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RE: Women and Children First


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RE: Women and Children First - 1/23/2009 3:50:33 PM   
edana


Posts: 594
Joined: 10/13/2004
Status: offline 		FR

This has sort of morphed into a whole other topic, but i wanted to point out that just like a POW will try to escape, a consensual slave is going to test her bonds... the strength of those bonds is her only assurance that she is actually a captive. I can only look at my own life and say that i have tried to turn the tables and or run several times.  Its not a plan i make to see if he is paying attention, its simply my instinct to flee if i can.  Can i be free and thrive? if i can I should, if i cant i should not. Coming to a point where you accept that you are where you belong is the goal, whether that’s free or not.  if you are there, then accepting your 'fate' is much easier. 

_____________________________

In service,

edana

"Discipline turns talent into ability"

(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 341
RE: Women and Children First - 1/23/2009 5:03:10 PM   
BeingChewsie


Posts: 1633
Joined: 10/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

I adapt and obey. I always have. And I can do something right now and be perfectly fine with it, find it completely just and moral because of the way Master views the topic, while I might have considered that very same thing to be totally immoral when I was with my previous partner, or the other way around.
Because of that adaptability I’m unaccountable if I’m not totally held to one other person’s morals. If I don’t have one single person as the guidance for my morals, they just change constantly depending on the situation and nobody can ever count on me, not even me. The drive to define such things for myself and value those definitions above all others just isn't there.


I'm a chameleon too. I just morph into whatever my keepers wish me to be. Some people would find it creepy. Luckily R found me, saw the potential, and thinks I am useful and says it is all part of my "charm" and endearing. His friend's wife jokingly says she is pretty sure if you flip me over there is a place to change the batteries. :).

_____________________________

"In fact, it is my contention that most women are accepting of way less than optimal circumstance constantly, and are lucky to be 'snagged' by the right man, if ever. But it is more by happy accident than by their design. "
~Ron and Hup

(in reply to ishyB)
Profile   Post #: 342
RE: Women and Children First - 1/23/2009 5:05:21 PM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		Hi All, even in this situation of the thread, while i fully believe, understand and expect the social status to exist among Goreans, i see nothing wrong or immoral or unethical etc by a captain insisting the social Order within which most Goreans live, understand and exist be kept, what it comes down to in this situation is -- you will have obedient slaves who easily follow the determination of not only her Master but MEN in general, and you will have disobedient slaves who need some ummm encouragement, not because they are less slave than another but because they do not fully understand the social order and perception they now exist.  And all in all, it really doesn't matter what the slaves do in such a situation, for it will be the Men who enforce the dictates of the majority of the Men.   Does a slave who fights not to remain behind become less of a slave than another who willingly sacrifices herself for random Free she doesn't know from Adam or Eve?  Nope, she simply becomes a disobedient slave in which the Men will have to determine how she is handled.  That's all and yes, its that simple.  The structure of Gorean society does have a huge effect on how much of a perception and understanding and mindset a slave has with regard to the whole of what a slave is among Gor, which is an extension usually of how her Master sees her just a little more generic.

A good captain to me would dictate a keeping of the social understandings and dictates of the society they live within, whether or not slaves survive are at the determination of the Men as a whole, or the captain if he is capable of maintaining his will.

angel

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to edana)
Profile   Post #: 343
RE: Women and Children First - 1/23/2009 7:07:07 PM   
amelliagrace


Posts: 1792
Joined: 8/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: opposingtwilight

Multiple Replies, One Post ...

grace,
way to speak for someone else. I was more interested in what Elisabella had to say but I guess you couldn't resist, could you? -smile-



Dawn -
Actually, I didn't speak for her, but rather, asked a question.  The question was asked with the motivation of pointing out something pertinent to the discussion.  That it just so happens I was correct in understanding what Bella was saying is just a bonus.  It is not the norm for me to post in that manner with regard to her posts, but I believe that so far, I'm batting 1.000 for the times when I have.  Bella, how about correcting me on that if I'm incorrect, would ya?
 
Grace

(in reply to opposingtwilight)
Profile   Post #: 344
RE: Women and Children First - 1/23/2009 9:59:40 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Joined: 5/22/2008
Status: offline 		Grace,

I would if I could, but I can't so I shan't.  You were dead on in your interpretation of my post, and I appreciate you giving your insight.

