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RE: Women and Children First

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RE: Women and Children First - 1/12/2009 6:38:14 AM   
Stroke


Posts: 109
Joined: 8/17/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cherylmazana

Would single free men stay on board to make room for men with loved slaves? Would they be willing to die for a slave they didn’t know, especially if slaves are considered nothing more than dogs, I certainly wouldn’t give up my place for a dog, and I am not sure if a free man would give up his place for someone else’s slave, his own slave maybe, but with the knowledge she would be sold? I suspect they would most likely retire to a dry area and instead die together while having sex.

Also Orion nice idea about the Tarns however if memory serves me right they dislike open water, so your Tarn wouldn’t be on a ship anyway.

Cheryl


Tal Cheryl,

If the seats in the boats were filled and a free was being left behind, I think that most free would demand that a slave be thrown overboard in order to make room for the free. That is the advantage of having free status over one who is viewed as nothing more than an animal. I do believe that most men would probably "attempt" to save as many slaves as possible, especially if they were their own property, but if it came down to free vs slave, the slave would most likely go swimming.

Although tarn's dislike water, if I recall correctly, Tarl got around that by keeping them in the hold of a roundship and only opening up the hatch when it was time for them to fly.

I wish you well,

Stroke

(in reply to Cherylmazana)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Women and Children First - 1/12/2009 7:06:56 AM   
Trevelyan


Posts: 526
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Mountain View, CA
Status: offline 		Tal Bull,

a quick comment -

In coming up with my answer I first tried to remember a similar situation from the book, and the fall of Ar's Station came to mind.  I remembered the event, but had forgotten the details.

I was suprised, on re-reading, that the slaves were brought along too. 

There was one comment, as Tarl and others are withdrawing through the city, to throw a slave to the Cosians, as it might slow them down for a moment.

Also, during the run to the piers, there were a number of free woman who could not make themselves leave the relative safety of the wall to make the run.  They were captured and enslaved by the Cosians.  No attempt is made to save them if they can't take action to save themselves, and Tarl even uses them as a distraction to the Cosians who are pressing the attack on the walkway.

I wish you well,

Trevelyan

_____________________________

"In short the differences between the men of Earth and those of Gor were almost certain to be primarily cultural, and not physiological."
Mercenaries of Gor

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Women and Children First - 1/12/2009 7:30:38 AM   
xBullx


Posts: 3278
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		Tal Trevelyan,

You and I would both assess the situation, formulate a plan and execute it to the best of our ability. Situation depending securing properties and equipment would seem prudent. And obviously attempting to save those unwilling to help themselves could cost additional lives; it's also possible that the free women you describe were actually escaping to their own personal chance at freedom (winks). I wasn't chastising your choice of examples, simply attempting to elaborate my point. Thanks for your comment.


_____________________________

Live well,

Bull

I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

While some people are ruled by emotion, I suspect you'll find that I'm rather obdurate.

(in reply to Trevelyan)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Women and Children First - 1/12/2009 8:17:01 AM   
blacksword404


Posts: 921
Joined: 1/4/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas

Ok, here's a question that I think will challenge us a bit.  One that puts a light on a (seemingly, anyway) stark contradiction between traditional (where we live) definitions of being a "good man" and a Gorean definition.

You're the Captain of the Titanic (the Gorean version).  She's going down.  There are enough lifeboats for all of the free men, and women, but if all of the free men and women are seated, the slaves will be left behind.  Who makes it to safety, and who goes down with the ship?

No rhetorical waffling and side-stepping if you please.  Confront the question head-on.



Well seeing that i am the Captain, all the Free get aboard the lifeboats. If a Free decides they would like their slave to take their place then ok. If you try to throw a Free over to make room for your slave, i will kill you. Order will be maintained. I will  stay behind with the ship and slaves. If i cannot find a way to save myself  then i guess i am fucked. If i do then i live, and will likely make a killing when i get those slaves to the block.

_____________________________

Don't fight him. Embrace your inner asshole.

Tu fellas magnus penum meum...iterum

Siles servum et non moves.
Ego sum erus.

