RE: Women and Children First

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RE: Women and Children First - 1/11/2009 7:39:51 PM

Trevelyan

Posts: 526
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Mountain View, CA
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Tal Leonidas,

The closest incident in the books that I can think of is the action on the piers as Ar's Station is falling in Renegades.

As the city falls, those of Ar's Station who can make it out the back gate to the landing. The group is mostly women, children, and slaves. About one fifth of the group are surviving free men. The Cosians quickly occupy the wall above the landing and start shooting into the crowd. Under Tarl's command, the free men protect and defend the group as best they can, and then form a line of shields so the women, children and slaves can run out to the piers. The men then retreat onto the walkway leading to the piers, and the piers themselves. The walkway is destroyed. On the piers, the free men prepare to defend the group for as long as they can.

There is no question in my mind, if there is one seat on a lifeboat, the free woman goes in it, not the slave girl. But if there are two seats, the free man might well protect his property by getting the slave on the boat too. I notice, in the above example, that the men did not form the slaves into a shield for the free women and children to use to transit the walkway to the piers, they formed the shield themselves, and protected the slaves as well.

It is interesting you mentioned the Titanic. I recently saw "A Night to Remember", a 1958 film about the Titanic. One of the main characters is Charles Lightoller, the second officer of the ship, who was protrayed by Kenneth More in the movie. I think a Gorean man would admire his actions - calmly loading lifeboats to the very end, until the deck literally submerged under his feet. He then swam to an overturned life boat, organized the survivors clinging to it, and got them up out of the water so they could survive. He was the last survivor taken aboard the rescue ship Carpathia. He served in the Royal Navy during the First World War and was twice awarded the DSC. He further distinguished himself in the Second World War by providing and sailing one of the "little ships" during the Dunkirk evacuation.

I wish you well,

Trevelyan

< Message edited by Trevelyan -- 1/11/2009 7:46:37 PM >

_____________________________

"In short the differences between the men of Earth and those of Gor were almost certain to be primarily cultural, and not physiological."
Mercenaries of Gor

(in reply to Leonidas)

Post #: 21

RE: Women and Children First - 1/11/2009 7:40:45 PM

Nemesys

Posts: 142
Joined: 9/3/2005
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Tal,

I'm certain that the girls chained in the hold would have an agenda to do whatever it took to save themselves, so I don't think the reminders from the girls are misplaced here. If there were a bunch of beefy kajirus-types locked down there with them, it might even be a real concern that the captain would have to deal with. Even on Gor, there's plenty of reminders in the scrolls that realities of power trump over ideal philosophies at least 6 out of 7 days of the week. It's that power that gives the captain this life or death decision making ability - the strength of the chains on the slaves - not Gorean philosophies. That said, I agree with the decisions above that he'd be making as a matter of course.

However, if I was a passenger, I'm still trying to decide if the captain of this ship has life or death jurisdiction over me and mine anyway. If there's a character on this ship I don't like, he may find himself over the side ahead of schedule, freeing up a seat for whomever I chose to fill it.

I wish all well, N

_____________________________

"The knife is no less a knife because it makes no sound." -Tarl Cabot

http://goreanunity.org

(in reply to xBullx)

Post #: 22

RE: Women and Children First - 1/11/2009 7:42:41 PM

OrionTheWolf

Posts: 6595
Joined: 10/11/2006
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Tal Bull,

quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

-fast reply-

Interesting replies indeed.......... "Grace the Gorean"........... imagine that.

I think it bears reflection that even on our Earthly version of the Titanic social priority existed.

Kajira know their fate, good thing my ishy is a strong swimmer. This isn't a hard question in as so much it leaves us with interesting commentary, right away we here about this "love slave" notion. A Gorean would know that the free are not sacrificed to save a slave, I suspect on a Gorean Titanic there would be a few free men that would stay behind and tempt fate with the wench they loved, but I doubt their honor would compromise the safety of free.

Maybe on Gor, but here on good old Terra firma, I have found some Free that have very little value to me. Just because someone is Free, does not mean they have value to me, and I am not sure how Gorean philosophy and morality go against it.

quote:

So come on people if you are actually applying the Gorean philosophies to your life this is a no brainer. I have said to many girls that if being mastered seems hard and distasteful, perhaps long distance running should become your new hobby, I would also say the same to those that would be "Gorean", if this morality seems hard enough to crack your shell, the yokes on you.