Take care,
Bella


_____________________________

you're just an empty cage, girl
if you kill the bird

(in reply to amelliagrace)
Profile   Post #: 345
RE: Women and Children First - 1/23/2009 10:38:21 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 6362
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline 		Tal Leonidas,
 
Since we've moved off-topic to a related issue, and probably the central issue, nobody, including me, would argue that Gor, in its culture and laws, isn't what it is. But if that's where we stop, we've neglected to answer some questions. We all know what Gor is, but what does it all mean?
 
If there is something there, something the books are seeking to convey, something the books seek to direct our attention to, then the stories are a means to an end. And if part of what they seek is to direct our attention toward the truths of our nature as Nature has made us, then everything changes. The books aren't about Gor anymore, they're about us.
 
The salient fact of female human nature, then, becomes exactly what the books say it is, namely, that in every free woman there is a slave girl, and in every slave girl there is a free woman. And in that context, Gor's fictional slave girls and free women take on allegorical quality.
 
Fictional customs and laws, crafted to support an allegory that points to something beyond itself, something within our nature, do not trump the reality which is that nature. That is why I do not "get" elevating them above that reality. For in reality, women are women, whether free or slave, and our natural response is to save them.
 
Your favorite poster-child,
 
Kirata
 

 

< Message edited by Kirata -- 1/23/2009 10:53:29 PM >

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 346
RE: Women and Children First - 1/24/2009 3:38:40 AM   
opposingtwilight


Posts: 684
Joined: 6/13/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

quote:

ORIGINAL: opposingtwilight
Ah but you see, she did give indication that she desired to live that way. When a FW is captured, she has a choice. She can choose not to live as a slave. Yes, this means she would die. But thats kind of the point. If she chooses to eventually accept her fate and surrender to her master(s), then she is no longer a "Free Woman", she is a slave. She chose to live as a slave.



Hi, Dawn,

I'm sorry but I don't see that as much of a choice.  Choosing to accept your fate and go along with it, when there is no escape other than death, in my mind is a passive survival instinct rather than an active choice. And there is a difference between compliance and surrender.

Otherwise we can say that any woman who spread her legs at gunpoint wasn't actually raped.  She did, after all, consent...and your post basically implies that any duress that the consent occurred under is irrelevant.

Take care,
Bella


I was talking within the context of the books, which I'm hoping everyone realizes are pieces of fiction. Within the context of Gorean law as described in the books, yes, any duress that consent occurs under is irrelevant. Your example about rape at gunpoint is a real life scenario, non fiction, and the rules that apply in one do not apply in the other. -sigh-


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(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 347
RE: Women and Children First - 1/24/2009 3:44:00 AM   
opposingtwilight


Posts: 684
Joined: 6/13/2008
Status: offline 		ishy,

I'm not going to argue with you but I will say this much; I sometimes think that for you to become who you are today, you had to first be emotionally whipped into believing you had no other choice. I think that happens to a lot of women who eventually become slave girls.

On the other hand, you and edana both make good points about how society looks upon people who cannot cope well with self determination. I am guilty of it myself. And you know what, I don't get it. I will probably never get it. In the end, if it makes you happy and its what you need and it doesn't harm anyone else, I can accept your decision. I don't have to get it.

I'm sorry if what I said offended you.




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(in reply to ishyB)
Profile   Post #: 348
RE: Women and Children First - 1/24/2009 3:45:34 AM   
opposingtwilight


Posts: 684
Joined: 6/13/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404

quote:

ORIGINAL: opposingtwilight

Most people just call me Dawn.



Platypusface


Jealous much?



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(in reply to blacksword404)
Profile   Post #: 349
RE: Women and Children First - 1/24/2009 3:50:37 AM   
blacksword404


Posts: 1554
Joined: 1/4/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: opposingtwilight

quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404

quote:

ORIGINAL: opposingtwilight

Most people just call me Dawn.



Platypusface


Jealous much?




Jealous? Me? Of what?   Where did i put my stick?

_____________________________

Don't fight him. Embrace your inner asshole.

