this is consensual between two or more adults to live this way and some of us have gone to extremes to live this life in absence of acceptance of family and friends. We seek happiness and in that, we find like minded people to live with, to live through this life. So yes, we will always care at some basic level for the ones we are with unless we are sociopaths.

1) Safety - This is a basic instinct and really, unless you wish to take your slavery to such a depth as to place your own life at the hands of another, you will always attempt to be aware of your value as a human being. We are after all, humans regardless of what "flavor" of human we wish to label ourselves, Gorean or not. So, if your life is threatened, you feel you could die by the hand of your Master because of mental illness, then he needs medical help far greater then you can offer, you instruct the authorities and help him get to a safe place where he can not hurt you or others.

2) Rights - We all claim at some level the rights of a slave are some to none. This is all accepted within the consensual part of slavery though most authorities may view it differently and often do. Your rights as a human being outweigh any rights you wish to give up within this dynamic lifestyle. If you are unable to decide what your rights are, guarantee the law will decide for you. That being said, your rights as a slave are the ones defined by your Master (who is now incapacitated for whatever reason) and you. Remember that initial meeting where you spoke to one another and negotiated your slavery? What changed?

3) Release - Whew, this is always a very hard one to watch a slave go through. The internal struggle to be slave and to set her free is sometimes overwhelming to the point of fogging logical thought. (See 1 and 2 above). I have known of slaves, who, after being with a Master, and that Master has turned out to be something else, they have ran, not walked, ran far away from these so called men. Did it hurt them? A question to them is needed perhaps, but yes I would think it was very difficult. To beg release from someone who may not even know who they are? Redundant. If your Master has an illness which removes him as Master, then who do you beg?

Ultimately you really need to ask yourself how deep is your slavery to you and at what cost does it override your basic desire to be alive on this planet? If your life means so little as to be torn as to whether to stay or go away from a "Master" who may harm or kill you, then perhaps reevaluating your devotion to this life is in order.

This is Consensual. This is agreed upon at the beginning by adults. This is where the fantasy of being a slave and the reality of being a slave clash. Reality is brutal and sometimes fatal to the girl that walks into it blind.

Please note, the word “you” is simply any girl who may be reading this.

D

(in reply to MrDiscipline44)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: what's a slave to do? - 12/31/2005 3:38:25 AM   
Malkinius


Posts: 1584
Joined: 1/9/2004
Status: offline 		greetings sunshine...

quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshine333

<snip>

if a slave no longer feels that she is in good hands ... if the trust she had in her Master is gone ... if her Master changes in ways that make her feel emotionally or physically unsafe ... if she notices, after accepting his collar, that he is not as honorable, trustworthy, honest, balanced, sensible, etc as she thought he was ... is it within her rights to beg release ... and ... if denied ... to release herself?

this is a question about ownership and the rights of slaves. this is not about abandoning someone who is ill. a Master and slave can still care for and help each other even after a collar ... and all that it implies ... is removed.

humbly,
sunshine


There have been a number of good posts of which Delvin's was probably the best. This is an old question with an old and simple answer. The simple answer is that the slave has two choices and only two. They can stay a slave or they can fail as a slave.

If they stay a slave, once again they have two choices. They can do the best they can with the Master they have as they are now or turn out to be or they can beg release, assuming the Master is mentally competent to beg release from. If they are not released, the slave goes to option two.

If the person decides to no longer be a slave for whatever reason, then they have failed as a slave. This choice may be and has been the absolute best choice a person can make. That does not change the fact that they are no longer a slave. They may become a slave again and many do and some become fantastic slaves for having failed and learned and grown from that failure.

Goreans like to say that the choice of a Master is the last free choice a slave can make. It is. However, the slave must constantly make the slave choice. The choice, as Hamlet said, to be or not to be. Slave failure only occurs when the slave chooses not to be...a slave.

be well.....

Malkinius

(in reply to sunshine333)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: what's a slave to do? - 12/31/2005 5:24:36 PM   
Petruchio


Posts: 1614
Joined: 2/6/2005
Status: offline 		Several have offered good advice:
quote:


We are on Earth, not Gor.

quote:


It doesn't matter what you call yourself, there are a few "laws" that we all must follow or suffer confinment.

quote:


I believe we can all agree as intelligent humans that if one we care for and love is ill, mental or otherwise, we will do our best to nurse them back to good health. Let us remove some of the key words a moment safety, rights and release and cover them.

You may believe I was too hard on you, but I was concerned that you might be asking a serious, real-life question and not asking idle rheortical questions.

Don't confuse the two: Real lives are more important than fictional fun.

Like you, however, I do distinguish between a master's responsibility and a slave's. You are right that a slave is a dependent and I believe a Master should provide for his sub. However, in sickness and in health applies to both in their own capacities, as does honor.

(in reply to Malkinius)
Profile   Post #: 20
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