Why are Goreans so mean?

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Why are Goreans so mean?

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Why are Goreans so mean? - 1/1/2009 8:22:24 AM

OrionTheWolf

Posts: 7329
Joined: 10/11/2006
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Greetings to Free and property,

We have all seen the question before, and it usually comes up in the middle of a topic. Because of recent emails I have received asking this question, I felt the community could add why they feel that others believe Goreans to be mean sometimes. Honestly, sometimes I am mean, and it is intentional. Most times I am just straight forward, blunt, and passionate which comes across as mean. As someone noted in another topic, Goreans usually will voice their opinion without all the sugar coating, so in today's overly sensitive world it comes across as mean.

Thoughts?

Live well,
Orion

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.

Post #: 1

RE: Why are Goreans so mean? - 1/1/2009 9:02:20 AM

alysia

Posts: 257
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Wales
Status: offline

Greetings Master Orion,

Mean to alysia is when someone is deliberately nasty and spiteful in both their actions and their words. The Goreans can be and frequently are, harsh to others especially those who are not Gorean. It can and often does make alysia laugh to read the sarcastic, dry responses to some of the questions posted here and this girl can understand why the sarcasm and harshness, but then it can also make alysia cringe to read them and be glad she is not the one on the receiving end... Basically what alysia was trying to say is even though Goreans can seem harsh, she does not find you mean.

well wishes,

alysia

PS.. Happy New Year all x

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 2

RE: Why are Goreans so mean? - 1/1/2009 9:21:04 AM

ElizabethAnne

Posts: 1711
Status: offline

Howdy Orion,

I hope this year brings health, wealth and prosperity to you and yours.   And for me wealth is not always measured in gold and silver. Great topic idea.   I have had this talk with jo several times. She remembers once in a post a "slave" had asked for mercy for something she had said, I don't recall what it was, but it just struck me as innane. So I posted back to her a simple answer..."no".    She didn't know who I was then, and she was new to the Gorean thread. And she was appalled that what I had said...was ok, and that everyone on the Gorean thread was soo..sooo mean.

It's almost sad in today's world being blunt is seen as being mean.   I too have been accused of being blunt, but what no one ever has to wonder with me is where they stand. They know exactly what I mean, don't ask a question when you really don't want an honest answer. That's another thing I treasure about Goreans, I can ask a question, and I KNOW it will be a straight shooting answer. I may not like it...but, hey...I did ask. For me, I EXPECT Goreans to be honest, blunt, straight forward, men or women.   Frankly, if a person cannot withstand an on line scrutiny, they have little hope for an off line life around Goreans.

Then I see a "stranger" start a new thread with a question, and the answers aren't what they WANT to hear, so they change their tactics, almost asking for a plea of sympathy or pity.   Not realizing how Goreans view that word, or even the word stranger.   I think one of the best things for a "new" person to realize about Goreans, we tend to be a tight knit group. And mostly everyone knows everyone, or knows someone who knows...reminds me of "Cheers"..heh.   But seriously, the really good thing about this, and this just happened to Brule and I recently, some "Dom" in Columbus was claiming to be Gorean. And claiming to be well known....well if he is, he's not known by anyone I know.   My red flag goes up - and viola...I become "mean".

C'est la vie.

Take care,

Liz

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 3

RE: Why are Goreans so mean? - 1/1/2009 11:05:59 AM

Nemesys

Posts: 148
Joined: 9/3/2005
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According to Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary, the etymology of the first definition of "mean" is derived from Middle English menen, from Old English mǣnan; akin to Old High German meinen "to have in mind".

I think that explains Goreans' meanness pretty well. We have something in mind when we communicate, and that something is the philosophy laid out in Norman's scrolls. It's not a particularly forgiving or patient philosophy, but having a communal philosophical and intellectual base is the difference between what defines us as Goreans vs. most anyone else who posts here. It sets us apart, in both what we say and how we say it.

If appearing mean is the cost of possessing such a base, I suppose I can live with it.

I wish all well, N

_____________________________

"The knife is no less a knife because it makes no sound." -Tarl Cabot

http://goreanunity.org

(in reply to ElizabethAnne)

Post #: 4

RE: Why are Goreans so mean? - 1/1/2009 11:08:17 AM

Musicmystery

Posts: 16548
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline

Tal Orion,

Is it "mean" to tell the truth? To many in today's society, it is. I've seen many a student say I "yelled" at them, when I really simply and calmly told them something they didn't like.

One student a few years back even came up to me after class to let me know she was offended by my chastisement.

