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RE: Women and Children First - 1/25/2009 12:46:51 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raechard

Simple answer how many slaves can you bare to part with?

We could bare them all if we wanted, assuming they weren't already naked. What would stop us? But why would we have to strip them to part with them?

K.

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RE: Women and Children First - 1/25/2009 12:55:05 PM

Raechard

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Aren’t they naked to begin with, freezing waters though, could be tricky.

Sorry: How many can you bear to part with?

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RE: Women and Children First - 1/25/2009 4:58:50 PM

opposingtwilight

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quote:

ORIGINAL: patina

i think she just likes to come over here and try to show how smart she is. Then insult individuals, and harass us in private emails. i did block you after your last message, as you are right i can be a Bitch. As i said before go away. I changed my mind i am not leaving i am Gorean i am staying.

patina(KJH)

In that case, perhaps you should let it go, no?

I never told you to leave. In fact, I suggested you stick around and keep posting. My comment to you earlier on was not to prove how smart I am but rather to prove how smart you are because you seemed to be doubting it. You responded by being bitchy .... We're both bitchy, I guess. Yay us.

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RE: Women and Children First - 1/25/2009 5:00:28 PM

opposingtwilight

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas

quote:

ORIGINAL: opposingtwilight

Something tells me this is more of a gentle smack on the nose to shut me up rather than a sincere inquiry.

Nah. If I was going to give you a "shut up" smack it'd be aimed a bit lower, but I learned a long time ago that verbal smacking over the internet generally does little to improve a girl. The inquiry was genuine. From where I'm sitting it looks like you might have some history with some of the individuals here that I'm not privy to that has you spinning off on sparring with personalities, rather than thinking about the subjects being discussed. I could be wrong.

Well, I made most of it public so just about everyone is privy to it at this point. Unfortunately sometimes the subjects being discussed are thin veils anyway.

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RE: Women and Children First - 1/29/2009 2:41:09 AM

Leonidas

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

The salient fact of female human nature, then, becomes exactly what the books say it is, namely, that in every free woman there is a slave girl, and in every slave girl there is a free woman. And in that context, Gor's fictional slave girls and free women take on allegorical quality.

I do not own an aligorical plot device. I own a slave. Does she have, at times, some desire to recollect her freedom? Sure. Her slave nature is stronger, thus she has remained in the collar of a man who sees her, treats her, and keeps her as a slave for years. It's where she belongs. Most women don't know themselves well enough to understand the difference. Most men don't know themselves well enough to make the distinction.

From my point of view, that's too bad, but I'm not bound to give a fuck, really.

quote:

Fictional customs and laws, crafted to support an allegory that points to something beyond itself, something within our nature, do not trump the reality which is that nature. That is why I do not "get" elevating them above that reality. For in reality, women are women, whether free or slave, and our natural response is to save them.

You need to get out more, Kirata, is all I can tell you. I am certain that what you tout as universal nature makes damn good sense to you, as an American who has probably never been under survival pressure, or even been up close and personal with people who are. As someone who has had a front row seat for such things, I can assure you that chivalrous virtue is not universal human nature. It is, however, a specific ideal of "manhood" that has been passed down to us, but it is not a Gorean ideal.

What is Gorean is that there would be men aboard that ship who would give up their seat for a female. Any female. They probably woudln't make it, and from a Gorean point of view, they shouldn't make it. Their suicidal altruism excused them from the gene pool. There might be a few who would make it. Either by virtue of their physical prowess or exceptional ingenuity they'd save the girl, and get themselves and her to safety. That too is as it should be, from a Gorean point of view. What also is as it should be, from a Gorean point of view, is that the societal norm is for the men to defend the perpetuation of the clan, and those members of the clan whose tratis they put the highest value on perpetuating.

Most of the "fictional customs" you refer to are completely self-consistant expressions of a Gorean morality. They are not alligorical plot devices meant to reassure us that our own morality is correct. I think you're equating "Gorean" and "Social Conservative". You'd like to return to the values of America 100 years ago, or Edwardian England. That and Gorean isn't the same thing.

quote:

Your favorite poster-child,

Don't know about my favorite, but you are racking up some frequent flier miles.

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 1/29/2009 2:42:55 AM >

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RE: Women and Children First - 1/29/2009 5:33:34 PM

AlwaysLisa

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quote:

You're the Captain of the Titanic (the Gorean version). She's going down. There are enough lifeboats for all of the free men, and women, but if all of the free men and women are seated, the slaves will be left behind. Who makes it to safety, and who goes down with the ship?

No rhetorical waffling and side-stepping if you please. Confront the question head-on.

Greetings...

Would it depend on whether you could overpower the captain, or not? If the ships captain was the spitting image of Don Knotts, would you listen to his word, even if he was the person in charge?   Or would he find himself swimming alongside the ship?