The capacity to learn is a gift, the ability to learn a skill, the willingness to learn a choice. Dune HH

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Women and Children First - 1/12/2009 8:24:55 AM   
Zarius


Posts: 184
Joined: 2/9/2007
Status: offline 		Greetings

Interesting topic, thus far 3 pages worth….

I find it interesting that Gorean morality, states that slaves are but like property, a purse, a shirt, a dog, or anything else one owns…Which is as it is on Gor, and the question was a Gorean one, not an Earth one. To me, the simple answer is the free get on the lifeboats.. and property stay’s behind..

There may be exceptions such as the free who might give up their place on the lifeboat for a slave, that is the Frees right and their due. I hope to never have to choose, however, Free first, anything left over after that for property,  you pick which property.

I wish you all well
Zarius

In any discussion you can always "what if" or nitpick something to death

(in reply to blacksword404)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Women and Children First - 1/12/2009 8:30:56 AM   
amelliagrace


Posts: 1791
Joined: 8/4/2007
Status: offline 		FR -
As some have been touching upon....
Part of this is about the choice of the leadership, and part about personal choice, as well.
 
The Captain may be "in charge', but a situation such as the rapid sinking of a ship, or fleeing a city that is falling to the enemy, he is somewhat limited.  He makes the decisions, does his best to implement the plan..but... there pops up another of those big buts of life...
 
As some have mentioned, there are women who'd quickly sede their seat to one of their offspring.  Some individuals, would relinqish a seat to an individual that their own personal codes prompted them to see as being more worthy of the seat than they were.  Personal choice and self determination of this type would trump the guidelines dictated by the Captain.  As Bull (I think) pointed out, there is no point in trying to save someone who declines to be.
 
Cheryl makes an interesting point about the fate of many of the female survivors of the titanic.  In the scenario Leonidas provided, there was room for the Free in the lifeboats.  As he didn't specify Women only, I'm left to assume there was room for the Men as well.  Should that be the case, I have a feeling there'd be a few single men and women offering seats to children of the Free, if there were such present.  How many, well that would definitely be interesting to know.
 
Would slaves in the hold fight to get free?  Surely they would.  Would those slaves able to get to the deck attempt to survive?  Likely so.  Whether or not they did would be anyone's guess, but just because the deck was stacked against them, doesn't mean they wouldn't try, with everything they had.
 
As in anything else in life, personal choice will sometimes attempt to trump the dictates of "the powers that be".  Sometimes they'll even succeed.
 
It is interesting to take an opportunity such as this to reflect on one's own values and personality.  Me?  I'd not just roll over and die on command, without a struggle, were there no seat designated for me.  Yet, there have been two men in the course of my life that I'd have chosen to sink and die, if it meant they'd be safe.  Thing is, I am fairly certain that either one of those would have knocked me unconscious to get ME on the life boat.  (The phrase 'kicking and screaming" comes to mind.)  For my own offspring or loved one, would I be willing to toss a slave over the side?  Yeah.  Pretty or not, there it is.  For my own progeny, I'd give up my place.  Now, I'd like to say with certainty that I'd make sure the life boat situation boded well for them, or think of their chances upon rescue without me, but I'm not at all certain that I would.  Perhaps I'd be condemning them to slavery or poverty, as opposed to a watery death.  It is a sobering thought, and one that brings with it potential for much philosophical discussion.
 
The individual stories of those who were on Gor's Titanic would, I'm positive, have something in common with earth's Titanic.  The stories of specific individuals, what they did and didn't do, and the choices they made, say many things about both human nature, and about the fierceness with which some uphold their chosen codes and ethics.
 
Thanks, Leonidas, for an interesting thread indeed.
 
Grace

< Message edited by amelliagrace -- 1/12/2009 8:33:52 AM >

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Women and Children First - 1/12/2009 8:37:01 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 6595
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Tal Bull,

On Gor, likely all of the slaves would perish, as I stated. Would a love slave be sacrificed over a Free? Why not, if that Free is seen as having less value? I mean there were wars, duels, murder and various other things done because of the love of a slave.

As far as sacrificing certain individuals for my slave, that would depend upon the value I see in them and her.

