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RE: Women and Children First - 1/31/2009 4:52:57 PM

IdiotMale

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Women and children first is a good Van Halen disc.

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RE: Women and Children First - 1/31/2009 4:53:03 PM

Kimveri

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Hello,

quote:

ORIGINAL: hopelessfool
Yes, but if the ship is of nothing but free and there are no slaves

No one said that.

I simply noted that the slaves on the Gorean boat would be kept infertile, as were nearly ALL slaves on Gor, & thus, are not to be considered by your sole standard of 'who is best for species survival'.

This was NOT a "last of the species" scenario, however.

The rest is irrelevant to the thread so I won't even begin to go there.

~Kimveri

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RE: Women and Children First - 1/31/2009 5:01:18 PM

hopelessfool

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Actually not all slaves were kept infertal, or breeding slaves would be a figment of ones imagination.

The thread topic was

You're the Captain of the Titanic (the Gorean version). She's going down. There are enough lifeboats for all of the free men, and women, but if all of the free men and women are seated, the slaves will be left behind. Who makes it to safety, and who goes down with the ship?

How Does The survival of people not matter?

IF there are slaves who can breed and there are 10 women over fifty who are free and cant sorry to me it makes more sense to take the slaves who can and not the ones who cant. The status of being free or not isnt the issues because one free can be enslaved and one enslaved can be made free. So once more status and being free or not is a moot point. Why? Because if its a life and death situation you dont have time for people to bitch well IM FREE So I get to do yada yada yada. There has to be a set line of rules. Being free isnt a set line of rules it adds to many variables to the scenerio. Hence why I am not adding the extra variables and leaving it in a set line of rules, Those who can bear children on the boat thoes who cant not on the boat. Its harsh its unfair and wah fucking Wah. Its how I as the capt, would handle it, if it got me killed it gets me killed. If The men swarm around me and threaten me with their mean looks and glares and saying your getting impaled it means just that. But the question is how best to play politics, Its not how best to answer the question with out pissing off the free men. The question is What would you do. So Im quite on topic. Im quite getting the point. Ive answered it as such. Find as many flaws and point out as many things about how it wouldnt work as you like.

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RE: Women and Children First - 1/31/2009 5:05:21 PM

xBullx

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-takes away Kim's bananas-

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RE: Women and Children First - 1/31/2009 5:21:24 PM

Kimveri

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...."figments of imagination".....yes, yes, I see....

Well, that changes the whole scenario! If it's a Gorean Titanic Slave Breeding Cruise then we free women have no worries as we would likely not be there. I never imagined such a likelihood. Thank you for clearing up my obvious misconstrual of the scenario Leonidas put forth.

*hands my remaining bananas to the man who wants more than he brought*

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RE: Women and Children First - 1/31/2009 6:02:10 PM

Daughtry

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quote:

...a figment of ones imagination

There is a small problem with this argument... the Gor novels are works of fiction, therefore its ALL a figment of one's imagination. If one is discussing something that happens in an entirely fictional scenario, one must stick to the rules of that particular fictional setting. You can't declare that the Captain would just have Scotty beam everyone up any more than you can drastically alter the scenario to make it a ship full of breeding ready slaves.

Sticking within the mentality of this particular genre... there are plenty of breedable free women safely ashore. Or even slaves that can be taken off slavewine. The survival of the species approach in a scenario where you have entire continents of Goreans ready, willing and able to continue propigation of the species, doesn't work.

On a larger scale, it makes sense to socially train your males from birth to act in a chivalrous manner and lay down their lives to save the females. One male can impregnate a large number of females at once, and human females do not normally breed in litters. (Despite what current headlines might indicate.) But that large scale instinct can be overcome on a short term small scale scenario such as a sinking boat. There are more fish in the sea for those that make it ashore.

Take a group of physically superior males, in a life or death situation, without a lifetime of chivalry training... I don't hold out much chance for any of the females, free or slave.

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RE: Women and Children First - 1/31/2009 6:09:37 PM

hopelessfool

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.... I never said EVERY slave is breedable, but the likely hood out of 100 slaves that one or two is breedable is a possibly. But Gosh Darn I forgot that using logic was against the rules in Gor. Saying that you know 100% no matter what not a single slave at all on the ship could breed wouldnt change my inital ruling. it would just make it so there were no slaves on the boats. However, if there were slaves that could breed and could breed more likely then a free woman the free woman would be left behind. If all the free women could breed and slaves could then the men who couldnt would be left behind. but as its been stated it doesnt really matter my opinion id be killed... But still my opinion stands, So Whos supposed to come impale me? I mean geeze ya threaten my life and dont hold to it.