I told her, "Good."

Orion, when you or Bull or Kirata or Leonidas etc. post a message essentially saying, "Whoa. What the hell are you saying?" I don't roll over, but I listen, and often, I learn. Are you being mean? Hell no. You are speaking true. Look at the name of my blog--writingtrue. Sometimes truth is something hard to hear.

Mean? No. Real.

And I LIKE real.

Live well,

Tim

_____________________________

Yes, I still update my blog--thanks to all who asked!
http://writingtrue.blogspot.com
Gorean FAQ Threads

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 5

RE: Why are Goreans so mean? - 1/1/2009 12:38:13 PM

Naturallurker

Posts: 117
Joined: 8/22/2008
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General comment

Goreans are no meaner nor otherwise than any other section of society. "Mean" or "mean spirited" is an attitude of mind. Not unlike "good" or "bad" it is not enough to do things by rote and there by become or be mean/good/bad etc it is the intentions behind the act that are significant. Intentions and understanding. If for example you feel there is merit in speaking out in a manner that is uncompromising you may be percieved as mean while not being mean. If you feel churlish or peevish and make what you understand to be a sour tainted comment then how ever you later rationalise it you know that it came from a mean spirited or even angry, part of yourself.
How other people percieve said comment really is immaterial each of us knows when we are being mean or good or bad, just as each of us knows inside when we have reacted with some knee jerk reaction. It just takes a bit of self honesty to own up to the fact if and when called upon to do so.
C'est la Gorean

(in reply to Musicmystery)

Post #: 6

RE: Why are Goreans so mean? - 1/1/2009 1:20:47 PM

Maahsatti

Posts: 2579
Joined: 8/5/2006
Status: offline

Hiya Orion,

I had a little chuckle when I read the name of this thread.
I too have been accused over the years of being *mean* big surprise right?...lol
I have never considered myself mean. I just tell things the way they are. the truth can sometims hurt, yet I expect to be treated with the same honesty.
Never have I asked of any slave or Free, to do or say anything I was not prepared to do and say myself. I expect to be given what I get.
I expect truth and loyalty in the same degreee as I give it.
I may be blunt and painfully truthfull, but I know I am damn well honest and loyal and I tolerate nothing less from those around me.
If that is mean to some?....then I say...so be it.

I hope you have a lovely New Years.
Babs

_____________________________

Gorean women, whether slave or Free,know, that their simple presence, brings joy to men,and I cannot think but that this pleases them.
Outlaw of Gor, pg 54

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 7

RE: Why are Goreans so mean? - 1/1/2009 1:35:04 PM

IrishMist

Posts: 7259
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline

Happy New Year ya'll

Hmm, I guess this means that a new definition for mean has to be added to the dictionary?

Mean: forthright, blunt, to the point, honest….

Did I miss any?

Well, looking at this, then yes, I guess Goreans are mean. Thank the God’s someone is.

Ya’ll have a wonderful new year.

mist

_____________________________

If I said something to offend you, please tell me what it was so that I can say it again later.
Real people are not perfect.
Perfect people are not real.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 8

RE: Why are Goreans so mean? - 1/1/2009 2:41:29 PM

Kirata

Posts: 7249
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemesys

According to Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary, the etymology of the first definition of "mean" is derived from Middle English menen, from Old English mǣnan; akin to Old High German meinen "to have in mind".

I think that nails it, though not quite the way you followed through....

If someone feels hurt by something that was said to them, to my thinking calling it "mean" implies intention, "having in mind" hurting them. This is rarely the case, at least in my experience on these boards. Furthermore, to attribute an outcome to intent asserts not only a claim to knowledge of another's mind, but also the claim that they had knowledge of yours, i.e., that they knew it would hurt. I think the reason we blink when we see such a claim put forward is the sheer absurdity of it. It insults our intelligence and offends our good will.

To visitors: You get things straight from Goreans. It is a quality you will find easy to miss sincerely where it's absent. Learn to appreciate it.

K.

(in reply to Nemesys)

Post #: 9

RE: Why are Goreans so mean? - 1/1/2009 5:12:44 PM

Nemesys

Posts: 148
Joined: 9/3/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

I think that nails it, though not quite the way you followed through....

If someone feels hurt by something that was said to them, to my thinking calling it "mean" implies intention, "having in mind" hurting them.

What you're saying is that if someone takes what we say the wrong way, they may erroneously think that we have an agenda "in mind" to punish them for asking questions or inserting their opinions. I agree with you that (with an occasional exception) that this is not the case.