Tu fellas magnus penum meum...iterum

Genuine catnip/kryptonite.
Ego sum erus.

The capacity to learn is a gift, the ability to learn a skill, the willingness to learn a choice. Dune HH

(in reply to opposingtwilight)
Profile   Post #: 350
RE: Women and Children First - 1/24/2009 5:53:08 AM   
xBullx


Posts: 3938
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: opposingtwilight

I was talking within the context of the books, which I'm hoping everyone realizes are pieces of fiction.



Ahhhhh, now your agenda becomes more visible...

You're here to save us all from ourselves. Us dreadful cavemen and their slut types that think these books are real life, Of course our free woman won't need your help they are already somewhat complying with your definitions of suitability. Thanks for all your wisdom and help; we get this from time to time when some morally and intellectually more astute folks come by and look after us stone age relics.

Hey we're doing better these days, thanks to Gieco we've become celebrities and are even making a good living in commercials. They barter with us using small green papers that are wonderful kindling for helping start camp fires.



_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

While some people are ruled by emotion, I suspect you'll find that I'm rather obdurate.

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

(in reply to opposingtwilight)
Profile   Post #: 351
RE: Women and Children First - 1/24/2009 7:35:34 AM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Angrylibrarian

I have officially participated in this thread.

This isn't a question my friend.  This is a rhetorical trick. You builders are always pulling this! Notice how  the structure of the problem is all laid out and inflexible, ready to resist all stress tests?

Here's my answer. Who the heck  turned this sinking ship into a socialist utopia? My people are getting in the boats and you're gonna have to kill me to keep that from happening.   We make it to safety, your genetic material gets drowned. Bye!

When are we going to get together? My deadlines are passed.  Buy me beer.



What can I say, I am a Builder through and through.  Besides, they have to be laid out that way if a man wants a straight answer from a blue-robed bastard like you!  The slave has been commanded to keep ample beer cold and at the ready.  I'm on airplanes more than I'd like these days, but around most weekends.  See you soon, my friend.

Leonidas




_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to Angrylibrarian)
Profile   Post #: 352
RE: Women and Children First - 1/24/2009 10:58:04 AM   
starshineowned


Posts: 1551
Joined: 4/19/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

I was talking within the context of the books, which I'm hoping everyone realizes are pieces of fiction. Within the context of Gorean law as described in the books, yes, any duress that consent occurs under is irrelevant. Your example about rape at gunpoint is a real life scenario, non fiction, and the rules that apply in one do not apply in the other. -sigh-


Just curious but..the aspect of slavery, how it occurs within the books is not fantasy. That was and always has been a part of real human history. Simply applying fictional aspects to it doesn't negate that slavery ..by and large as it is depicted within the Gor series is nothing more than a re creation of what mankind has done.

This has always been my link to here because of the models of historic slave holding cultures mankind has had to which Norman drew upon.

starshine


_____________________________

"And in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." --Abraham Lincoln

(in reply to opposingtwilight)
Profile   Post #: 353
RE: Women and Children First - 1/24/2009 11:09:54 AM   
opposingtwilight


Posts: 684
Joined: 6/13/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

quote:

ORIGINAL: opposingtwilight

I was talking within the context of the books, which I'm hoping everyone realizes are pieces of fiction.



Ahhhhh, now your agenda becomes more visible...

You're here to save us all from ourselves. Us dreadful cavemen and their slut types that think these books are real life, Of course our free woman won't need your help they are already somewhat complying with your definitions of suitability. Thanks for all your wisdom and help; we get this from time to time when some morally and intellectually more astute folks come by and look after us stone age relics.

Hey we're doing better these days, thanks to Gieco we've become celebrities and are even making a good living in commercials. They barter with us using small green papers that are wonderful kindling for helping start camp fires.




That was just inane, Bull.

I like Goreans. Don't be an idiot just to try to make me look bad. It only works when you're with your friends.

Unlike you, I don't spout drivel and then claim to have a secret agenda behind every little thing I say and do. I'm pretty straight forward. I live in the moment, the here and now. You should try it sometime. Its nice here.