Where would chain of command come into play and how far would it go? Slaves obey the free, but who do the free listen to?   Just on this message forum the responses have been varied and lively...I would hope that it all could be sorted out if such an instance occured, before the ship went under :)

If you, (any generic alpha male), disagreed with what you were being told, would you go toe to toe with the ships crew, or follow orders as given? I read alot about a womans worth and such, but not many posts reflecting how a ship full of alpha males would react at being told to do something they may not see eye to eye with.

Just a guess...I'm thinking the captain better be packin heat.   Or at least have a First Mate built like Arnold.

Lisa

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RE: Women and Children First - 1/29/2009 5:39:35 PM

hopelessfool

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I havent read the whole thread and am admitedly not gorean. But Im here to ask a question. On gor men are dominant because they are the stronger sex. So, wouldnt it make sense that the stronger sex do the swimmin and the weaker sex take the boats. If ones to say the Dominant sex is to take the easy way out and sit on a boat while the helpless wimen folk are left to drown, are they really the dominant sex, or well just -shifty eyes- (oh this is going to get me flamed) jerks...

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RE: Women and Children First - 1/29/2009 6:05:36 PM

allyC

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Hello, hopelessfool. The decision has to do with free and slaves - not women and men. Men are not dominant because they are the stronger sex. Men are dominant if they are dominant. If they are not, they are not. No one has said all of the women should drown. No one has even said all of the slaves should drown. But if it were a Gorean ship with a Gorean captain, the people who are free would have a place secured for them on the lifeboat before a slave would. It has to do with freedom, status and value - not gender. Well wishes, Cav's ally

< Message edited by allyC -- 1/29/2009 6:06:59 PM >

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RE: Women and Children First - 1/29/2009 6:10:53 PM

hopelessfool

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Ally Im going off the assumption that all women free or not are or can be slaves while its very likely not true for men unless they wish it. Seeing as Gor is a more Male slated dominant place. It make sense the men being stronger in 99% of cases free or not to swim and allow the women who are 99% of the time weaker to take the boats, status or not. The Dominants of the situation are that way for a reason, they should then uphold to that reason. Unhappy making or not.

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RE: Women and Children First - 1/29/2009 6:20:15 PM

blacksword404

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hopelessfool

The Dominants of the situation are that way for a reason, they should then uphold to that reason. Unhappy making or not.

Why?

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RE: Women and Children First - 1/29/2009 6:29:09 PM

hopelessfool

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Because what makes you dominant if you dont prove it when its nessicary. If you are dominant because your stronger, prove it. To me its weak to sit in the life boat when you could swim to safety. I mean it only takes one male to repopulate a clan but it does take more then one female seeing as they can only carry one child at a time, so all women on the boat with one or two men from every clan, so that the species continues. If its about survival of the fittest, putting all men together who cant exactly reproduce with each other doesnt really work. The only other pheasble option is to put all women of child bearing age on the boats free or not, and anyone who wouldnt help with the survival of the species gets offed Man or woman Free or not. But then this is on gor. On earth, Im one hell of a swimmer, and I have built in floatation devices.

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RE: Women and Children First - 1/29/2009 6:30:27 PM

allyC

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Hello again, hopelessfool. If we are speaking of fictional Gor, there were many male slaves and many of them did not go that route by choice (although some certainly did). In addition, the percentage of free women to slaves was mentioned as being quite a staggering ratio. LOTS of free women compared to slave women. Just because someone "can" be made a slave does not mean they "are" a slave. Again I believe the question in the original post itself was posed with regards to a person's status - free or slave. Not their gender. Edited to also add... on the fictional planet of Gor, one's status of being "free" did not make them dominant in nature - it simply meant they were free and not enslaved. You are confusing dominance and submission with status. Well wishes, Cav's ally

< Message edited by allyC -- 1/29/2009 6:32:48 PM >

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RE: Women and Children First - 1/29/2009 6:38:58 PM

hopelessfool

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No, Im not confusing dominance with status. Im stating this. What ive read of the boards of the books. Theres a hirerarcy no? Free Men Free Women slaves. I can be free all i wish if theres someone stronger then me that wishes me their slaves they can make it as such or i can die. For the most part male slaves or not. Men tend to be at the top of the food chain, because of mental and physical prowess. Its simply how its described. Status really has nothing to do with the issue if you look at it from a survival stand point. If you look at it from a status point of view propery doesnt get life passage. If you look at it from a survival point of view it only takes a few males to repopulate where as it takes multiple females.