As far as you doing anything concerning my answers, you can do as you wish.

Does being Free automatically mean more valuable than a slave? Interesting question, wouldn't you think? Sorry I do not see it as an all or nothing, if the situation is removed from the planet Gor.

Hell, in my current state of mind I would likely let everyone go down. Truth be told and all.

Live well,
Orion



_____________________________

Die, die glauben, erfordern keinen Beweis. Die, die zweifeln, kein Beweis genügen.

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Women and Children First - 1/12/2009 8:53:51 AM   
amelliagrace


Posts: 1791
Joined: 8/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Hell, in my current state of mind I would likely let everyone go down. Truth be told and all.



Oh my!  Been there, Orion, done that, got the blankety blank t-shirt, so to speak.
 
Seems to me that in your posts you've been mentioning something similar to what I have.  That being that sometimes personal choice will go against the dictates of those In Charge, times when personal choice will trump - or attempt to - the dictates of leadership.
 
One question which seems to me to be central to this discussion, though it hasn't been previously articulated in this manner, is, "If you want to do what is best for the Group, and save that which has the most value to The Group as a whole, is the better choice Free on the whole, or Slaves on the whole?"  To me, it seems inevitable that neither choice will be completely accurat in terms of the goal, when broken down into an individual person by person basis.
 
Regards-
Grace

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Women and Children First - 1/12/2009 8:55:56 AM   
Anarrus


Posts: 412
Joined: 11/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas

Ok, here's a question that I think will challenge us a bit.  One that puts a light on a (seemingly, anyway) stark contradiction between traditional (where we live) definitions of being a "good man" and a Gorean definition.

You're the Captain of the Titanic (the Gorean version).  She's going down.  There are enough lifeboats for all of the free men, and women, but if all of the free men and women are seated, the slaves will be left behind.  Who makes it to safety, and who goes down with the ship?

No rhetorical waffling and side-stepping if you please.  Confront the question head-on.



Tal Leonidas,

After giving this some more thought it seems pretty simple really.

Trevelyan's words taken from the books also made it a lot clearer. "Also, during the run to the piers, there were a number of free woman who could not make themselves leave the relative safety of the wall to make the run.  They were captured and enslaved by the Cosians.  No attempt is made to save them if they can't take action to save themselves, and Tarl even uses them as a distraction to the Cosians who are pressing the attack on the walkway."
 
As Captain, I'd observe everyone FM, FW and slave...anyone showing qualities of the slave morality during the "crisis" would lose their seat on a lifeboat to someone who didn't.

Though, my dog still gets a seat no matter what! :-)

Iwyw

Anarrus

PS.... for some reason the biblical saying "God helps those who help themselves" comes to mind too.

< Message edited by Anarrus -- 1/12/2009 9:13:13 AM >

_____________________________

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free."...Goethe
"Send lawyers, guns and money" ..Warren Zevon

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Women and Children First - 1/12/2009 9:15:26 AM   
Brule


Posts: 61
Joined: 11/1/2006
Status: offline 		Tal and Greetings,

This has been a very interesting and I think mistaken thread. I feel that many posts that have been made did not answer the original question that was asked and has caused several off side discussions. Again this is only My opinion.
It has been posted that everyone, slaves or Free, would do whatever they had to do to survive. That being Human nature I can understand that. It was posted that Free Men would be first then Free woman would be next and if room some slaves. That is something like what happened on the original ship, rich Women and Children were loaded on the life boats and loaded sparingly for their comfort. The slaves(imigrants) were locked in the lower decks to fend for themselves. Some did choose to go to their cabins and await their fate and others did what it took to give themselves a fighting chance.
The original question presented was a question that many could not answer because they have not the experience to answer. The Captain and crew had a duty to protect the passengers, wealthy or poor alike, in anyway within their power. Many can not understand what that means unless they have been put in that position and given that power. Someone with Military experience knows that they are often asked to give their lives defending those that may not deserve to live, Fireman my save the life that may not deserve it, police, Dr's, lawyers all  may do the same. It is a Duty that many do often. Tarl's choice to save the slaves wasn't a decission for that, it was a duty to save as many from the station as He could, the same duty that the Captain had and failed at.
It is Human nature to save one's self if at all possible. With that being said it is also Human nature for some to put others lives above theirs, a parent giving thier seat to a child. It is hard for some to understand that unless they themselves are parents but I don't know any parents that wouldn't do that.
As Captain I can see the Free in the boats first but also giving the task for any that can't fit into the boats to find things to lash together that will float to atleast try and survive. But to think that because there is not room in the boats that anyone will willingly just sit down and except that they are going down with the ship is unbelievable.
I think the biggest thing that needs to be reminded to everyone is that even if We all believe and live the ideas and beliefs based on the Gor books we are not on Gor and there are many differances. Even though I follow My beliefs I still believe deep in My core I feel that sometimes protecting others does come first. If I felt someone was threatening My slave or any other slave I would step in even if I thought I might be harmed and stop them, I wouldn't let them just cause she was a slave.