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RE: Women and Children First - 1/31/2009 6:17:36 PM

Nemesys

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So, I guess the captain's best course of action would be to get everybody breeding right away.

Jarl Stubing never had it so good on his own "Love Boat".

< Message edited by Nemesys -- 1/31/2009 6:18:24 PM >

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RE: Women and Children First - 1/31/2009 6:23:39 PM

OrionTheWolf

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Your dishonesty was apparent from your first post and many of your previous posts here.

quote:

ORIGINAL: hopelessfool

.... I mean geeze ya threaten my life and dont hold to it.

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RE: Women and Children First - 1/31/2009 7:35:32 PM

blacksword404

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hopelessfool

.... I never said EVERY slave is breedable, but the likely hood out of 100 slaves that one or two is breedable is a possibly. But Gosh Darn I forgot that using logic was against the rules in Gor. Saying that you know 100% no matter what not a single slave at all on the ship could breed wouldnt change my inital ruling. it would just make it so there were no slaves on the boats. However, if there were slaves that could breed and could breed more likely then a free woman the free woman would be left behind. If all the free women could breed and slaves could then the men who couldnt would be left behind. but as its been stated it doesnt really matter my opinion id be killed... But still my opinion stands, So Whos supposed to come impale me? I mean geeze ya threaten my life and dont hold to it.

You make it to be Captain by moving up or like in Tarl's case you kill the right man. You stay Captain because you have men that will follow your command. You would not stay Captain long at all. No matter how i look at it your solution just does not make sense. The way you have it set up you would in the end have the maximum amount of casualties. With the vast majority of the FM drowned. Lifeboats full of slaves and FW and a few men. And then once they make it to land and get attacked by beast they all would likely die. You would need way more men on the boat to keep more people alive.

Some would say slaves are not for breeding Free. So whether or not slaves are able to have children is irrelevant. That's what FW are for.

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RE: Women and Children First - 1/31/2009 7:43:01 PM

hopelessfool

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And if all the slaves are left behind and the free make it to land, how likely are the free women going to remain free with so many slaves lost on the ship. Most of them would end up as slaves because men are acustomed to the way of life slavery offers them, and why go and pay good money for a new slave when theres multiple women right there in front of you free for the taking. Hence why it shouldnt be a matter of status, because the likely scenario is the free ending as slaves. And according to you the women cant defend themselves. According to me a woman can and will when presented with a life threatening situation. If im about to be attacked im going to fight to keep that from happening, just as you would. But It doesnt matter my opinion. It seems that i havent earned my gorean merit badge just yet, so after the personal attacks are done and over with from monkey one and two, its left with lets see how many holes we can poke into it, not an actual debate over what it is my way is. But then any one who had an opinion that made the free men work for their title of free man and living of honor instead of coward got the same treatment. And Here I thought i was specially hated on this side.

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" I have nothing left to give, I have found the perfect end, You remain to make it hurt, disappear in to the dirt, carry me to heavens arms.....Dear Agony Just let go of me, suffer slowly, is this the way its gotta be, Dear Agony...."

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RE: Women and Children First - 1/31/2009 7:50:55 PM

OrionTheWolf

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Poke in what? You kept changing your points and now going in a circle. Your arguement amounts to "neener, neener, neener" and sticking your tongue out. You are not hated, but you are probably laughed at a bit. I know you give me a few chuckles.

quote:

ORIGINAL: hopelessfool

And if all the slaves are left behind and the free make it to land, how likely are the free women going to remain free with so many slaves lost on the ship. Most of them would end up as slaves because men are acustomed to the way of life slavery offers them, and why go and pay good money for a new slave when theres multiple women right there in front of you free for the taking. Hence why it shouldnt be a matter of status, because the likely scenario is the free ending as slaves. And according to you the women cant defend themselves. According to me a woman can and will when presented with a life threatening situation. If im about to be attacked im going to fight to keep that from happening, just as you would. But It doesnt matter my opinion. It seems that i havent earned my gorean merit badge just yet, so after the personal attacks are done and over with from monkey one and two, its left with lets see how many holes we can poke into it, not an actual debate over what it is my way is. But then any one who had an opinion that made the free men work for their title of free man and living of honor instead of coward got the same treatment. And Here I thought i was specially hated on this side.