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RE: Women and Children First - 1/29/2009 6:46:23 PM

allyC

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Hello again.
Your post leads to the crux of the matter, hence it's title "Women and Children first." (which is the phrase used when referencing a survivial of the species (and chivalric) way of determining who is given preference to have safety in a disaster situation) Survival of the species is indeed important and affects our primal responses. In the case of a Gorean ship, however, with strong, free men and strong, free women being on the boats, would that not be more conducive to survival of the species? If the boats were full of those who either a: Willingly gave up their freedom or b: Had it taken from them and were unable to exert their free nature (if it existed) to up their status, then the lifeboats would be full of people who aren't capable or who don't want to be capable of leading. I would imagine if it came down to it and there were 500 people on board and only 200 slots to fill and there were 300 free persons on board, the free women would be boarded first, followed by free men. Again, status being the key when speaking of a Gorean situation. Well wishes, Cav's ally

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RE: Women and Children First - 1/29/2009 6:56:51 PM

hopelessfool

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But with the status situation you have to worry about men who love their slaves freeing them simply to get them a spot on the boat. So How would you deal with said situation? now instead of 300 free you have 400 free. would you disinclued the newly made free if they were better suited to bear children over the free that were already there because they were free longer, in such a situation would there be time to make sure that every woman who was free was infact free before hand. Hence why doing it by status doesnt make sense. And I didnt post on status I posted on which would bring the most survival. theres to many veriables that get EVERYONE or nearly everyone killed instead of simply doing it by servival modes, thoes able to bear children, on first males of medium to moderate age, the youngest males to swim the oldest males to swim. Because theres nothing saying that there wouldnt be a free for all (pardon the pun) when playing with the rules of status.

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RE: Women and Children First - 1/29/2009 7:10:09 PM

blacksword404

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hopelessfool

Because what makes you dominant if you dont prove it when its nessicary. If you are dominant because your stronger, prove it. To me its weak to sit in the life boat when you could swim to safety. I mean it only takes one male to repopulate a clan but it does take more then one female seeing as they can only carry one child at a time, so all women on the boat with one or two men from every clan, so that the species continues. If its about survival of the fittest, putting all men together who cant exactly reproduce with each other doesnt really work. The only other pheasble option is to put all women of child bearing age on the boats free or not, and anyone who wouldnt help with the survival of the species gets offed Man or woman Free or not. But then this is on gor. On earth, Im one hell of a swimmer, and I have built in floatation devices.

It's not a man ,woman issue. No matter which way you turn the issue people will die in this scenario. If you send boats full of women and one or two men to shore, who is to say everyone in the boats won't die anyway. A couple of men won't be enough to defend that many women from a larl,sleen or the other wild beast. Everybody can't be saved so who do you save?

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RE: Women and Children First - 1/29/2009 7:11:19 PM

OrionTheWolf

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Just toss anyone overboard that wants to argue for the sake of argument.

quote:

ORIGINAL: hopelessfool

So How would you deal with said situation?

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RE: Women and Children First - 1/29/2009 7:14:11 PM

hopelessfool

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those who best keep the species surviving. In this Id be dead I cant bear children. But if you have the choice of Oh Im a free woman but i cant have children because im past those years or im a slave ripe and free for bearing children. Im going to say slave get on board, If the free woman wants to survive start swimming. If theres the choice between two free men, and two slaves, who are able to bear children but the free men are older, or can not have children, then i say the slaves. If its room for 10 people per boat 4 men 6 women. those of the most furtile age. If there are children who can not bear children then guess what Im bitch enough to say snap their necks more can be born.

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RE: Women and Children First - 1/29/2009 7:16:23 PM

allyC

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Hi again. I do believe that it may be possible that a man may try to free his slave in order to gain her passage on a lifeboat, however, if that man stood in front of the captain, pulled the girl's collar off, said "here, now she's free so let her on board," the Captain would most likely laugh and say... "yeah right." In that case, which free person is going to give up their seat for the newly made "free" person? It isn't that simple. The question was posed under the Gorean umbrella. Within that exists a heirarchy that deals with status. That status is defined by many things, however, in a setting as primal as Gor, those who are slaves were most likely slaves because that is where they belonged. They did not exhibit, embrace, or possess the qualities to be free. I am sure, however, that there are exceptions to that as well. There is a place for each person in the scale of life. From the strongest to the weakest, there is purpose for everyone's existance in the food chain, however, if we are speaking of survival of the species from a Gorean standpoint, I believe that Goreans would prefer to repopulate with those who are strong enough to lead and be free. (Not to mention that slaves on Gor were rendered infertile by way of slavewine) As for those who loved their slaves, perhaps they would stay behind and work to create a way for both of them to survive by some other means rather than ousting a free person from their place on a lifeboat to make room for a slave. Perhaps at this point we should agree to disagree as I don't see this coming to any fruitful conclusion. Well wishes to you, Cavalier's ally

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RE: Women and Children First - 1/29/2009 7:17:44 PM

hopelessfool

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Orion Im not aruging for the sake of arguing. Im saying If your going to play with status;s you have to factor in for it. In a life or death situation, you dont have time to go, oh your free oh your not oh your now free or the such. If I was captian Id say fuck status who puts the odds of survival in all situations in the best favor for majority. Im going to take that option.

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