Again this is My opinion and Mine alone.

I normally only give my 2 cents and sorry that this ran to maybe a Dime.
Live well
Brule





(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Women and Children First - 1/12/2009 10:04:11 AM   
Stroke


Posts: 109
Joined: 8/17/2007
Status: offline 		Tal,

Okay, after further thought it occurred to me that FW were highly valued IF THEY WERE OF YOUR OWN HOME STONE. That is why it was okay to raid other towns or citys and steal their FW to make into slaves. In the Ar's Station example, those fleeing the Cosians were all of Ar's Station, therefore those FW would be shown the proper courtesy and protection of the local military. In a situation such as the Titanic, it is likely that those travelling are from various home stones, therefore the soldiers codes would change depending on which FW they encounter. For some they would fight to get them on a boat and for others they would be threatened at sword point. The Captain would still have a responsibility to all on board, but it is likely that different factions on board who were divided by their particular allegiances would make his job more difficult.

I wish you well,

Stroke

(in reply to Brule)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Women and Children First - 1/12/2009 10:13:17 AM   
amelliagrace


Posts: 1791
Joined: 8/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Stroke
The Captain would still have a responsibility to all on board, but it is likely that different factions on board who were divided by their particular allegiances would make his job more difficult.


Hi, Stroke -
There is good reason for that saying, "It's lonely at the top."
 
Grace

(in reply to Stroke)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Women and Children First - 1/12/2009 11:08:00 AM   
Jahnaca


Posts: 708
Joined: 8/28/2006
Status: offline 		(fr)

Greetings

Certainly the text book answer would be, free are given priority access to the life boats.

Goreans know though that text book isn’t always what is going to happen.  Human nature is human nature.  We are talking about almost certain death due to the distance from land (humanly impossible to swim) and frigid rough seas, for those unlucky enough to find themselves without a life boat of some sort.  Primal human instinct will come into play for all players.  Much will depend on WHO someone is and not just our rendition of the “Gorean philosophy.”

Our Captain may well be a coward in the face of such a situation and jump on board the first life boat, or maybe not.  He may well ignore his duty, he might not.  The passengers may well leap into the first boat they see, be they free and or slave in a bid to save their own lives, or they may toss others in before them, be they free or slave.  Some might take preference over legal status, others might not.  Some might look at gender and age and others won’t.  Some might obey the Captain’s orders others disregard them.  That is human nature.

The notion that a slave’s life is automatically worthless is not exactly correct.  There are many situations in the series that discounts that notion.  In some cases slaves are set free of their bonds and left to make it on their own, some even assisted by free.  Some are bound and left as bounty thus ensuring their lives even in the chains of someone else.  Much depends on the situation and who is involved.  Goreans in the books are no more or less human then we are.  In point of fact I can not really reference off the top of my head any book situation where slaves were merely human meat shields or totally dismissed as worthless like rats.