What I'm saying is that we do indeed have an agenda "in mind", and that agenda is to be Gorean.

To those who truly wish to learn here, there is clearly a huge difference in these apparent mindsets.

For those who merely wish validation of their non-Gorean perspectives, that line is very faint, if not invisible.

I wish you well, Kitara, and Happy New Year. - N

_____________________________

"The knife is no less a knife because it makes no sound." -Tarl Cabot

http://goreanunity.org

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 10

RE: Why are Goreans so mean? - 1/1/2009 6:55:36 PM

Aswad

Posts: 6909
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: online

Tal Kirata,

I agree with the bulk of what you said, except the bit about the implication of knowing the intent of another. An autist made an astute observation to the effect that most communication among neurotypicals is based on a response-predictor model. Which is to say that one will subconsciously pick words based on what one's cultural exposure predicts their effect will be, as if they were code (as opposed to data). It has nothing to do with understanding the mind of another, and everything to do with making a cultural assumption which is as natural and instinctive to reach for as culture-specific idioms are. That's just the way it works.

The problem arises when the prediction is off, due to a mismatch between the cultural norms and either the sender or the receiver. When the two are from different cultures, the likelihood of misprediction rises dramatically, and the Gorean culture, even so diverse as it is in the form found around here, is apparently sufficiently removed from the culture of many who post here to cause misprediction to occur. And bear in mind that tailoring the predictor to the receiver is considered manipulation by most, even in the absence of intentions to that effect, despite manipulation being the norm for human communication in all neurotypical cultures I have encountered. Hence, that doesn't necessarily help, either.

Perhaps it's worth noting that autistics and aspies are frequently seen as mean or rude. If you examine the reasons for that, you will probably find the same thing I have- the reasons are very similar to the reason why Goreans are perceived the same way... or Objectivists... or any group that places any great emphasis on the value of truth, even when that truth is unwelcome. Denial of truth being denial of reason and honesty, there's bound to be clashes between so fundamentally different values. Something about children and drunkards telling the truth, except those generally have special dispensation, much like the fool can say what the rest of the court won't speak near the king. Not everyone acknowledges the cultural requirement that such dispensation is required to adhere to one's fundamental convictions.

Bit redundant, as the Tikka Masala is being mean to me as I type, but the objection was called for.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to Nemesys)

Post #: 11

RE: Why are Goreans so mean? - 1/1/2009 7:40:42 PM

amelliagrace

Posts: 1792
Joined: 8/4/2007
Status: offline

FR -
I've been called mean plenty of times - on and offline. Does this mean I win a Gorean t-shirt?

IOW...
This thread's answers pretty well cover it. Goreans are no more mean (in the ill-intent, or intent to hurt sense of the word) than any other group - and probably a good deal less so than many. Blunt? Sure. Tactless? At times. Excessive? Now and then. Dishonest? Not the real ones. Helpful? Absolutely. Coddling? Not bloody likely. I can truthfuly say, without hesitation, that even those who don't see eye to eye with me, and even those who've voiced strong disagreement with me have also evidenced a sincere desire to seek truth, impart knowledge, and converse with an eye toward the edification of all parites involved. Don't know about anyone else, but I can say that about precious few groups of people I've run across.

Grace

(in reply to Aswad)

Post #: 12

RE: Why are Goreans so mean? - 1/2/2009 3:23:42 PM

Trevelyan

Posts: 528
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Mountain View, CA
Status: offline

Tal Orion

"Many Earth moralities encourage resignation and accommodation; Gorean morality is bent more toward conquest and defiance; many Earth moralities encourage tenderness, pity and gentleness, sweetness; Gorean morality encourages honor, courage, hardness and strength." Marauders, page 17.

I wish you well, and wish all a happy and prosperous new year.

Trevelyan

< Message edited by Trevelyan -- 1/2/2009 3:24:15 PM >

_____________________________

"In short the differences between the men of Earth and those of Gor were almost certain to be primarily cultural, and not physiological."
Mercenaries of Gor

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 13

RE: Why are Goreans so mean? - 1/3/2009 12:39:07 AM

Kobane

Posts: 26
Joined: 8/21/2008
Status: offline

I hate to seem like a nit picker but I've noticed the problem myself. I've been reading a lot of your back topics for a while now. I have also noticed that it is not just an issue with outsiders. Your even guilty of doing among yourselves.

Now keep in mind these are only perceptions.

I'd say the major problem exists in your failure to tell people what they want to hear. I'll even add that some, not all, but some are completely horrible at telling folks what they want to hear.