So if I have a lying, thieving, cheating, Free Man or Woman, they are to be saved over a devoted and extremely useful slave? Sorry but I do not see how the philosophy applies here.

quote:

In our present reality often enough we see the man courting a sweet piece of flesh "side step" or dismiss the "supposed" harshness of Gorean ideoligy to win the favor of a potential slut.

I would save my dog over some people I know. There has to be a value judgment in there somewhere. If it is just Free or slave, then is that not just following along like cattle?

quote:

Many are those that want to apply the philosophies when it's easy and beneficial, but not so much when they have to actually make a choice that in our culture of birth would be looked upon adversely.

What is easy is to use 1's and 0's. What is difficult is to make a judgment based upon a variety of information.

quote:

So I suspect what Leonidas is actually posing in this is ( To be or not to be "Gorean"?) That is the question.

I trust this reply was head on enough...

I do not see a right or wrong here, I see each Free person that was in charge making decisions based upon their personal code/ethics, and it not being against any of the actual philosophy. Now on Gor, there are customs and laws so of course the cattle would be jettisoned to save real people.

Just because someone is Free, does not automatically mean they are more valuable than even the dirt off the bottom of my shoes. Hell if I were a slaver, I would let all the Free drown, claim all the property and make myself a nice profit.

Live well,
Orion

_____________________________

Die, die glauben, erfordern keinen Beweis. Die, die zweifeln, kein Beweis genügen.

(in reply to xBullx)

Post #: 23

RE: Women and Children First - 1/11/2009 7:43:54 PM

OrionTheWolf

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Actual I would just fly everyone to safety on my tarn.

_____________________________

Die, die glauben, erfordern keinen Beweis. Die, die zweifeln, kein Beweis genügen.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 24

RE: Women and Children First - 1/11/2009 7:52:37 PM

Nemesys

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Joined: 9/3/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Actual I would just fly everyone to safety on my tarn.

Oh, an aircraft carrier!

If your tarn could only carry one other person, would you chose your charming slave girl or your not-so-charming FC to ride with you? :-)

_____________________________

"The knife is no less a knife because it makes no sound." -Tarl Cabot

http://goreanunity.org

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 25

RE: Women and Children First - 1/11/2009 7:59:19 PM

amelliagrace

Posts: 1791
Joined: 8/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sujuguete

quote:

ORIGINAL: amelliagrace

Honestly, I just can't see giving someone not willing to fight for their own freedom, my own. They wouldn't know what to do with it.

Grace

Hello Grace,

I'm not sure what fighting for freedom has to do with this scenario. I thought it was about fighting for life. Obviously there are slaves who will fight for their lives, if for no other reason than to provide continued service to their Owners.

And I'm also not sure that the blanket statement, "They wouldn't know what to do with it," holds true. Were not all slaves free at some point in their lives (before becoming slaves)? Do you think all slaves have forgotten how to be free, or would be incapable of functioning as Free if it were forced upon them?

If I have misunderstood your post, I apologize.

Take care,

juguete

As long as one draws breath, one may pursue freedom - and bare it's responsibilities. An individual who has abdicated their freedom to another to the point they can be considered "slave", is a person who wasn't able to seize and hold their autonomy. We are not talking about wifes who's husbands make most of the decisions. Why would I want to relinquish my life for a person who hasn't chosen to sieze and hold their own freedom to begin with?

I realize this is touchy territory. What follows are my own observations in life, and I am sure there are those here who know of exceptions.

I've known a goodly number of slaves and slavish individuals. Some of them use the label slave and some don't - but bottom line, they have given over all sayso in the important decisions of their lives to another. They've chosen not to be partners, but to be property, servant, slave. Whithout exception those individuals were less than optimal parents on their own. Some of them did considerably better - by their own admission, under the strict direction of another individual. Some of them neglected their progeny in the pursuit of finding an owner.
The majority of these individuals did not function well - not by a long shot - without an extremely strong hand pushing them all the way.
Whithout a Master, they had great difficulty managing life without getting into debt, being a slave to their sexuality, or other behaviors that stem from a lack of self mastery. In short, they might be living, but they needed a keeper to keep them on an even remotely even keel.