Jahna


_____________________________

Mass-produced human beings are attractive only to those who expect to be their benevolent mass producers. John Norman

(in reply to amelliagrace)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Women and Children First - 1/12/2009 11:30:25 AM   
opposingtwilight


Posts: 678
Joined: 6/13/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

One of the problems from this site is we end up with people that can't even spell Gor chiming in and stirring a pot when they have no concept of the ingredients. Take Dawn, a sweet open minded girl that seems genuinely interested in one day belonging to a man that might hold her to a type of mastery, she just has to figure out what that is. Not picking on Dawn, simply using her as an illustration, I suspect there are a great many in the same frame of mind as she.



Wow, before you start using me as an illustration, I'd suggest you know what you're actually talking about.

I am a sweet, open minded girl. You got that much right, at least but I have never expressed any interest in "belonging to a man that might hold me to a type of mastery". In fact, I have turned down every single man who expressed an interest in being my master, yourself included. (Several times, I might add.)

I'm not a slave. I don't pretend to be a slave. I tried that life for 5 years and one of the many things I learned about myself in that time is that I am not a slave. In the last 8 months I have had to learn to be okay with that; to be okay with redefining who and what I am.

I don't claim to be Gorean either (How could I, when no one can quite agree what being Gorean actually means?) but I have read the books (yes, more than once; I may not be a slave but evidently I am a masochist), I can spell "Gor" and I haven't stirred the pot around here in a long time. If you have an issue with me, take it up privately.

The public pot shots just make you look pissy because you couldn't get me in your collar.

edited to add

I know I've opened myself up for attack by making this post and frankly, I don't give a damn.

edited a few more times because typos are fun


< Message edited by opposingtwilight -- 1/12/2009 11:39:45 AM >

_____________________________


(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Women and Children First - 1/12/2009 1:55:25 PM   
xBullx


Posts: 3278
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		Well hello Dawn,

Since you don't give a damn I'll respond to your comments.

If it helps you in your struggles I wouldn't have even mentioned you had you not replied already to the topic. You tend to make yourself an adequate example in cases such as this. I recall you even saying you were never coming back to the Gorean board again, and then, well.... 

I stand by what I said about you. We've had enough conversation that I am able to form a valid opinion of you; unless you were less than truthful in our interactions. We both know that the first time I contacted you privately it was to discover if you were someone else from down in NC. How you viewed my intentions is your own affair.

It might also bear mention that considering my normal demeanor one might say I was quite nice to you.

I rather doubt it was a pot shot as you suggest, merely an illustration as I suggested, you are only moderately relevant to the topic, and as a side note it is an excess degree of self importance that is often the cause for a person to assume that everything comes down to them. I find it interesting that you only remember a version of reality that serves your vindictive purposes. And your post here goes quite a long way towards validating my point. Thanks for the assist.

Concurrently, did you think that people would find it unusual that a man might investigate the possiblity of a potential wench? Perhaps you were you hoping to one up me or maybe your intent here is to humiliate me. You might want to remember that there is another person that knows much of what we discussed.

Oh, and I'd keep this private but everytime I do converse with you privately it seems you think I'm hitting on you.

Now considering the comments about stirring the pot, perhaps we should get this subject back on topic.


quote:

ORIGINAL: opposingtwilight

quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

One of the problems from this site is we end up with people that can't even spell Gor chiming in and stirring a pot when they have no concept of the ingredients. Take Dawn, a sweet open minded girl that seems genuinely interested in one day belonging to a man that might hold her to a type of mastery, she just has to figure out what that is. Not picking on Dawn, simply using her as an illustration, I suspect there are a great many in the same frame of mind as she.



Wow, before you start using me as an illustration, I'd suggest you know what you're actually talking about.

I am a sweet, open minded girl. You got that much right, at least but I have never expressed any interest in "belonging to a man that might hold me to a type of mastery". In fact, I have turned down every single man who expressed an interest in being my master, yourself included. (Several times, I might add.)

I'm not a slave. I don't pretend to be a slave. I tried that life for 5 years and one of the many things I learned about myself in that time is that I am not a slave. In the last 8 months I have had to learn to be okay with that; to be okay with redefining who and what I am.

I don't claim to be Gorean either (How could I, when no one can quite agree what being Gorean actually means?) but I have read the books (yes, more than once; I may not be a slave but evidently I am a masochist), I can spell "Gor" and I haven't stirred the pot around here in a long time. If you have an issue with me, take it up privately.