My two cents on the subject,

Kobane
=)

(in reply to Trevelyan)

Post #: 14

RE: Why are Goreans so mean? - 1/3/2009 4:01:49 AM

Naturallurker

Posts: 117
Joined: 8/22/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kobane

Now keep in mind these are only perceptions.

I'd say the major problem exists in your failure to tell people what they want to hear. I'll even add that some, not all, but some are completely horrible at telling folks what they want to hear.

This is where a fundamental difference in approach lies, what a person wants to hear vs what a person needs or is entitled to hear.

Some post for validation of their own views, some post to explore a subject some post purely and simply because they enjoy the sight of their own words. Writing on a message board or forum really does not extend the writer the right to hear what they wish to hear in reply. That tends to be true whether one is writing to the local parish magazine or to a global internet forum.

Goreans are no less obliged to give the replies that a person wants than any one else. If they do choose to supply a reply all well and good. If they choose to reply in a terse or unpleasant manner (which I imagine to be the average interpretation of mean) then that simply reflects on that particular writer at that particular time. Whether he or she is Gorean, European, American, Stoic, Pragmatist, Socialist Republican Catholic Protestant or a golfer! And !gasp! some post as Goreans who are simply not and never will be. How would you know which was which?

Some Goreans have a mean streak, some Goreans have a low tolerance threshold for inane questions some have boundless enthusiasm for putting over their own particular view point some are crusaders for particular areas of discussion some are not. The majority however would far rather offer a genuine answer than simply hand feed someone what they want to hear

Oh I'm sorry did that sound mean?

(in reply to Kobane)

Post #: 15

RE: Why are Goreans so mean? - 1/3/2009 11:27:40 AM

Nemesys

Posts: 148
Joined: 9/3/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kobane

I have also noticed that it is not just an issue with outsiders. Your even guilty of doing among yourselves.

If you've looked through the archives carefully, you will have noticed that we are "meaner" with each other than with "outsiders" (although it may not seem that way when you're the outsider). You may also notice that this "meanness" is rarely challenged among ourselves, in that most of us take the opportunity to learn from it.

Why is that, do you think?

_____________________________

"The knife is no less a knife because it makes no sound." -Tarl Cabot

http://goreanunity.org

(in reply to Kobane)

Post #: 16

RE: Why are Goreans so mean? - 1/3/2009 12:01:17 PM

Musicmystery

Posts: 16548
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

If you've looked through the archives carefully, you will have noticed that we are "meaner" with each other than with "outsiders" (although it may not seem that way when you're the outsider). You may also notice that this "meanness" is rarely challenged among ourselves, in that most of us take the opportunity to learn from it.

Nicely said.

Live well,

Tim

_____________________________

Yes, I still update my blog--thanks to all who asked!
http://writingtrue.blogspot.com
Gorean FAQ Threads

(in reply to Nemesys)

Post #: 17

RE: Why are Goreans so mean? - 1/3/2009 12:13:05 PM

xxblushesxx

Posts: 9038
Joined: 11/3/2005
From: Kentucky
Status: offline

Hello,

Well, since the question was put out there, I'd just like to suggest that there is a difference between being honest and being rude.
This is not to imply that everyone who claims Gorean status is rude, but just to suggest that it is possible to be all those things at the same time...honest, blunt, rude and mean.
I believe there are ways to convey your thoughts without being "rude" or "mean" to others.
It can be difficult sometimes, and it does take more tact and discretion, but with a little thought and effort it can be done.
Great question, OP!

_____________________________

~Christina

A nice girl with a disturbing hobby

My femdom findom blog: http://www.MistressAvarice.blogspot.com

(in reply to Musicmystery)

Post #: 18

RE: Why are Goreans so mean? - 1/3/2009 1:25:11 PM

ElizabethAnne

Posts: 1711
Status: offline

Hello Christina,

I would think it depends on a person's perception of rude. Perhaps what one person sees as "rude" another sees simply as being blunt.

I wish you well,

ElizabethAnne

(in reply to xxblushesxx)

Post #: 19

RE: Why are Goreans so mean? - 1/3/2009 2:12:28 PM

amelliagrace

Posts: 1792
Joined: 8/4/2007
Status: offline

FR -
I want to make sure that I'm mean enough to fit in. (When in Rome, and all that.)Does the fact that one of the resident slaves here tells me from time to time that I'm cruel count? If not, I suppose I shall have to select some hapless poster upon whom to perpetuate utterly tactless bludgeoning with blunt words.

Grace

(in reply to ElizabethAnne)

Post #: 20

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