< Message edited by opposingtwilight -- 1/24/2009 11:10:51 AM >

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(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 354
RE: Women and Children First - 1/24/2009 12:11:35 PM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: opposingtwilight

That was just inane, Bull.

I like Goreans. Don't be an idiot just to try to make me look bad. It only works when you're with your friends.

Unlike you, I don't spout drivel and then claim to have a secret agenda behind every little thing I say and do. I'm pretty straight forward. I live in the moment, the here and now. You should try it sometime. Its nice here.



What's the deal, kiddo?  You seem to have gone from curious inquirer to angst filled protester fixated on personalities within just a few days.  Maybe it's time to take a step back and a deep breath and decide why, and whether, you really want to continue reading along.

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 1/24/2009 12:12:55 PM >

_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to opposingtwilight)
Profile   Post #: 355
RE: Women and Children First - 1/24/2009 6:56:04 PM   
unownedredhead


Posts: 498
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ishyB
quote:

ORIGINAL: opposingtwilight
So you're saying you'd rather be left to drown then? (Your profile describes you as a slave and I can only assume you chose that position for yourself.)
quote:

.......................Gorean and Western society have sets of morals and ideals that they expect Free people to live up to. I found out a long time ago that when left to my own devices, I fail to live up to all of them. I consistently make bad judgment calls and take the easy way out. I cannot ever reach the goals I set for myself, because I have no self-control, determination or self motivation.
I am a natural slave, because I fail at being free.   I wish you well,  ishy


Please forgive the hijack.  I know women who are just like you ishyB  and I have seen them blossom under the hand of the right Master.   I am not a failure at being free.  I hold a job of great import.  I own land.  I spend my free time in constructive ways.   But, as I am sure you felt ishy, there was something missing.  I feel, since my Master died, I am waiting.  It is a strange sense of emptiness and a deep burn in my belly.  I don't know how I can describe it except, I am free and not free. 

Please forgive me for this hijacking.

I would hope the free Men would toss my ass overboard as I am one hell of a swimmer and if they did not row too fast,  I could keep the boat in sight and follow them to land.



_____________________________

Kneeling trembling at your feet

(in reply to ishyB)
Profile   Post #: 356
RE: Women and Children First - 1/24/2009 6:57:42 PM   
opposingtwilight


Posts: 684
Joined: 6/13/2008
Status: offline 		Something tells me this is more of a gentle smack on the nose to shut me up rather than a sincere inquiry. 

_____________________________


(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 357
RE: Women and Children First - 1/25/2009 11:36:43 AM   
patina


Posts: 493
Joined: 9/14/2006
From: no
Status: offline 		i think she just likes to come over here and try to show how smart she is.  Then insult individuals, and harass us in private emails.   i  did block you after your last message, as you are right i can be a Bitch.  As i said before go away.  I changed my mind i am not leaving i am Gorean i am staying.

patina(KJH)   

_____________________________

a diamond in the rough

(in reply to opposingtwilight)
Profile   Post #: 358
RE: Women and Children First - 1/25/2009 11:48:13 AM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: opposingtwilight

Something tells me this is more of a gentle smack on the nose to shut me up rather than a sincere inquiry. 


Nah.  If I was going to give you a "shut up" smack it'd be aimed a bit lower, but I learned a long time ago that verbal smacking over the internet generally does little to improve a girl.  The inquiry was genuine.  From where I'm sitting it looks like you might have some history with some of the individuals here that I'm not privy to that has you spinning off on sparring with personalities, rather than thinking about the subjects being discussed.  I could be wrong.




_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to opposingtwilight)
Profile   Post #: 359
RE: Women and Children First - 1/25/2009 12:04:26 PM   
Raechard


Posts: 3513
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: S.E. London U.K.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas
You're the Captain of the Titanic (the Gorean version). 

So it's a space ship?
quote:
She's going down.

So it isn't a space ship?
quote:
There are enough lifeboats for all of the free men, and women, but if all of the free men and women are seated, the slaves will be left behind.  Who makes it to safety, and who goes down with the ship?

 
Simple answer how many slaves can you bare to part with? Wouldn't you prefer to kill some of the other free people and commandeer the life boats with more slaves for you?



_____________________________

えへまにんへえや
Nobody wants to listen to the same song over and over again!

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 360
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