Now, some will say that there are slaves out there who are doctors, lawyers, etc. who are also great little slaves. I haven't met any. What I have met are some who fall into the submissive catagory, either generally, sexually, or both. There is a difference, but then, that particular debate will rage, I'm sure, until the mountains crumble.

These are part of the reasons why, in the scenario offered (being a Gorean Titanic) I'd not see a lot to be ganined, overall, from trying to save all the slaves at the cost of sacrificing the lives of Free.

A Free person can do the work of a slave, if need be - and many do. There is more than one Gorean Man who's done his own laundry and Christmas shopping. A person who has truly been enslaved, in the philosophically Gorean manner, is not likely to be able to see, operate, and survive life the same way a Free would. Their world view is different, and I don't see how anyone who claims to be Gorean could think that the slave holds greater value to society as a whole, or a group at large, than a Free - in MOST cases.

And I do, in fact, stand by the statement that a slave, simply handed freedom, wouldn't necessarily know what to do with it. Until a person is able to ascert their autonomy to a signifigant extent, and unless that individual is capable of a certain degree of self mastery, then freedom for them would probably be lost quickly.

I don't expect to win any popularity contests with my sentiments here. These views are not PC. I don't consider all slaves to be without merit, or value. Heh, one of my favorite people to hold late night conversations with is a slave - and not the online variety, either.

When it comes to discussing, however, which group has the best liklihood of making use of their survival in a group or societal sense, a boat load of Free, or a boatload of slaves, I'd hang societies fate on the Free long before I would do so on the slaves.

Just an aside, for me, in the course of this discussion, the terms "Free" and "slave" are stricktly gender neutral.

Grace

(in reply to sujuguete)

Post #: 26

RE: Women and Children First - 1/11/2009 7:59:22 PM

Anarrus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

I would save my dog over some people I know. There has to be a value judgment in there somewhere. If it is just Free or slave, then is that not just following along like cattle?

Tal Orion,

As would I!!!!
My dog has more value to me than most people I know.

Iwyw

Anarrus

_____________________________

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free."...Goethe
"Send lawyers, guns and money" ..Warren Zevon

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 27

RE: Women and Children First - 1/11/2009 8:08:07 PM

amelliagrace

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Joined: 8/4/2007
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FR -
Part of the problem is that in a situation like this, the Captain making the decisions doesn't have intimate knowlege of the history, character, talents, and accomplishments of everyone on board.

It would certainly be good if the gene pool could be cleaned up a bit as the ship sinks. I know a few Free I wouldn't mind seeing sink beneath the waves, and think the world would be a better place for it. But that is not a luxury the Captain - and society at large - would have. You then must either have some criteria for prioritizing who goes and who sinks, or bring everyone up on deck for a fight to the death for the seats. Either way, there is no realistic way to ensure that only the most worthy, the most upright of character, and those of greatest long term value survive.

Grace
Edited to change "ways" to "waves".

< Message edited by amelliagrace -- 1/11/2009 8:37:43 PM >

(in reply to Anarrus)

Post #: 28

RE: Women and Children First - 1/11/2009 8:09:50 PM

amelliagrace

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FR -
Ditto on the dogs. Gotta go walk mine for a few.

Grace

(in reply to amelliagrace)

Post #: 29

RE: Women and Children First - 1/11/2009 8:42:21 PM

OrionTheWolf

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Joined: 10/11/2006
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What Free Companion? ;)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemesys

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Actual I would just fly everyone to safety on my tarn.

Oh, an aircraft carrier!

If your tarn could only carry one other person, would you chose your charming slave girl or your not-so-charming FC to ride with you? :-)

_____________________________

Die, die glauben, erfordern keinen Beweis. Die, die zweifeln, kein Beweis genügen.

(in reply to Nemesys)

Post #: 30

RE: Women and Children First - 1/11/2009 8:51:18 PM

OrionTheWolf

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Joined: 10/11/2006
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~FR~

With more thought to it, passengers would be first on the boats. At least 1 or 2 strong men per boat. If I am the Captain, then there was a pledge somewhere to the safety of the passengers. If I do not know anyone, then Free Women would have preference over slaves. I would nor any crew that were needed on the lifeboats would take a seat. Needed meaning those required to see to the safety of those on the boats.

Damn I made the whole thing more complicated than it needed to be in the beginning.