The public pot shots just make you look pissy because you couldn't get me in your collar.

edited to add

I know I've opened myself up for attack by making this post and frankly, I don't give a damn.

edited a few more times because typos are fun



_____________________________

Live well,

Bull

I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

While some people are ruled by emotion, I suspect you'll find that I'm rather obdurate.

(in reply to opposingtwilight)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Women and Children First - 1/12/2009 1:57:59 PM   
xBullx


Posts: 3278
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		Hello Jahnaca,

I am going to remind you of a quote from Leonidas...

It might also be important to remember that Leonidas didn't say what if a Gorean was Captain of the actual Titanic, but rather what would happen on a Gorean Titanic. That would indicate to me that the Thassa was involved and not the Atlantic.


quote:



No rhetorical waffling and side-stepping if you please.  Confront the question head-on.



< Message edited by xBullx -- 1/12/2009 2:03:19 PM >

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull

I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

While some people are ruled by emotion, I suspect you'll find that I'm rather obdurate.

(in reply to Jahnaca)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Women and Children First - 1/12/2009 2:12:21 PM   
opposingtwilight


Posts: 678
Joined: 6/13/2008
Status: offline 		The first time you messaged me was to find out if I was someone else. So, after you established that wasn't the case, why did you continue to contact me?

As for your "valid" opinion of me based on our previous conversations; how would you know me at all? Our conversations have pretty much consisted of you trying to get me interested in being your slave girl and me telling you to sod off. The only real conversation I had with anyone that you might have been privvy to was when I gave ishy tips for making her hair softer and helping it to grow out longer.

(Of course there have also been my posts here on the forum but I've never once said that I was seeking a master, so it couldn't be that.)

Every other man who expressed an interest in owning me took no for an answer the first time I gave it to him. You, on the other hand, had to be told repeatedly. What else am I to read from your intentions when you ask me questions regarding whether or not I have ever considered what it would be like to be ishy's sister? Or when you tell me that if you were to have sex with me, it would be different than when you had sex with ishy because we are two different girls? Or how about when you tried to get me to think about life on your farm because I casually mentioned I'd never milked a goat before? (Yeah, goat milking has so much appeal.)

The last time I shot you down, you told me the reason you kept pursuing me is because you thought I was afraid to submit to you out of fear that you would leave me and you wanted to prove otherwise. You expressed surprise at my reaction when I told you fear of abandonment was the last reason I wasn't interested in being your slave.

I don't have to humiliate you, Bull. You can do that all by yourself.

I'm not going to write anymore in regards to this though because its really not important. I post on this forum because I like Goreans even if I don't necessarily want to be one.

< Message edited by opposingtwilight -- 1/12/2009 2:13:31 PM >

_____________________________


(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Women and Children First - 1/12/2009 2:34:39 PM   
xBullx


Posts: 3278
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		Your distortions of the truth do not alter the facts.

As I pointed out there is another that knows all to well what was said and what was even my intent.

You have a nice day girl...

< Message edited by xBullx -- 1/12/2009 2:43:32 PM >

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull

I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

While some people are ruled by emotion, I suspect you'll find that I'm rather obdurate.

(in reply to opposingtwilight)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Women and Children First - 1/12/2009 2:38:18 PM   
opposingtwilight


Posts: 678
Joined: 6/13/2008
Status: offline 		Seriously, let it go.

I wish you well. 

< Message edited by opposingtwilight -- 1/12/2009 2:55:15 PM >

_____________________________


(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Women and Children First - 1/12/2009 2:59:47 PM   
LarabysLair


Posts: 154
Joined: 5/29/2008
Status: offline 		Wow! Just wow!

What an opinion to be had of other people unlike onesself. Blanket statements such as this display so much prejudice and ignorance.

LL

_____________________________

"The free woman," I said, "lies down and waits to see what will happen. The female slave kneels beside her Master and begs to please him. The free woman deems it sufficient that she should exist, the slave girl ... is expected to excel." - savages p197

(in reply to amelliagrace)
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