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RE: Women and Children First - 1/31/2009 9:00:25 PM

eponavet

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i have been reading this thread with interest, not commenting because i know am not really knowledgable about the specifics, but is hopeless correct in her asseessment that the FW will likely end up as slaves regardless? From what i have read here regarding Gorean lore (or "word"...not sure of the correct term), it seems that the Free would certainly get the seats first. But when she brought up that point, i wanted to ask....in this scenario, is that the most probable outcome for the women in general? Not that in the heat of the moment it would matter. The Captain would follow protocol, most people would do the same and some people (Free and slave probably, if the slaves were not physically chained in the cargo area or wherever) would do different if they saw fit. So most Free would get their seats...but when the lifeboats reached shore and things were sorted out, calmed down etc., would most women simply assume (or be forced into) the role of their deceased counterparts? (counterpart is not the right term, i am aware, but another word is not coming to mind)

< Message edited by eponavet -- 1/31/2009 9:08:24 PM >

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RE: Women and Children First - 1/31/2009 9:07:10 PM

eponavet

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double post...i'm bad with that edit button

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RE: Women and Children First - 1/31/2009 10:25:12 PM

blacksword404

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eponavet

i have been reading this thread with interest, not commenting because i know am not really knowledgable about the specifics, but is hopeless correct in her asseessment that the FW will likely end up as slaves regardless? From what i have read here regarding Gorean lore (or "word"...not sure of the correct term), it seems that the Free would certainly get the seats first. But when she brought up that point, i wanted to ask....in this scenario, is that the most probable outcome for the women in general? Not that in the heat of the moment it would matter. The Captain would follow protocol, most people would do the same and some people (Free and slave probably, if the slaves were not physically chained in the cargo area or wherever) would do different if they saw fit. So most Free would get their seats...but when the lifeboats reached shore and things were sorted out, calmed down etc., would most women simply assume (or be forced into) the role of their deceased counterparts? (counterpart is not the right term, i am aware, but another word is not coming to mind)

Not likely. Although they could. My guess is each man brought their FC. So what Gorean Man is going to sit there and watch another enslave his woman? And about the only ones who might would be FW who have no protector.

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Tu fellas magnus penum meum...iterum

Siles servum et non moves.
Ego sum erus.

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RE: Women and Children First - 2/1/2009 6:30:06 AM

barelynangel

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Eponavet

This is my understanding of the basics from the books -- yes, there are always exceptions -- First of all, the FW of Gor outnumber the slaves of Gor by a lot. Therefore, Men were not in such a frenzy to have slaves that they wouldn't be able to exist without them. As many Gorean Men did just that. Secondly, Men don't enslave women within their own Home Stone or usually their city -- it would be reasonable to believe most people on the boat would be of the same city and the women would be traveling (because most FW were protected by their Men) with Men of their family and/or city. Seeing that stranger is a word for enemy on Gor, i don't see Gorean Men having jumped on a ship with strangers from another city with their FW unless it couldn't be avoided. Think of FW as oh hell what's a good comparison -- perhaps women from the 17-1800's they were very protected, they were very strictly held to certain ways and rules of behavior, they usually went from father or brother to FC, they were used as bartering tools with FC's in mind etc. They were free but many times they were locked, to me, harsher in their status than slave ever could be. Therefore, i really doubt Men would bring their FW on a boat they knew was enemy territory or possibility of same where their FW had to worry about being enslaved by the other guests. Thirdly, most FW were very capable of serving Men as many FW did just that, as slaves did other than the sexual freedom. FW served many times within the homes along the sides of slaves if they were needed --- they didn't serve LIKE slaves but they did serve and were taught many many ways of slaves just in case they were ever enslaved. But yes, they easily fell into serving Men when slaves were unavailable, they just didn't serve LIKE slaves and it wasn't a sexual serving or sexual use as slaves usually did. Grins, Gorean Men are primal but i believe they were capable of going without sex or having a slut around for a while if they had no FC to slack their lust upon.

To me, the issue that may come up is the lifeboat reaching land and whereever they land may be hostile towards their City and the FW could be endanger of being enslaved if the Men were incapable of protecting them. FW were very highly esteemed on Gor -- they were not just "women" who were the same as a slave. The status of FW was a very exalted status on Gor. I would say the percentage was pretty low they would be enslaved by other Men on the boat simply becuase the slaves were not there to serve. For lack of better words, that was not the message of the books, which many don't get.

This is why a person needs to read the books as there are many people who decide to comment about Gor (because they can on this board is usually their reason when asked why they post about something they have no knowledge about) without knowing Gor and if you don't know the books you are susceptible to their ignorance.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 2/1/2009 6:45:15 AM >

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RE: Women and Children First - 2/1/2009 7:13:33 AM

eponavet

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Thanks angel for taking the time to explain it better for me. The only thing i'll say is that media mail is slower than the Pony Express!

But yea, it is hard to become knowledgable and formulate reasonable opinions on an ideology or philosophy without having read the words that inspired it. (i do know i can get the books as downloads, but there is something about actually, physically curling up with a book that sitting at my computer, staring at a screen and turning virutal pages just can't compare to....)