Live well,
Orion

_____________________________

Die, die glauben, erfordern keinen Beweis. Die, die zweifeln, kein Beweis genügen.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 31

RE: Women and Children First - 1/11/2009 9:37:01 PM

Stroke

Posts: 109
Joined: 8/17/2007
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Tal.

It has often been commented on that Men of Gor saw value in their slaves. Although that is so, Norman seemed to go out of his way to emphasise the extrememly high value that Goreans placed on FW. Ironically, in the books we often see FW being shown little regard, but even so, in sayings and reminders the emphasis on a FW's value was repeated. Therefore I have no doubt that the FW, and free children, would be the first on the boats. Since slaves were valued, they would likely go next as permitted by the men.

I do like Orion's idea of the tarn aircraft carrier to pull off a rescue. I believe it was in Raiders of Gor where Tarl unveiled that military strategy against the Cosian navy, and it worked well.

I wish you well,

Stroke

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 32

RE: Women and Children First - 1/11/2009 10:20:55 PM

MAc0ck

Posts: 5
Joined: 2/12/2007
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true
the most useful survive.
Those that can not contribute anything, bye.

(in reply to opposingtwilight)

Post #: 33

RE: Women and Children First - 1/11/2009 11:41:16 PM

Maahsatti

Posts: 2543
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quote:

Actual I would just fly everyone to safety on my tarn.

......LMAO

_____________________________

Gorean women, whether slave or Free,know, that their simple presence, brings joy to men,and I cannot think but that this pleases them.
Outlaw of Gor, pg 54

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 34

RE: Women and Children First - 1/12/2009 12:54:34 AM

FrankAr

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Tal Leonidas,

My first thought would be that I wouold be in the boat and if someone whom is stronger wants to try and remove me, then so be it, knowing that it is either him or me to die, simple. After that I have no concern about whom enters the boats.

Be well.

Frank Ar.

< Message edited by FrankAr -- 1/12/2009 12:55:48 AM >

_____________________________

I am just me, simple ol me.

Even the softest whisper can be heard in the loudest group....Frank H.

(in reply to Leonidas)

Post #: 35

RE: Women and Children First - 1/12/2009 4:07:42 AM

Naturallurker

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Joined: 8/22/2008
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Grace, you made some excellent points IMO

Trevelyan, That film was one of the best and I think it showed a sense of duty and honour that Lange would be all too familiar with and believe worthy.

A point was made in that film and also in accounts of the disaster that one man who did try to save himself first was seen as a coward and much despised by those others who survived.

The man who is both strong and wise knows when to protect the weak and when to sacrifice the weak for a more enduring benefit of the whole. The courage to make leadership decisions that will leave blood on his hands and the humanity to mourn the deaths of those who consequently perished with out shirking either.

(in reply to FrankAr)

Post #: 36

RE: Women and Children First - 1/12/2009 4:29:17 AM

Cherylmazana

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Personally I don’t think this is a simple question.

I think that most men have an instinctual urge to protect women and children. Also I as a woman would give up my place to save a child. If people can rush into burning buildings to save a loved pet I cant believe that some men would not do everything in their power to save a loved slave.

However if you simply do what the captain of the Titanic did you would be repeating his mistake, many of the women saved were then condemned to a life of hardship due to the fact their husband was dead and they were unable to support themselves alone. On Gor many of the free women would be unable to support themselves and slaves without a master would simply be sold, and without their master to protect them on the boat I imagine the free women would demand some be thrown overboard to make room for other free especially if some were in the water and drowning but could be saved by making space.

Would single free men stay on board to make room for men with loved slaves? Would they be willing to die for a slave they didn’t know, especially if slaves are considered nothing more than dogs, I certainly wouldn’t give up my place for a dog, and I am not sure if a free man would give up his place for someone else’s slave, his own slave maybe, but with the knowledge she would be sold? I suspect they would most likely retire to a dry area and instead die together while having sex.

Also Orion nice idea about the Tarns however if memory serves me right they dislike open water, so your Tarn wouldn’t be on a ship anyway.

Cheryl

(in reply to Naturallurker)

Post #: 37

RE: Women and Children First - 1/12/2009 5:11:50 AM

slavetaboo

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greetings Masters,
greetings Mistresses,
greetings slaves,

taboo hates to openly admit that she has struggled with this topic but she has. she realizes in admitting this, she takes the risk of having someone else think she is more or less than she should be. after all, we all want to be the best slaves we can be. hopefully readers will understand that the answers being sought by her apply to present day not textual examples from the books. she noticed no one said they would snatch their slave by the collar and find another way while everyone was fighting over the boats. she thinks it seems like an outrageous assumption to expect all the men to stand waiting on a sinking ship to get the free women boarded. it is an equally outrageous assumption to expect all the men to give up so easily and simply take a seat on the boat concerned with no one but themselves without skipping a beat. she thinks surely some would make either choice, but not all. she thinks some men might grab the few close to them that they know they can save and find another way or at least try. the main thought which causes the snag in her thinking is how do you simply discard something someone so easily if it ever held value for you. perhaps the error in her thinking is that she will never represent something valuable enough to save.

taboo

_____________________________

For I long for a man with nests of wild things in his hair.

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Post #: 38

RE: Women and Children First - 1/12/2009 6:10:02 AM

starshineowned

Posts: 1458
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quote:

You're the Captain of the Titanic (the Gorean version). She's going down. There are enough lifeboats for all of the free men, and women, but if all of the free men and women are seated, the slaves will be left behind. Who makes it to safety, and who goes down with the ship?

Greetings...

Since this is from the standpoint of the Captains role..I would think his duty would be to see to the safety of all passengers first..the Free. It would not be his role or even his privy to know wether they were really worth value to him personally as he measures it, and has no bearing in that sense.

The duty of the Captain and the crew is to go down with the ship if need be but I'm sure they will fight for life and try to find an alternative way of getting off safely. I would also think that some measure of giving the livestock a chance to live would hold some priority once the Free were loaded on the life boats and on their way...(just as a farmer would rush into the burning barn to open as many of the stalls as he could for his horses, and then the rest is up to them to survive.

From what the books use in philosophy and set scenerios..to what would truely happen in the real world application..I suspect that you will find a great many who claim the Gorean label to fall very short of it when life or death is in their face..not to mention quite a few here are actually married to their slaves (another ongoing aspect of what is or isn't Gorean). Where in the real world situation would then be the slaves value versus a person stating they are Free?

As a slave..I know my lot and would not expect to be aboard any dingy boat to safety but given the chance I'd most certainly fight for life.

starshine

_____________________________

Short Cut Tip: If you find my words passive/aggressive?..Drop passive.

I'm a doormat with brains and common sense.

Don't just think outside of the box..Explore It!

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Post #: 39

RE: Women and Children First - 1/12/2009 6:21:35 AM

xBullx

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Tal Orion,

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Tal Bull,

quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

-fast reply-

Interesting replies indeed.......... "Grace the Gorean"........... imagine that.

I think it bears reflection that even on our Earthly version of the Titanic social priority existed.

Kajira know their fate, good thing my ishy is a strong swimmer. This isn't a hard question in as so much it leaves us with interesting commentary, right away we here about this "love slave" notion. A Gorean would know that the free are not sacrificed to save a slave, I suspect on a Gorean Titanic there would be a few free men that would stay behind and tempt fate with the wench they loved, but I doubt their honor would compromise the safety of free.

Maybe on Gor, but here on good old Terra firma, I have found some Free that have very little value to me. Just because someone is Free, does not mean they have value to me, and I am not sure how Gorean philosophy and morality go against it.

quote:

So come on people if you are actually applying the Gorean philosophies to your life this is a no brainer. I have said to many girls that if being mastered seems hard and distasteful, perhaps long distance running should become your new hobby, I would also say the same to those that would be "Gorean", if this morality seems hard enough to crack your shell, the yokes on you.

So if I have a lying, thieving, cheating, Free Man or Woman, they are to be saved over a devoted and extremely useful slave? Sorry but I do not see how the philosophy applies here.

quote:

In our present reality often enough we see the man courting a sweet piece of flesh "side step" or dismiss the "supposed" harshness of Gorean ideoligy to win the favor of a potential slut.

I would save my dog over some people I know. There has to be a value judgment in there somewhere. If it is just Free or slave, then is that not just following along like cattle?

quote:

Many are those that want to apply the philosophies when it's easy and beneficial, but not so much when they have to actually make a choice that in our culture of birth would be looked upon adversely.