< Message edited by eponavet -- 2/1/2009 7:14:32 AM >

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RE: Women and Children First - 2/1/2009 1:29:08 PM

Trevelyan

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eponavet,

All of the books are newly in print. Order them at Amazon.com, you will have them in a few days, and you can curl to your heart's content.

Trevelyan

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"In short the differences between the men of Earth and those of Gor were almost certain to be primarily cultural, and not physiological."
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RE: Women and Children First - 2/1/2009 1:36:00 PM

eponavet

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Thank You Trevelyn for the information about Amazon.com

i ordered them through abe books - like over 10 days ago! I thought i got a good deal, since i only paid $10 for the first 3 books and $6 shipping....and while i always say needed to learn more patience, this feels ridiculous, ESPECIALLY in this age of instant info online! But it has been enlightening to read posts here, make mental - and written notes of things i want to find out more about as i read the books and ask more questions of those who know more. I thought ordering the first 3 books would be fine at first. I'm thinking i should order a few more NOW, since if i'm lucky, i'll have them by the time i finish the first 3!

< Message edited by eponavet -- 2/1/2009 1:40:25 PM >

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RE: Women and Children First - 2/1/2009 2:41:30 PM

Trevelyan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

Tal Trevelyan,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trevelyan

And besides, if I save them, I think all of those slaves become mine.

I'm reading along in your post and thinking , damn these guys that are married to their slaves, they keep trying to press on this particular. So I'mn going along thinking that you get "most" of it. Then you made the comment above and I smiled. That's Gorean thinking that serves well and enough for me.

quote:

PS - If one of the slaves I am trying to save gets morally conflicted because a free man is risking his life to try to save her, she had better still obey me perfectly as I attempt to do so. If she does not, I have no problem throwing her over the side, presumably to her death, to get her out of my way. After all, she is only a slave.

I have a slave that resembles the above comment. She'll get it in due time I suspect, if not she knows my concept of "Corrective Training". But I rather doubt she'd interfere with the evac. She'd just read to much into having excessive value in her opinion placed on her life. I gotta get her past that questioning the thinking of free thing. In due time, in due time. ( I know, I know more incessent prattling about my friggin' wench)

Tal my friend,

I know it weighs heavily on your mind that I married my slave long before I made her my slave, and have decided not to subsequently divorce her to fully conform to Gorean practice.

In all of my responses in this thread about how I would act as Captain of he Gorean Titanic, I was making the assumption that my slave was not on the ship, and therefore I had no need to save her. The only mention I made of her was what I would do with her once I got back home.

You and I agree that Gorean slaves are true slaves:

They are the property of and wholly subject to their owner.
They have no rights.
Anything can be done with or to them, for they are slaves.

You and I agree that Goreans typically do not love their slaves. They own them, and enjoy them, but they do not love them, at least not in a romantic sense.

I think that you and I also agree that there are numerous examples in the books of solidly Gorean men who do love their slaves. A few names that come to mind are Kamchak, Rask of Treve, Forkbeard, Hassan, Clitus Vitellius, Imnak, Jason, Drucus Rencius, and Teibar. Because they are Gorean men, their slaves, though loved, are kept in the strictest bondage. She may be loved, but she is a slave, and will be kept as a slave - perfectly, and in all ways.

As I outlined in post 338, there are many reasons why a man might want to save a slave -

simply because she is his property, and he will part with his property only on his own terms
because he loves her
because he resonates the defiant aspect of Gorean morality, and is simply not willing to resign himself to the power of Thassa
and simple avarice, which is the reason you see as Gorean.

I see all 4 of these reasons as fully, and gloriously Gorean.

I think the issue that troubles you is the challenge of keeping the proper perspective on the slave (the property of and wholly subject to her master, without rights, and to whom anything can be done) when in love with the slave. As I indicated above, many Goreans in the books do so successfully. What any man can do, I can do as well.

So, do not assume that I am soft with my slave, or fail to keep her in the strictest bondage, simply because I love her.

Regarding the fact that I am married to her, you are correct. It is not Gorean to marry your slave. If a Gorean wanted to make a slave his free companion, he would free her first. If it were 1979 again, I would not marry her, and I would enslave her much earlier than I did. But for many reasons I feel no need to explain, I am not going to divorce her now. I see that as no hinderance to keeping her perfectly as my slave. To the extent that she is legally my wife, I am un-Gorean, and she is kept in less than perfect slavery. Oh well. I think there are many here who claim to be Gorean with much less basis than I have, even with this acknowledged un-Gorean aspect.

Regarding your slave, I have no doubt that in due time she will indeed get it. I know a little bit about her master, and have a pretty high opinion of him.

I wish you well,

Trevelyan

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