What is easy is to use 1's and 0's. What is difficult is to make a judgment based upon a variety of information.

quote:

So I suspect what Leonidas is actually posing in this is ( To be or not to be "Gorean"?) That is the question.

I trust this reply was head on enough...

I do not see a right or wrong here, I see each Free person that was in charge making decisions based upon their personal code/ethics, and it not being against any of the actual philosophy. Now on Gor, there are customs and laws so of course the cattle would be jettisoned to save real people.

Just because someone is Free, does not automatically mean they are more valuable than even the dirt off the bottom of my shoes. Hell if I were a slaver, I would let all the Free drown, claim all the property and make myself a nice profit.

Live well,
Orion

I went back and re-examined Leonidas' question again to be sure I understood him correctly. I had assumed his question was directed toward a Captain that had no life experience on good ole Terra Firma as you put it. I went back and pulled his question and reposted it. I highlighted they key points to the question as I saw them. I am hoping this will bring my reasonings to the surface.

quote:

Original Leonidas

You're the Captain of the Titanic (the Gorean version). She's going down. There are enough lifeboats for all of the free men, and women, but if all of the free men and women are seated, the slaves will be left behind. Who makes it to safety, and who goes down with the ship?

Luckily many of us aren't really sure how we would truly react in an absolute life and death situation. In addition, I doubt the Gorean (the tarn flying book version as you were quick to chastise) instinct to survive would be any less then the Earthmans, but I also imagine their cultural learnings and or trappings would inspire a different mindset than that which we are seeing displayed here by a few. I do believe that Leonidas stated there are enough boats for ALL the free. So this might be a question in Gorean Morality. I didn't take it as a concept in a blended morality, but rather an either or.

One of the problems from this site is we end up with people that can't even spell Gor chiming in and stirring a pot when they have no concept of the ingredients. Take Dawn, a sweet open minded girl that seems genuinely interested in one day belonging to a man that might hold her to a type of mastery, she just has to figure out what that is. Not picking on Dawn, simply using her as an illustration, I suspect there are a great many in the same frame of mind as she.

We do discover a bit about ourselves and eachother though questions like this. Take Frank for instance, his statement certainly underlines his self serving interests and that he might not be much of a team player. That's ok, I wouldn't look to him for an assist, nor would he then receive one.

And your response seems typical to the Hybrid man with a slave he loves. But then again maybe I'm the one that doesn't think like a Gorean in this case, maybe this is the reason I stopped saying I am Gorean and leave that to the eye of the beholder.

Ask yourself this Orion; by his comment Frank obviously doesn't give a shit about your slave or you for that matter. His loyalty must not even reside with any Home Stone other than he himself. Would you throw him out for the girl you love? You seem capable enough of ejecting him, would you for your slave? If so perhaps my sons and I should eject you both, so we can take our slaves along as well. Perhaps an all out brawl on the deck of a sinking ship in order to drag our slaves along is in order. But somehow I suspect a Gorean might find that something more likely seen in a Three Stooges Movie.

Trevelyan's Warrior Leadership is showing in his response, he has quickly observed and evaluated the situation and is making his best choice with information available. The question is, is his choice derived from a Gorean, Earthly or a Hybrid Morality? He appeared to be in favor of a reason so as to save his slave too. He used a war time example that was personally equitable to his cause to base his intended actions upon. He might be right in his choices, but will his choice be seen as a Gorean example of what to do?

The hard part of doing the war like example is that there are also senarios where slaves were left behind and instructed not to resist because we know most Goreans (again, tarn flyers in the books) wouldn't destroy profitable properties, and a slave is not a combatant. So you see, by attempting to take the slaves in his senario, a man was actually putting the slaves lives in greater danger.

I think the above bears thought as to the concepts we see in the Gorean Morality, Earth Morality and one of a Hybrid nature.

I would also suspect that like men on this globe, the Gorean sailor would have a plan for just such an occasion.

quote:

Original OrionTheWolf

Actual I would just fly everyone to safety on my tarn.

Interesting remark and it's timing would leave one to believe that it's motives leave something to be desired.

< Message edited by xBullx -- 1/12/2009 6:29:35 AM >

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull

I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

While some people are ruled by emotion, I suspect you'll find that I'm rather obdurate.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

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